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Runeshard Changes

Paladestar

Enchanter
The downsides are -
...

3) Whether you like it or don't like it, KP hunters cause conflicts. This will now increase more and more as they start to go after the bonus rune shards too.

KP hunting kinda puts you in an either or choice now. I can make so much KP from hunting that I'm essentially blocked from being able to trade with my fellows now. Frankly, KP hunting takes time, effort and coordination with fellows, it's not 'free KP.' It's extra KP earned through playing the game, but now Inno are treating KP rewards from chests from hunting as being the same as KP people donate to you - it's not the same thing at all.

Inno are going to force me to go nuts and overbid with runes to stop myself from being donation blocked. I have nearly 4000 runes for Golden Abyss, 3000 for Mountain Halls etc., should I start adding dozens of runes to AWs to offset the punishment I get for making a profit from the chests? Block the other chests on AWs so nobody else can have them and make lots of other players get KP donation blocked for getting so many donations?

The system needs tweaking. Expecting 1:1 KP 'trades' all of the time is nuts and it stops altruistic people from making donations as it now interferes with the people they donate to! It needs to be more like for every KP you donate you can get two back (or even three or four).
 

Aisling1

Conjurer
Dear Humans and Elves,

Please use this thread to discuss the new changes to the Runeshards

We're looking forward to hearing your feedback!

Kind regards,
Your Elvenar Team
You've more or less made Rune shards useless... and worthless.. we now upgrade AW's so fast that shards to create a rune are worthless... but you keep offering them as even prizes.. not a good idea.
Fairy v Human.. I have runes for AW's I cannot build, never mind never intended to build.. it puts me at an advantage.. but I agree with fellow player on this.. and we deal.
Scavenagers.. we've seen this.. I have for e.g a Maze of the Dark Matter and I have it built, and I am trying to upgrade it... but I am in an FS where most of the players are 3 to 4 chapters behind.. they can contribute and do.. but get little from gaining chests.. meanwhile, players who are not visiting and not trading and not on my map, contribute a little.. like 5 kp and gain chests.. that give them two to three runes for that AW....
It seems to me unfair.
I would like it if they could only contribute if they are on my map for visiting and trading.
How hard would this be.. ?
 

Aisling1

Conjurer
I now see references to KP hunters.. surely if you're targeting particular Wonders, you should have to be in reach for trades and visiting.. only fair..
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
KP hunting kinda puts you in an either or choice now. I can make so much KP from hunting that I'm essentially blocked from being able to trade with my fellows now. Frankly, KP hunting takes time, effort and coordination with fellows, it's not 'free KP.' It's extra KP earned through playing the game, but now Inno are treating KP rewards from chests from hunting as being the same as KP people donate to you - it's not the same thing at all.

Inno are going to force me to go nuts and overbid with runes to stop myself from being donation blocked. I have nearly 4000 runes for Golden Abyss, 3000 for Mountain Halls etc., should I start adding dozens of runes to AWs to offset the punishment I get for making a profit from the chests? Block the other chests on AWs so nobody else can have them and make lots of other players get KP donation blocked for getting so many donations?

The system needs tweaking. Expecting 1:1 KP 'trades' all of the time is nuts and it stops altruistic people from making donations as it now interferes with the people they donate to! It needs to be more like for every KP you donate you can get two back (or even three or four).

It takes time, time for players to build up the recieving allowance, and for players like you to get rid of there KP.

A player who played for 6 months under the new structure has according to beta information build op an allowance of 15.000 points
The main issue right now is that players havent build up an allowance yet. but once we are a few months ahead. it will be nearly impossible to get a player locked by dumping runes on them.

Just help a new players with a lever or 2 here and there and everyone will be fine.
Only notorious pushers will be locked out.
 

Killiak

Artisan
It takes time, time for players to build up the recieving allowance, and for players like you to get rid of there KP.

A player who played for 6 months under the new structure has according to beta information build op an allowance of 15.000 points
The main issue right now is that players havent build up an allowance yet. but once we are a few months ahead. it will be nearly impossible to get a player locked by dumping runes on them.

Just help a new players with a lever or 2 here and there and everyone will be fine.
Only notorious pushers will be locked out.

I have been keeping track of my KP 'allowance'. My regular playstyle, without hunting, sees me slowly going down on said allowance.
Guess Inno doesn't like me.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
I have been keeping track of my KP 'allowance'. My regular playstyle, without hunting, sees me slowly going down on said allowance.
Guess Inno doesn't like me.
Sure... guess your regular playstyle is pushing with 4 or more accounts.
Karvest once posted the numbers on beta, if you are going down then you are pushing

The allowance in a yearly bases is like 30k kp, you are telling me you are doing nothing "special" but you are at a rate where you gain "unfairly" more than 30K KP per year? with just "regular play".

Lets be real you are either trying to fuel the flame for your entertainment or pushing because it makes no sense that a 30k allowance (a little lower) per year is not enough to stay out of trouble.

Nobody is going to "annoy" any single player with 2000 runes per year.
 

Far Reach

Conjurer
Sure... guess your regular playstyle is pushing with 4 or more accounts.
Karvest once posted the numbers on beta, if you are going down then you are pushing

I'm not sure that this is fair. Some entirely reasonable kp swaps schemes will consistently result in negative balances for either recipient or donor. If a player is doing more of one than the other (e.g. due to to being the largest/smallest player in their FW) then they could finish up with a small negative trend to their kp balance. It won't be huge however, and could easily be addressed with occasional small gifts.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
I'm not sure that this is fair. Some entirely reasonable kp swaps schemes will consistently result in negative balances for either recipient or donor. If a player is doing more of one than the other (e.g. due to to being the largest/smallest player in their FW) then they could finish up with a small negative trend to their kp balance. It won't be huge however, and could easily be addressed with occasional small gifts.
we are talking about 30.000 points per year.
You know how many wonders that are.

I dont know what scheme that is, because in most scheme's you gain some and you give some. everytime you give your allowance goes up.
So it should be a scheme where you gain more than you give.

Lets assume you "unfairly gain" 80KP in some scheme, then you need to do that scheme 365 times per year
Lets be real.

We also know that it's not good to gain more then you give so why use the scheme?
 
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Far Reach

Conjurer
I dont know what scheme that is, because in most scheme's you gain some and you give some. everytime you give your allowance goes up.
So it should be a scheme where you gain more than you give.

Lets assume you "unfairly gain" 80KP in some scheme, then you need to do that scheme 365 times per year
Lets be real.

We also know that it's not good to gain more then you give so why use the scheme?

I know you to be an advanced and analytical player, and so your comments suggest to me that you haven't fully examined how Inno's KP balancing works. Instants (but not runes) from reward chests count as donations to the recipent from the owner of the completed AW. This means that chest matching KP sharing schemes which take account of the runes give AW recipients a small (and in my view unfair) negative balance. Some types of KP hunting (using that term in the broadest sense) can also have counter-intuitive effects.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
I know you to be an advanced and analytical player, and so your comments suggest to me that you haven't fully examined how Inno's KP balancing works. Instants (but not runes) from reward chests count as donations to the recipent from the owner of the completed AW. This means that chest matching KP sharing schemes which take account of the runes give AW recipients a small (and in my view unfair) negative balance. Some types of KP hunting (using that term in the broadest sense) can also have counter-intuitive effects.
I am aware of that, my point is that
  • the leeway they give you is so much you will never encounter it once this is in effect for a while for "normal" play and the effect of getting runebombed will be nonexistend in the futurer also. currently there are too many runes in existence and people havent build up room for it yet. so thats why we encounter these things.
  • Yes with searching you might get into trouble, but hey we know that. this means you can take that into account. I still search for wonders but I know the limitations. work around it. don't just search for 45 KP for 1 point, but grab that 45 chest and 3 runes for 3 runes. that way you still earn 45 KP.
This is a feature that was asked for my many for years and years and years and years.
Now we have it it seems that some advocate to abolish it.

If we know that you need to keep trades fair in KP, then lets do it.
It's ok if you get some KP the room is there, you help someone fine.

Some of those KP count? also fine, but to get to an 30K positive average you need to to go very extreme.
lets say the average return in a wonder is 30kp. this means you need to get a return in ~1000 wonder upgrades per year in your fellowship

That is the unreal part. yes there are some early introduction teething problems. but in time all of them will disappear unless you play in a way to make them appear. With just "normal" play not a single player will ever hit those barriers once it's established
 

Killiak

Artisan
Sure... guess your regular playstyle is pushing with 4 or more accounts.

I am, in fact, not. I would also appreciate it if you didn't throw such accusations around willy nilly.

Karvest once posted the numbers on beta, if you are going down then you are pushing

Good for him, but he's wrong in my case.

The allowance in a yearly bases is like 30k kp, you are telling me you are doing nothing "special" but you are at a rate where you gain "unfairly" more than 30K KP per year? with just "regular play".

Lets be real you are either trying to fuel the flame for your entertainment or pushing because it makes no sense that a 30k allowance (a little lower) per year is not enough to stay out of trouble.

Nobody is going to "annoy" any single player with 2000 runes per year.

Let's be real, your assumptions are nothing more than that; assumptions.

I am just telling you that my allowance is currently going down with my very own regular playstyle, nothing more and nothing less. There is zero reason for you to then go off on me like that.


we are talking about 30.000 points per year.
You know how many wonders that are.

Less than two.
 
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Herodite

Forum mod extraordinaire
Elvenar Team
Hi Guys! Remember many Players have different styles of donation systems! Lets not assume or accuse. Keep it polite! :)

Kind Regards

Herodite.
 

Aisling1

Conjurer
Again, my point is missed. It's not about the KP's, it's not about the donations or how they are done.. it's about gaining runes, having runes and using runes.. including shards.
It's about two players in an FS deciding they would really like a Victory Springs, for e.g... and going around, gathering shards to make runes and then shards.. and calculating over months.. to end up in a world where when we finally get enough and build that AW, a total stranger.. non trading partner, not visiting, can donate 5 or 15kps and win a chest - when both of us have contributed over 500kps to each over 12 months or more.. and over night, that can go from 1 to 3 for a gold chest.. to making 15 to 60 or more an easy "donation"... yes, they do help build our AW;s.. but they get a lot more out than they put in, and they squeeze out our FS members.. and it's targeted and deliberate.. and once they've donated, there's nothing we can do.. they don't deserve the chest. Research or not, they are "stealing" it..

At least I can refuse a 0 star trade, ignore a neighbour, - but if someone donates to my AW.. there's nothing I can do..
It puts some of us at a disadvantage..mostly those of us who have been playing for a long time.

All I ask, is that you - Inno - limit the ability to donate to AW's to FS, or neighbours or those who trade with you. That's it. That would solve it.

Again, I appreciate the ingenuity of those who go out and target FS, where the kp swap is poor or non existent.. but it's like they did one round in our tournament and got 10 chests.. if we put it in those terms, they'd be banned..

Meanwhile.. I'm hitting back, trying to do the same.. but it's aggressive and takes time.. and I, day one, wanted to be a trader and a trader only.. we were promised that.. but armouries and fighters have to keep upgrading while trading is left to sink or swim..
I don't think I like the way this game is going..
 

Jackluyt

Shaman
Again, my point is missed. It's not about the KP's, it's not about the donations or how they are done.. it's about gaining runes, having runes and using runes.. including shards.
It's about two players in an FS deciding they would really like a Victory Springs, for e.g... and going around, gathering shards to make runes and then shards.. and calculating over months.. to end up in a world where when we finally get enough and build that AW, a total stranger.. non trading partner, not visiting, can donate 5 or 15kps and win a chest - when both of us have contributed over 500kps to each over 12 months or more.. and over night, that can go from 1 to 3 for a gold chest.. to making 15 to 60 or more an easy "donation"... yes, they do help build our AW;s.. but they get a lot more out than they put in, and they squeeze out our FS members.. and it's targeted and deliberate.. and once they've donated, there's nothing we can do.. they don't deserve the chest. Research or not, they are "stealing" it..

At least I can refuse a 0 star trade, ignore a neighbour, - but if someone donates to my AW.. there's nothing I can do..
It puts some of us at a disadvantage..mostly those of us who have been playing for a long time.

All I ask, is that you - Inno - limit the ability to donate to AW's to FS, or neighbours or those who trade with you. That's it. That would solve it.

Again, I appreciate the ingenuity of those who go out and target FS, where the kp swap is poor or non existent.. but it's like they did one round in our tournament and got 10 chests.. if we put it in those terms, they'd be banned..

Meanwhile.. I'm hitting back, trying to do the same.. but it's aggressive and takes time.. and I, day one, wanted to be a trader and a trader only.. we were promised that.. but armouries and fighters have to keep upgrading while trading is left to sink or swim..
I don't think I like the way this game is going..

It is impossible for an outsider to 'steal' rewards if you don't leave them lying around where people can steal them! In other words, if your fellowship has one or other decent swap system, this can never happen - on ours, for example, the top contributors to the swap thread have made contributions like this example:

JackLuyt.png


So it is impossible for an outsider to sneak in and steal a 'cheap reward' if you have a good swap system.

One should NEVER donate points to your own Ancient Wonder - for two simple reasons:

1. Taking a wonder to within 100 points of completion before offering it to your friends, opens the door for so-called 'KP pirates'.

2. More importantly, a knowledge point you swap with a friend has a chance of helping you to get bonus KP and rune shards. If you drop it in your own wonder, it has zero chance of gaining you anything. That is why I drop every single KP I have into swaps of various sorts, on a daily basis - and average between 10 and 15% extra bonus KP as a result.
:)
 
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Alcaro

Necromancer
Meanwhile.. I'm hitting back, trying to do the same.. but it's aggressive and takes time.. and I, day one, wanted to be a trader and a trader only.. we were promised that.. but armouries and fighters have to keep upgrading while trading is left to sink or swim..
I don't think I like the way this game is going..
I had a second city in Arendyll where my intention was to be a trader only and the main city from Winyandor to be the fighter. Eventually I couldn't make it just negotiating everywhere and had to build military wonders and switch from 100% trader, to half-half. Also The fighter, slowly slowly started to negotiate here and there .. long story short - since is not possible to have a pure trader city I simply abandoned that one from En1. Makes no sense to have 2 cities (actually were 3) who have to walk the same path without having the possibility to choose if is what we want or not.
 

Silly Bubbles

Necromancer
a total stranger.. non trading partner, not visiting, can donate 5 or 15kps and win a chest - when both of us have contributed over 500kps to each over 12 months or more.. and over night, that can go from 1 to 3 for a gold chest.. to making 15 to 60 or more an easy "donation"... yes, they do help build our AW;s.. but they get a lot more out than they put in, and they squeeze out our FS members.. and it's targeted and deliberate.. and once they've donated, there's nothing we can do.. they don't deserve the chest. Research or not, they are "stealing" it..

Sorry but I don’t understand why do you get upset when you throw something into a bin and then someone’s digs it out and even leaves a little present for you. If you don’t want that to happen, offer your chests to your fellows, don’t throw them away. Of course, it does happen that sometimes someone gives you more than the value of the chest, in that case they deserve it as they paid for it more than anyone else and earned it honestly.

One should NEVER donate points to your own Ancient Wonder - for two simple reasons:

1. Taking a wonder to within 100 points of completion before offering it to your friends, opens the door for so-called 'KP pirates'.

2. More importantly, a knowledge point you swap with a friend has a chance of helping you to get bonus KP and rune shards. If you drop it in your own wonder, it has zero chance of gaining you anything. That is why I drop every single KP I have into swaps of various sorts, on a daily basis - and average between 10 and 15% extra bonus KP as a result.

There’s a thread that discusses different KP sharing systems. I think that various player's points of view are worth a read.
 

Pauly7

Magus
One should NEVER donate points to your own Ancient Wonder - for two simple reasons
Not always true. It depends on the swapping system. With NetZero one donates to one's own Wonders, but the key is still to have the chests fully spoken for before hunting becomes an issue.

Anyway, if A swap system is in place then hunters will have to pay at least market value for a chest. In which case I say thank you for the donation.

I'm never sure why it would take months to build a Victory Springs. Even if you don't have those right rune shards, do you not have a ToS or something to break down into more shards and fill the desired rune wheel?
 

Stucon

Illusionist
Taking a wonder to within 100 points of completion before offering it to your friends, opens the door for so-called 'KP pirates'
2 people from the same FS recently donated 150KP into an AW that I was upgrading. They got the rune shards but fewer KP than they donated. Apparently they are dumping Rune shards to unblock themselves (I contacted them) but seem incapable of seeing they could swap the damn things between themselves.

You'll have to raise the 100 points @Jackluyt.
 

rock stream

Scholar
All I ask, is that you - Inno - limit the ability to donate to AW's to FS, or neighbours or those who trade with you. That's it. That would solve it.
The shard to kp exchange AND the easier "Neighbourly Help" (see news from Beta) changes that are coming indicates that INNO is making the KP hunt a part of the game. As Killiak indicates the only governor is the "anti-pushing system". Once you fully understand the system and how easy it is to work around within a fellowship. It will take a bit of time to set up but with INNO's assistance it will be really easy to reap huge benefits for yourself and for your fellowship.
Happy hunting:)
 
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