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Remove premium expansion facility

KermitsDad

Alchemist
Please can we have the ability to remove premium expansions from our cities.
Rather like with a teleport spell - the premium expansion gets removed and goes into inventory as a blueprint.

It would also be good if a refund system could be setup for these unwanted premium expansions...
Perhaps not a diamond refund though as they seem rather worthless now.
Maybe something useful instead of diamonds, suggestions anyone?
 

KermitsDad

Alchemist
@ Silmaril, OK I get that, once you've made a purchase the cash cannot be refunded. Standard in most game T&C's.

However, what about my main point here:
i.e. Providing the ability to "un-place" a premium expansion and return it as a blueprint to your inventory?
 

Silmaril

Community Manager
Elvenar Team
It could never change in essence as teleporting an item would still be that item. As you know currently once any expansion is placed it cannot even be moved either as the game is always so space lacking as part of the strategy.
What are your thoughts behind the need to teleport space?
 

Sir Derf

Artisan
1) I will guess this is motivated by the newly introduced factoring of # of expansions in the Tourney difficulty. Being able to place an empty premium expansion into inventory would, presumably remove that from the count of placed expansions and thus lower the Tourney difficulty.


2) Are blueprints expansions? I thought blueprints were involved in building upgrades? Are you telling me that I could have been pushing my Fellowship to do more in the Tournaments so I could get the 10th chest, get a blueprint and get more expansions?

3) If this concept were to be actually implemented, I would think that the more natural implementation would be to simply de-place the expansion and increase the count of available expansions in the Builder's dialog Expansions tab.

4) I'm not sure if this can be strictly/easily implemented, as I don't know if the data that describes your map maintains the origins of each placed expansion. I would guess the game keeps track that you've placed x Province, y Research and z Premium, but not which one was which. It might be that it can be pulled out of a complete transaction log, but that is very inelegant.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
It could never change in essence as teleporting an item would still be that item. As you know currently once any expansion is placed it cannot even be moved either as the game is always so space lacking as part of the strategy.
What are your thoughts behind the need to teleport space?
Hmm.... someone missed the entire raving of of players in the new tournament change part of the forum :(
A bit shocking :rolleyes:

People want the ability to remove expansions (and teleport wonders) so they can "fix" there town so it's better at the tournaments off course (and spire so like half the game), there is no other reason to ask for something this stupid.

The fact that people even ask for it (even after they "reduced" the influence of expansions), should ring a warning bell doesn't it?
That change (and the spire formula to start with) is just plain stupid.
I remember that ranting internal boeing e-mail about the 737 max, I shall not repeat it here what was said, you can google it but it's something many of us wonder about in this case as well.
 

Silmaril

Community Manager
Elvenar Team
@Sir Derf Blueprints are nothing whatsoever to do with expansions, just what the player would like to exchange them for.
@CrazyWizard Not at all, please rememer we are testing the Tournament changes, so nothing is yet set in stone and as this post has not been put anywhere near the Tournament thread, it does not follow that @KermitsDad is thinking this way as if they had been this would surely have mentioned the Tournament.
 

Timneh

Artisan
please rememer we are testing the Tournament changes, so nothing is yet set in stone and as this post has not been put anywhere near the Tournament thread, it does not follow that @KermitsDad is thinking this way as if they had been this would surely have mentioned the Tournament.
I think it is safe to assume that @KermitsDad idea is linked to trying to reduce the impact on spire and new tournaments that expansions make and as this is an idea/suggestion it belongs in the ideas/suggestions section and not in the changes to tournaments thread. Not sure but i think one of the rules is to make sure posts are in the correct section of the forum.
With reference to the first part of your post those of us who have been playing the game long enough know that IF there are any changes made(which is doubtful) they will be so small they will not make any real difference and will just be the devs trying to make it look like they listen to feedback.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
it does not follow that @KermitsDad is thinking this way as if they had been this would surely have mentioned the Tournament.
there is absolutely no other reason to teleport expansions than because of the tourney. I have tried to come up with any other explanation and simply cannot see what other reason there could possibly be.
He posted a suggestion and he posted it in the correct part of the forum. I agree he could have mentioned it was tourney related, but I suppose that is too obvious.

And I do agree it would be nice to have that option: It could actually be an upgrade for Premium expansions to make them more valuable. They could be placed in the city and back into the inventory at will. That way they would minimize impact on tourney performance, while being available when needed to play FAs and/or guest races.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
@Sir Derf Blueprints are nothing whatsoever to do with expansions, just what the player would like to exchange them for.
@CrazyWizard Not at all, please rememer we are testing the Tournament changes, so nothing is yet set in stone and as this post has not been put anywhere near the Tournament thread, it does not follow that @KermitsDad is thinking this way as if they had been this would surely have mentioned the Tournament.
That test was already done on beta it was technically correct,
If this was a test to see how it was recieved by the playerbase, that was futile as well.
If it was a test to see the consequences on live it should have been at least 3 months not 3 weeks, because in 3 weeks you are not seeing a long term result, only a short term drain of recources, and because many recources can be used in multiple ways you cannot say drain x is because of tournaments. those reserves first needs to completely drain to see where a change lands and that doesnt happen in a week or 2, so the 3rd week is still not representative.
By the time you might see results the test fase is already over.
Every feedback related to units on the introduction of spire was ignored, there they got there first feedback they should have heeded.
there they already got the feedback because people expected to be this also the new tourney format soon and where afraid by it. that was countered by the announcement that they had no such ideas to change the tournaments. thats how that riot died down.
And guess what we have here?, a spire like tournament!!!

So to me this ain't a test at all, but just a introduction onto live worlds, another try to push for it and have people get to a point they give up the resistance.

That said, the feedback threads are riddles with complaints about expansions being part of the formula both on beta and here is one expample but you can find dozens
https://en.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/upcoming-tournament-changes.12925/post-78488

It's not that hard to connect the dots.

A crude way to describe the spire / tournament formula that defines the difficulty =(A * relic bonus) * (B*mandatory research) * (C*expansion + D*premium expansion) * (E*wonderlevels).

So it ain't that hard to connect the dots why this idea / suggestion was posted.
On beta it was announced that (premium) epxansions got a "huge" reduction especially premium ones, but preliminary test turned out that this reduction is "limited"
And since they keep messing with added and removed reseaches it's hard for minmax gamer to reduce it quickly into an 100% accurate formula for A, B, C D and E.
So it's hard to proof that something is or ain't the truth.

Expansions are required to have room to place wonders, but since wonders have a huge impact (due to the law of large number of wonderlevels make small numbers big, and a small impact huge up to 400%!!!!!) people are contemplating to either quit the game or to destroy them to make both spire and tournament easier. to stay competitive.
When you destroy (or teleport if thats made possible) your wonders you also need less room for all those buildings so now you can also reduce those expansions.

In short to get to a point where all those number above give the optimal result, which we know is NOT and a progression to the end, but more somewhere in the middle of the game.

I hope you see a pattern of regression here.
To keep that wat the most active playerbase seems to enjoy they need to kill there city, less research if possible, less wonders less space.

This is the complete opposith of that you expect in any game where the drive is always bigger, stronger, better, to keep people playing and spending.
Here it's stay small, dont change and regress.

And where to go with those knowledge points if you cannot spend it anywhere?

So I would say both premium and regular should be able to return to your inventory,
Wonders should be teleportable,
Research should be unlearned.

I agree with this idea and support it under the current circumstances wholehartly.
 

DeletedUser3571

Guest
One other reason to teleport expansions is if you placed them in the wrong location. But i don't think this fit with original post.
 

RainbowElvira

Sorcerer
I'm not in favor of this idea. Granted, it would help with the tournament system as it is now. However, since we're always low on space, un-placing expansions would be very counter-productive for our cities. The new tournament system is utterly wrong. Crippling our cities in an attempt to adapt to this terrible system won't make Elvenar more fun.
 

Timneh

Artisan
I'm not in favor of this idea. Granted, it would help with the tournament system as it is now. However, since we're always low on space, un-placing expansions would be very counter-productive for our cities. The new tournament system is utterly wrong. Crippling our cities in an attempt to adapt to this terrible system won't make Elvenar more fun.
I agree with what you say but i would like to point out that even if this feature was introduced (i very much doubt it will be) players would not have to use it. If they wanted to remove expansions they could but if they didn't want to they could ust leave them.
 

Sir Derf

Artisan
Just to point out to @RainbowElvira, if this were implemented, there would be no impact to you; you wouldn't be forced to un-place expansions.

(Felt so moved to say this, it overrode the thought to read the very next post.)
 

RainbowElvira

Sorcerer
The original idea was to delete an expansion in exchange for a blueprint. At least that was my understanding and I admit that I may have misinterpreted this. I am against the possibility of non reversible deletion of expansions. That was what I was referring to.

If the idea is about moving expansions at will to and from inventory or build menu, that is a whole different story. It won't help with tournaments since it's almost guaranteed that the devs will counter that. Who said that expansions in inventory would count differently from the ones placed?

I could support the idea of teleporting expansions into inventory with a teleport spell and place them back when and where needed. This would allow for changing the shape of the city every now and then and improve the city building aspect.
 

Timneh

Artisan
To be honest i think it is a moot point because i can not see the devs ever letting players remove expansions from their cities in any way and even if they did i would think that you would have to put them back in the same position to counter the point you made about changing the shape of cities but like i said i think it is a moot point because i don't ever see it happening.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
If the idea is about moving expansions at will to and from inventory or build menu, that is a whole different story. It won't help with tournaments since it's almost guaranteed that the devs will counter that. Who said that expansions in inventory would count differently from the ones placed?
That is exactly the point, the expansions you have in your inventory do not count to the tourneys, only the ones placed in your cities do.

As to why devs would make it possible? because it would alleviate a lot of the concerns with the new tourney format, without them having to change the tourneys. It would give players a choice, which I think is a good idea, but of course devs may see choice for players as a bad thing. It will of course lead to tournament focused players (those that would remove their expansions from the city and place them in the inventory) performing better than others.
 

Verde

Bard
Yes, please provide a facility to return expansions, INCLUDING/ESPECIALLY Premium Expansions, back into inventory.