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Spire of Eternity

m4rt1n

Immortal
To be a lone contrarian voice I think that the Spire is fun and good value - but I say that as a hardcore fighter who fights Tournament to ~4k-6k most weeks.

The Squad Sizes are bigger than people are used to in the Tournament, that is true. However in a Tournament province you fight 4 battles to get 1 prize. In the Spire every single encounter gives you a prize. So to compare apples with apples divide the Spire SS by 4 and its comparable. Thus if SS in Spire is 3x your regular SS then comparing it to Tournament the SS is equivalent to the 15th province.

I manual fight the spire for some of them, but losses are impossible to avoid when you start getting a 2nd and 3rd wave using your first set of troops and have varying opponents of sometimes 4 or more differing troop types. Even with careful manual fighting I lose over 50% of troops on those.
 

MinMax Gamer

Illusionist
Of course you can win kp in tournament but again its not either/or. Do both. Where it's efficient do Tournament and where it's not do Spire. If you drop your Tournament participation somewhat then it will be the latest, hardest, least efficient provinces you drop. E.g. Sometimes I do provide 50 in tournament that is 2.5x SS per battle. 100x SS for 11kp. Spire is massively more efficient than that.

In Spire fragments are the booby prize sure. But the other prizes are useful: Time, CCs (which are worth multiple KPs each) and the buildings last forever. I find as well as buildings CCs to be the most valuable prize. I used to run out of CCs because I craft every military building I can and would run out. From Academy you are restricted at 4 CCs per day maximum, it is impossible to get more without spending time or diamonds. Via the set you can in perpetuity get more, and in battles you can win more too.
All good points. A lot of people are complaining that they can't "complete" the Spire because it's too expensive - and by complete this means running through all 3 levels. But very few (if any) people in the later game "complete" tournaments either - that would mean running 60+ provinces through all 6*. That is very expensive as well, and arguably incremental rewards for that would be even worse.

You don't have to "complete" the whole thing to reap benefits. There are always diminishing returns, so stop at your sweet spot - for some people that would be a few encounters, for some it will be L1, but some would want (and be able to) do all 3 levels.

Also, if you do more negotiation in later stages of the Spire you reduce overlap with tournaments (well, assuming you're fighting), and you can dump resources that you have little need for in the end game - coins, mana, seeds, sentients. It is a quite viable strategy which seems to be relatively balanced with respect to diamonds (i.e. a few times you want to buy extra turn is roughly compensated by a few times you win diamonds).
 

valle

Soothsayer
I manual fight the spire for some of them, but losses are impossible to avoid when you start getting a 2nd and 3rd wave using your first set of troops and have varying opponents of sometimes 4 or more differing troop types. Even with careful manual fighting I lose over 50% of troops on those.

The solution is simple, don't fight 'impossible' battles. For a 3-wave battle (and most 2-wave) I only fight (always auto) if I can get a good match against all the waves. If not then negotiate. No wonder people complain if they do suicide fights. The trick is to know when to fight and when to negitiate. And negotiations are actually very cheap compared to the costs of catering high number provinces in tournament.
 

m4rt1n

Immortal
The solution is simple, don't fight 'impossible' battles. For a 3-wave battle (and most 2-wave) I only fight (always auto) if I can get a good match against all the waves. If not then negotiate. No wonder people complain if they do suicide fights. The trick is to know when to fight and when to negitiate. And negotiations are actually very cheap compared to the costs of catering high number provinces in tournament.

I don't do suicide fights, I was merely making an example for my manual fighting and have not lost one yet. I just said they are expensive and can lose me up to 50% of my entering squads. Compare that to the negotiations, sometimes up to 8 different types and only 3 goes, now that is suicide on goods unless you spend diamonds for sometimes up to 4 extra tries using logic. Luck is required in a big way on the first set of goods placed.
 

valle

Soothsayer
I don't do suicide fights, I was merely making an example for my manual fighting and have not lost one yet. I just said they are expensive and can lose me up to 50% of my entering squads.

Well, losing up to 50% is suicide fighting as your losses will be unsustainable in the long run. Don't do such fights, Do only fights where your losses don't go over about 10% or something like that. 20% losses for a three way fight might be acceptable.


Compare that to the negotiations, sometimes up to 8 different types and only 3 goes, now that is suicide on goods unless you spend diamonds for sometimes up to 4 extra tries using logic. Luck is required in a big way on the first set of goods placed.

Sure luck is required, but if you cancel and restart when you got unlucky results you can usually manage it in three tries after a few restarts. And as it's not that expensive I think it's a fair price for the rewards. Those end encounters usually have diamonds in the price list, and offering some goods for a 10 - 50% chance to win diamonds is a good trade for me at least.
 

DeletedUser4149

Guest
interesting debate above between m4rt1n and valle. maybe they should settle this like gentlemen by duking it out in the ring?
i'm kidding, of course.:D
i'm sure a lot depends on how you've shaped your cities.
i think that negotiating a little more often might be better for my elf that is lower on troops but has more goods while combat is usually a better solution for my human.
i don't normally make a habit of preaching racial superiority but i've gotta say - humans rule!
at least on the battlefield.
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
I don't do suicide fights, I was merely making an example for my manual fighting and have not lost one yet. I just said they are expensive and can lose me up to 50% of my entering squads. Compare that to the negotiations, sometimes up to 8 different types and only 3 goes, now that is suicide on goods unless you spend diamonds for sometimes up to 4 extra tries using logic. Luck is required in a big way on the first set of goods placed.
I have never needed 4 extra tries and normally don't need any extra and will restart if I'm unlucky.

There is a lot of logic involved in the Mastermind style game. I'm surprised by those who say there isn't. And when you have 8 goods on offer you will almost certainly get a good number of reds in round 1. I prefer reds to greens in round 1. As a result you can narrow it down rapidly, hopefully get greens and ambers in R2 and then hopefully figure out the ambers in R3. Even for Map 3 big boss I've never spent more than 50 diamonds and for the chance of Genie or other big prizes that's worthwhile.
 

DeletedUser6357

Guest
In Spire fragments are the booby prize sure.
After collecting 50,000 or 100,000 fragments in a few months, what will you do?
By collecting 40-50 items per set, or 5-6 sets, what will you do with them?
And these are the things that happen most often.
I am the one who went through the first week. Only the first stage is worth the effort - if you are lucky, you can get any prize from the mysterious chests. If you are not lucky enough to play the spy until the end, there is no use.
I get about 200+ KP from the tournament every week - I always have a place for them in AW.
 

Hekata

Summoner
Speaking of mystery chests, how do they work exactly? Because I just got lucky enough to get 3 in row but they all had the exact same prizes and pretty meh ones compared to what I saw reported her. And this is at level 2. 3x this same chest. Shouldn't prizes at level 2 be better?
upload_2019-9-19_17-28-40.png
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
After collecting 500 EE spells what will you do with them?

The other prizes are all useful. Time is great IMO. CCs are great IMO and can produce KPs or other useful stuff in the academy. The buildings are great. If I can get 6 sets I will place them all - and have increased my base daily CC production by 150%. If I can get enough Mana Plants to sell my Mana Huts I will.
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
Speaking of mystery chests, how do they work exactly? Because I just got lucky enough to get 3 in row but they all had the exact same prizes and pretty meh ones compared to what I saw reported her. And this is at level 2. 3x this same chest. Shouldn't prizes at level 2 be better?
View attachment 3972
There are different chests randomly available. The purple chest seems to be the best and includes a 20% chance of a Library.

The rewards are comparable between the three maps and you can get all good prizes on the first level but that's comparable to tournament.

Province 10 in tournament has a base SS of half your SS and rewards 5kp in round 2 and 6kp in round 5.
Province 50 in tournament has a base SS of two and a half times tour SS and rewards 5kp in round 2 and 6kp in round 5.
 

DeletedUser6357

Guest
Province 50 in tournament has a .... and rewards 5kp in round 2 and 6kp in round 5.
Man, or I'm too lazy, or you're a maniac / masochist - I've never thought of going further than a second round for 50 provinces. How long does it take you each week?
I can't imagine this even if I just press the catering button. :D
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
You will also have a massive increase in T2 production that many people have in short supply.
Endless Scrolls gives a great output/tile and is T2 as you said.

Mana Plant gives the best mana/tile ratio in the entire game AFAIK for a building that can be built repeatedly [ie excluding Carnival]

Gum Tree outputting 1k of Sentient in 1 tile, albeit only T4, is useful

The Gate is useful for free T6 but this is the only one that is not as efficient as manufacturing by my maths.
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
Man, or I'm too lazy, or you're a maniac / masochist - I've never thought of going further than a second round for 50 provinces. How long does it take you each week?
I can't imagine this even if I just press the catering button. :D
About 2 hours 5 times probably, if you put aside 2 minutes per province. Possibly less.

I don't do that every week! Though I have done it, the point was that there is no rule that the harder the challenge the greater the reward - you can get cheap and easy rewards in both tournament and spire, then if you want more of the same each week it gets harder - I don't see any harm in that. I appreciate the challenge and the opportunity to earn more, I don't expect it all on a plate.
 

DeletedUser8632

Guest
All good points. A lot of people are complaining that they can't "complete" the Spire because it's too expensive -

Sure luck is required, but if you cancel and restart when you got unlucky results you can usually manage it in three tries after a few restarts. And as it's not that expensive I think it's a fair price for the rewards. Those end encounters usually have diamonds in the price list, and offering some goods for a 10 - 50% chance to win diamonds is a good trade for me at least.

Look, I'm gonna be very blunt. I understand that the Spire is an opportunity for players who have nothing else to do to obsess about. But as a game mechanic it is utterly use- and pointless for non-endgame players. Me, in Orcs, I try to get enough troops to get a decent result in the weekly tournament. The Spire is wiping me out - both resource or troop-wise - before I can get even close to anything remotely worth the effort and input. (And - for the record - @m4rt1n is not saving his troops for ranking points, he is saving them to lead his fellowship to good tournament results and frequently scores in the several thousands range to help his FS).

Yeah, sure, I can do Level 1. For what? Each and every price in L1 I can get cheaper and with less effort in the Magic Academy. Without losing troops or resources. L2 is already forbiddingly expensive for mid-game players.

So, please, stop pretending the Spire is of any value to players unless they have no other concerns than when the next Chapter is coming out because they are done with everything else. For players who are actually still building a city its utterly worthless.
 

Hekata

Summoner
@randblade While your comparison of the difficulty of the tournament rounds vs the difficulty of the Spire may be correct, the BIG difference is the random aspect of the Spire. In tournaments I know exactly the amount of effort (troops and goods) I need to get to my goal. If I want a certain amount of KPs (or spells, or relics...) from it I know exactly how many provinces I have to do to get them. For the Spire you don't know any of it AFAIK and the rewards are random. So while I might think that doing level 1 of the Spire would be forth it for...let's say 12 CC, there is no guaranty I will get them. I might end up with 3000k SF and I don't need them so all my effort was not worth it for me. That s the main problem of the Spire imo. Everything is random. If people knew there is a guaranteed prize at the end of each level, then they might decide: "Ok I want that prize so I'm going to do it". Like they do for tournaments. Players want that blueprint so if the are lucky enough to be in a FS that has that potential they keep doing it week after week. I could do the Spire for 20 weeks and end up with nothing but useless prizes while leaving tons of good/troops there.
In short, tournaments let you plan and improve your game/city, the Spire can help if you are very lucky or it can just ruin you. Personally I don't like games that are based on purely luck. And I always though of this game of a game of planning which it's becoming less and less it seems.
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
Look, I'm gonna be very blunt. I understand that the Spire is an opportunity for players who have nothing else to do to obsess about. But as a game mechanic it is utterly use- and pointless for non-endgame players. Me, in Orcs, I try to get enough troops to get a decent result in the weekly tournament. The Spire is wiping me out - both resource or troop-wise - before I can get even close to anything remotely worth the effort and input. (And - for the record - @m4rt1n is not saving his troops for ranking points, he is saving them to lead his fellowship to good tournament results and frequently scores in the several thousands range to help his FS).

Yeah, sure, I can do Level 1. For what? Each and every price in L1 I can get cheaper and with less effort in the Magic Academy. Without losing troops or resources. L2 is already forbiddingly expensive for mid-game players.

So, please, stop pretending the Spire is of any value to players unless they have no other concerns than when the next Chapter is coming out because they are done with everything else. For players who are actually still building a city its utterly worthless.
You can win CCs in the Academy? Beyond the 4 per day that can be crafted? How?

You can win the buildings in the Academy? How?

So what if level 2 is expensive - don't do it if its too expensive! Do you do 100% of your Tournament provinces to 6* every week? If not, why not?
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
@randblade While your comparison of the difficulty of the tournament rounds vs the difficulty of the Spire may be correct, the BIG difference is the random aspect of the Spire. In tournaments I know exactly the amount of effort (troops and goods) I need to get to my goal. If I want a certain amount of KPs (or spells, or relics...) from it I know exactly how many provinces I have to do to get them. For the Spire you don't know any of it AFAIK and the rewards are random. So while I might think that doing level 1 of the Spire would be forth it for...let's say 12 CC, there is no guaranty I will get them. I might end up with 3000k SF and I don't need them so all my effort was not worth it for me. That s the main problem of the Spire imo. Everything is random. If people knew there is a guaranteed prize at the end of each level, then they might decide: "Ok I want that prize so I'm going to do it". Like they do for tournaments. Players want that blueprint so if the are lucky enough to be in a FS that has that potential they keep doing it week after week. I could do the Spire for 20 weeks and end up with nothing but useless prizes while leaving tons of good/troops there.
In short, tournaments let you plan and improve your game/city, the Spire can help if you are very lucky or it can just ruin you. Personally I don't like games that are based on purely luck. And I always though of this game of a game of planning which it's becoming less and less it seems.
Its not either/or. Do what suits you, nobody makes you do the Spire any more than nobody makes you do all your tournament provinces maxed out to 6 stars.

I never see anyone complaining that they can't do all their provinces in tournament to 6 stars.
 
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