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Small feedback from a new player

Toursy

Alchemist
Evolving buildings can not be teleported because if it was fully evolved all artifacts would be lost when it was teleported back to the inventory meaning that players would only have the base building left.
Oh then that makes sense, well on Forge of Empire you still can teleport them back to inventory and keep their level as it was, maybe that something they should consider here too.


A new feedback about Spire of Eternity : the diplomatic way is totally unbalanced compared to the opposing force...even in step 1 (first spot) it would be crazy to use the diplomatic way since it's so expansive compared to the few soldiers you've to beat.
 

Pauly7

Magus
A new feedback about Spire of Eternity : the diplomatic way is totally unbalanced compared to the opposing force...even in step 1 (first spot) it would be crazy to use the diplomatic way since it's so expansive compared to the few soldiers you've to beat.
It really depends where you are in the game. If you are in about chapter 2 then the negotiating cost in the Spire is eye-watering, to the point that it isn't even an option... then by chapter 4 it's much more manageable and a better alternative (for my money) than fighting through. In the later chapters the goods (non-sentient) required are not even noticeable and it becomes about whether you have enough coins, supplies and Orcs to cover the task.
 

Laurelin

Sorcerer
[...] on Forge of Empire you still can teleport them back to inventory and keep their level as it was, maybe that something they should consider here too.

@Toursy : I have often found that some, even many, players (of any given computer game) seem to consider the underlying programming of the game to be in some way 'set in stone' and unalterable - or, if not impossible, at least difficult and/or expensive to alter. I have also long wondered why such views arise, since most computer games (as shown through the existence of prototype/indev/beta/other early software releases, as well as patches, bug-fixes, updates, new features, sequel games, etc.) can be, and usually are, altered to at least some extent whenever and however their developers see fit, with the only real limitation being the capacity of the game engine itself - for example, a game engine designed solely to run 'Match-3' games cannot be used to create a 'First Person Shooter', and vice versa (although, of course, one could write an engine which can do both).

However, and within the particular limits of any game engine, it is usually possible to make just about any alteration the developers wish to make, whether small or large - even if this involves completely re-writing the entire 'core game'. And in the most extreme of cases (often when game sequels are created which work differently from the originals), it is, of course, possible to rewrite the underlying game engine entirely; the only true limits upon any computer game or other software are (a) the physical ability of the hardware upon which it runs, and (b) the expertise and intentions of its creators. And while re-coding an entire game, or even a game engine, may (although not invariably) be expensive, complicated, and/or time-consuming, none of these actually equates with 'impossible' (we are back to hardware limitations and/or designer ability there).

In the case in point (Inventory storage of Evolving Buildings [EBs] in Elvenar), and as you will find (or already have found?) with many elements of Elvenar which closely resemble comparable elements of Forge of Empires, it is very unlikely to be the case that Elvenar's EBs actually cannot - due to unalterable limitations of the game engine - be stored in Inventory, either with or without their 'Artifacts', when elements of FoE which behave in exactly the same way - i.e. they are base 'buildings' with separate 'Artifacts' used to 'evolve' them - within a virtually identical game engine, but which have cosmetic differences (e.g. changed names and graphical representations) can be stored in Inventory; rather, it is far more likely, given the close similarity between Elvenar's and FoE's game engines and in-game elements, that this apparent difference (or, in fact, almost any other apparent difference) between the two games is solely a matter of design choice, not any kind of code-dependent necessity.

As for whether InnoGames will, in future, allow the storage of EBs in Inventory, which is extremely unlikely to be impossible in terms of the game's underlying programming (even if currently inactive code needs to be activated and/or extra code needs to be written), the storage of any building in Inventory (in Elvenar) has been possible (meaning: 'allowed by its designers') only since the introduction of the Teleport Building Spell - this being a feature which, prior to its being implemented in the game, was (like the Inventory storage of EBs) also said to be 'impossible' whenever it was requested or discussed by players.

Finally, it is worth pointing out that the ability to store buildings in Inventory (i.e. what Elvenar calls 'Teleport') - previously one of the most often-requested in-game features - is, at present, provided solely via The Spire, and was not released until The Spire itself was also introduced.

It is interesting to observe how the description of some of the in-game elements of Elvenar as 'buildings', especially in the case of EBs and their 'Artifacts', seems sometimes to lead to their being understood almost as if they were real, physical buildings; perhaps as if, on occasion, it is near-forgotten that there is nothing physical, or even in any way real, about what Elvenar calls 'buildings', or, indeed, what any game calls any of its component elements. They are all simply rendered computer code with graphical representations and/or various programmed functions attached to them (e.g. 'produce X amount of Y every Z hours'), with (of course!) none of the physical limitations of a real building or other real object.

To add to this unreal yet persuasive impression, an 'Artifact', although almost always a real, physical object in normal parlance, is not actually - in Elvenar terms - an object which has to be physically 'removed' from the base of an EB and/or 'stored separately', as if in a warehouse or similar, but rather it is just a set of instructions, which can (whether this takes time or not) be re-coded to 'remove' and/or 'store' the 'Artifacts' [i.e. their efffect(s)] separately from the (equally unreal) 'base' of the 'building'. Such is the power of language and, of course, human imagination... but this post is already FAR too long and rambling, without further waffling, as I am very prone to do (sorry!)... :D

A new feedback about Spire of Eternity : the diplomatic way is totally unbalanced compared to the opposing force...even in step 1 (first spot) it would be crazy to use the diplomatic way since it's so expansive compared to the few soldiers you've to beat.

This is the usual early impression of The Spire (it was certainly my own first impression), and is certainly true of the first four Encounters within The Spire, which are, indeed, surprisingly easy in terms of combat when compared against the relatively high Resources/Goods cost of Diplomacy in those same early Encounters. It can also (sometimes) be reasonably easy, particularly if fighting manually, to win by combat the next four Encounters, plus some of the later ones, especially when one has not advanced far enough in the game to cause The Spire's inherent difficulty level to increase*.

* Although the formula by which The Spire's difficulty increases has not formally been released by InnoGames, @MinMax Gamer has calculated how it works and what affects it - please go here if you would like to read up on this (and there is much more information about the game on this site, too).

However, even beyond the very first four Encounters (the first 'Blue Barrier'), you will find that the rate at which the Spire Squad Sizes increase, combined with the fact that the Enemy Troops will increase in HP/Damage strength and 'Special Abilities' (i.e. their * rating) and are randomly generated (in terms of Troop types) for each Encounter, will lead to combat becoming first more difficult, and then virtually impossible for anyone who does not (a) well understand the combat system and/or strike lucky with the specific combination of enemy Troop types, and (b) either own one or more Brown Bear(s) (which increase the number of Troops one can create - and therefore can afford to lose - all at once) - and/or have the ability to produce and collect a constant high rate and volume of Troops obtained via non-Brown-Bear 'normal' methods (resetting Troop-producing buildings at specific intervals, operating more/upgraded Armouries, levelling-up relevant Troop-producing/boosting Ancient Wonders, etc.).

Most players without Brown Bear(s) and/or who have not advanced in-game to the point where players have the ability to create the strong and/or specialised 2* and 3* Troops which are realistic opponents to the later Spire Enemy Troops will find that the Diplomacy option is the only way to progress very far or even at all in many Spire Encounters (although, again, this also depends on player ability/time commitment and randomised Enemy Troop combinations, and even player Race choice, since Human Priests [for example] are far superior to the Elven early-available equivalent, i.e. Sorceresses), even if only because lower-levelled players and/or those without Brown Bears often cannot (without becoming what are called 'hardcore' players) create enough Troops even to fill five of the very large later Spire Squad Sizes at all - bearing in mind that even a single defeat in the mid-to-late Spire Encounters - which become two- or three-wave fights in the more advanced stages - can cost a non-end-game/non-Brown Bear-owning player anything up to ALL of their current Troops (to be clear, this relates to the large and progressively larger Spire Squad Sizes).

In short: below mid-late-game, and without sufficient Troops which are powerful enough to cope with specialised/mixed 3* Enemy Troops in huge numbers, Diplomacy in The Spire - after the first four unusually easy combat Encounters - will often be your cheapest (or even only possible) choice.
 

Toursy

Alchemist
Thank you for this very complete answer. I didn't mean they couldn't make it happen in the future, I rather give them the suggestion to do it. They don't need to separate the artifacts to the building once in the inventory (at least I think that would be simpler for them to do so), but directly put in your inventory "X building level 5" for example.

Concerning the Spire's difficulty, I just feel it's really badly balanced, the difficulty rise suddenly (step 8 or 9), because we go from 1 wave to 2 waves which looks to me quite impossible to do by fighting, and negotiating isn't an option either because I got to pay almost 100 steel, 75 crystals and 75 silks per offer... these are of course non boosted resources... I just arrived Chapter 3, are we really supposed to have that much in stock ? There are 3 steps in the negotiation, which may require at least 100 + 75 +75 x 3 (but it may be even more if two people ask for the same resource) : so 300 + 150 +150 for just one step (at least and you have to hope to do it wrong since there are only 3 chances to get it right with 5 fives possibilities)... I do not even produce this amount in 24h... So I feel stuck in a very early stage that's why I think they should try to balance it (which they did for tournaments just recently if I understood well) and this prove it very well :
It really depends where you are in the game. If you are in about chapter 2 then the negotiating cost in the Spire is eye-watering, to the point that it isn't even an option... then by chapter 4 it's much more manageable and a better alternative (for my money) than fighting through. In the later chapters the goods (non-sentient) required are not even noticeable and it becomes about whether you have enough coins, supplies and Orcs to cover the task.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
@Toursy : I have often found that some, even many, players (of any given computer game) seem to consider the underlying programming of the game to be in some way 'set in stone' and unalterable - or, if not impossible, at least difficult and/or expensive to alter. I have also long wondered why such views arise, since most computer games (as shown through the existence of prototype/indev/beta/other early software releases, as well as patches, bug-fixes, updates, new features, sequel games, etc.) can be, and usually are, altered to at least some extent whenever and however their developers see fit, with the only real limitation being the capacity of the game engine itself - for example, a game engine designed solely to run 'Match-3' games cannot be used to create a 'First Person Shooter', and vice versa (although, of course, one could write an engine which can do both).

However, and within the particular limits of any game engine, it is usually possible to make just about any alteration the developers wish to make, whether small or large - even if this involves completely re-writing the entire 'core game'. And in the most extreme of cases (often when game sequels are created which work differently from the originals), it is, of course, possible to rewrite the underlying game engine entirely; the only true limits upon any computer game or other software are (a) the physical ability of the hardware upon which it runs, and (b) the expertise and intentions of its creators. And while re-coding an entire game, or even a game engine, may (although not invariably) be expensive, complicated, and/or time-consuming, none of these actually equates with 'impossible' (we are back to hardware limitations and/or designer ability there).

In the case in point (Inventory storage of Evolving Buildings [EBs] in Elvenar), and as you will find (or already have found?) with many elements of Elvenar which closely resemble comparable elements of Forge of Empires, it is very unlikely to be the case that Elvenar's EBs actually cannot - due to unalterable limitations of the game engine - be stored in Inventory, either with or without their 'Artifacts', when elements of FoE which behave in exactly the same way - i.e. they are base 'buildings' with separate 'Artifacts' used to 'evolve' them - within a virtually identical game engine, but which have cosmetic differences (e.g. changed names and graphical representations) can be stored in Inventory; rather, it is far more likely, given the close similarity between Elvenar's and FoE's game engines and in-game elements, that this apparent difference (or, in fact, almost any other apparent difference) between the two games is solely a matter of design choice, not any kind of code-dependent necessity.

As for whether InnoGames will, in future, allow the storage of EBs in Inventory, which is extremely unlikely to be impossible in terms of the game's underlying programming (even if currently inactive code needs to be activated and/or extra code needs to be written), the storage of any building in Inventory (in Elvenar) has been possible (meaning: 'allowed by its designers') only since the introduction of the Teleport Building Spell - this being a feature which, prior to its being implemented in the game, was (like the Inventory storage of EBs) also said to be 'impossible' whenever it was requested or discussed by players.

Finally, it is worth pointing out that the ability to store buildings in Inventory (i.e. what Elvenar calls 'Teleport') - previously one of the most often-requested in-game features - is, at present, provided solely via The Spire, and was not released until The Spire itself was also introduced.

It is interesting to observe how the description of some of the in-game elements of Elvenar as 'buildings', especially in the case of EBs and their 'Artifacts', seems sometimes to lead to their being understood almost as if they were real, physical buildings; perhaps as if, on occasion, it is near-forgotten that there is nothing physical, or even in any way real, about what Elvenar calls 'buildings', or, indeed, what any game calls any of its component elements. They are all simply rendered computer code with graphical representations and/or various programmed functions attached to them (e.g. 'produce X amount of Y every Z hours'), with (of course!) none of the physical limitations of a real building or other real object.

To add to this unreal yet persuasive impression, an 'Artifact', although almost always a real, physical object in normal parlance, is not actually - in Elvenar terms - an object which has to be physically 'removed' from the base of an EB and/or 'stored separately', as if in a warehouse or similar, but rather it is just a set of instructions, which can (whether this takes time or not) be re-coded to 'remove' and/or 'store' the 'Artifacts' [i.e. their efffect(s)] separately from the (equally unreal) 'base' of the 'building'. Such is the power of language and, of course, human imagination... but this post is already FAR too long and rambling, without further waffling, as I am very prone to do (sorry!)... :D



This is the usual early impression of The Spire (it was certainly my own first impression), and is certainly true of the first four Encounters within The Spire, which are, indeed, surprisingly easy in terms of combat when compared against the relatively high Resources/Goods cost of Diplomacy in those same early Encounters. It can also (sometimes) be reasonably easy, particularly if fighting manually, to win by combat the next four Encounters, plus some of the later ones, especially when one has not advanced far enough in the game to cause The Spire's inherent difficulty level to increase*.

* Although the formula by which The Spire's difficulty increases has not formally been released by InnoGames, @MinMax Gamer has calculated how it works and what affects it - please go here if you would like to read up on this (and there is much more information about the game on this site, too).

However, even beyond the very first four Encounters (the first 'Blue Barrier'), you will find that the rate at which the Spire Squad Sizes increase, combined with the fact that the Enemy Troops will increase in HP/Damage strength and 'Special Abilities' (i.e. their * rating) and are randomly generated (in terms of Troop types) for each Encounter, will lead to combat becoming first more difficult, and then virtually impossible for anyone who does not (a) well understand the combat system and/or strike lucky with the specific combination of enemy Troop types, and (b) either own one or more Brown Bear(s) (which increase the number of Troops one can create - and therefore can afford to lose - all at once) - and/or have the ability to produce and collect a constant high rate and volume of Troops obtained via non-Brown-Bear 'normal' methods (resetting Troop-producing buildings at specific intervals, operating more/upgraded Armouries, levelling-up relevant Troop-producing/boosting Ancient Wonders, etc.).

Most players without Brown Bear(s) and/or who have not advanced in-game to the point where players have the ability to create the strong and/or specialised 2* and 3* Troops which are realistic opponents to the later Spire Enemy Troops will find that the Diplomacy option is the only way to progress very far or even at all in many Spire Encounters (although, again, this also depends on player ability/time commitment and randomised Enemy Troop combinations, and even player Race choice, since Human Priests [for example] are far superior to the Elven early-available equivalent, i.e. Sorceresses), even if only because lower-levelled players and/or those without Brown Bears often cannot (without becoming what are called 'hardcore' players) create enough Troops even to fill five of the very large later Spire Squad Sizes at all - bearing in mind that even a single defeat in the mid-to-late Spire Encounters - which become two- or three-wave fights in the more advanced stages - can cost a non-end-game/non-Brown Bear-owning player anything up to ALL of their current Troops (to be clear, this relates to the large and progressively larger Spire Squad Sizes).

In short: below mid-late-game, and without sufficient Troops which are powerful enough to cope with specialised/mixed 3* Enemy Troops in huge numbers, Diplomacy in The Spire - after the first four unusually easy combat Encounters - will often be your cheapest (or even only possible) choice.

Everything is possible as long as you throw enough recources at it.
The main issue is how much are they willing to spend on a feature.
They once rebuild the combat engine to make flying units possible. But somewhere down the line it was deemed to complicated (read as too expensive) and it never materialised. That's why for example drone riders and blossom mages are still affected by terrain.
 

Pauly7

Magus
I didn't mean they couldn't make it happen in the future, I rather give them the suggestion to do it. They don't need to separate the artifacts to the building once in the inventory (at least I think that would be simpler for them to do so), but directly put in your inventory "X building level 5" for example.
I think that they are saying that they just can't right now, under their current programming. Teleporting an evolving building or an AW would make all the resources disappear whether they want it to or not... Of course there's nothing to stop it being possible, as @CrazyWizard says, if they want to go through the process. It is something that has been raised with them before.
 

Julian

Sorcerer
Concerning the Spire's difficulty, I just feel it's really badly balanced, the difficulty rise suddenly (step 8 or 9), because we go from 1 wave to 2 waves which looks to me quite impossible to do by fighting, and negotiating isn't an option either because I got to pay almost 100 steel, 75 crystals and 75 silks per offer... these are of course non boosted resources... I just arrived Chapter 3, are we really supposed to have that much in stock ?
Don't expect to be able to go all the way up the tower all at once. It is hard going and is supposed to be. Do what you can. Sometimes it is easier to fight, sometimes negotiate.
 

Toursy

Alchemist
Don't expect to be able to go all the way up the tower all at once. It is hard going and is supposed to be. Do what you can. Sometimes it is easier to fight, sometimes negotiate.
I was not expecting it no worries :p

Just I had the feeling that from step 1 it was not possible to negotiate with resources (too expensive) and suddenly, step 8-9 there are two waves which raise the difficulty quite a lot. I was just wondering if the difficulty could be more balanced, just make something more difficult in a gradual way (still not letting people to get easily to final step :p).

I think that they are saying that they just can't right now, under their current programming. Teleporting an evolving building or an AW would make all the resources disappear whether they want it to or not... Of course there's nothing to stop it being possible, as @CrazyWizard says, if they want to go through the process. It is something that has been raised with them before.

Oh ok thank you :)
 

DeletedUser7526

Guest
The idea is to get those rewards / instants and go up 1 or 2 more gates at a time.
eventually (if your FS makes 11-12 chests), you will have enough instants to do the spire as much as you want
 
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