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Please Nerf multi-Bears/Phoenix stackability, not fair for the game.

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DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
1 Typing in upper case is considered shouting
3 Give it up. You are not winning people over with your arguments.
These are so irrelevant for the argument that the only thing I could do is laugh about it LOL.

2 18% is a HUGE (shouty) increase
Only for a player that does not posses 3 Brown Bears and is at that chapter. Someone with 3 bears as I demonstrated is not affected by that.
 

DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
See you are just not reading what I wrote, you blind obsession blinds you.
@FieryArien arian is 100% correct

Any town who did not reach those stages CAN adjust to the new rules. as you yourself did.
This gives an advantage that no amount of brow bears can fix. NO AMOUNT OF BEARS CAN FIX!!!!!!!!

if you build a chapter 16 account on a dime, you will be the unbeatable tournament champion even with 0 bears
Can´t believe it, you got the proofs and refutal of your whole claims (even a I gave you a hand making you notice that your AWs levels could be the problem of your so penalized tournament), and you still defending the indefensible.

- Yes, I just demonstrated to you the pure impact of your whole claim, which is falsed. Read it back yourself instead reading what others says about it, and refute it yourself.
-Yes I just demonstrated that the so "big" advantage" a player like me have over you at respect of chapter research and expansions placed, is just some 5 hr timeboosters of distance (depending how much provinces in tournament you do and how you well play it).

- "if you build a chapter 16 account on a dime, you will be the unbeatable tournament champion even with 0 bears"
Yes, like many of my neighbors and fellows that are in that chapter and are always winning first place in server.
Falacy of faulty generalization. (you have made them all the time this conversation has been here going)
 

DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
Nice calculation, but you deliberatly leave out AW and expansions? The multiplicative factor is huge you cant do that. Thats the same reasoning inno uses when they say AW doenst affect the cost much at all...
I intentionally made this to proof that specific fact. In another analysis I put (elucubrated) around 1000 AWs levels to C.Wizard and the double of mine premium expansions and his CAL was about the double of mine.
It concludes that AWs affects him the most, and with his own words are the only part in this game that he can fix, but he just does not want to, blaming research and expansions penalty a big advantage players like me has over him and that any multiple imba bear can fix.

but last but not least is the tourment formula research*expansions*wonderlevels.
Optimal reseach we already determined halfway the elvenar chapter. but those other values are key.
Wonderlevels we can control, we can remove and destroy wonders, but we cannot undo expansions and this is where the reason my bears cannot compete agains expansions.
 

DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
That’s like Inno’s ceo commenting that tourney formula doesn’t affect results ;p
that’s because they are not so obsessed with the game. They are not the 0.08% ;p
But eventually cities can - as craze wiz himself is building one such city
Nah... Your whole defending argument to Wizard claims is showed in the next pic below:
4 imba bears .jpeg


What this means?
-It means you´ve got a surplus of 246% of your normal training squad size every time you feed them.
-It means that with the stackability of your polar bears, you also don´t need to upgrade as high as the TimeWarp must be upgraded to have the same time reducction as it would at level 30th, it saves you a small (but important) penalty for some levels of your TimeWarp, something that almost the 95% of elvenar population do not have.
- I see you´re advancing through Embassies, you´ll probably would reach the traders of unur, with only this you prove my whole claim, where I was explaining that with multiple brown bears I could very easily advance to another chapter without perceiving the penalty from research.
- Those brown bears allow you to advance another chapter with ease.

You´ll lose obviously that benefit and advantage if they are nerfed, obviously, like CrazyWizard himself, you would defend this until the end, I would love you all could put in our shoes one time, yes in the shoes of players that don´t posses all the bears you´ve got. If you do, we would be searching a manner to solve this, and one could be a proposal that I have presented to Crazy Wizard like 6/7 times and he just has ignored it like he ignored my refutal of all his claims, and this proposal wouldn´t hurt your multiple bear stackability.

You always consider players that don´t posses Brown Bears and are in lower chapters like me (begining of the 16th chapter is low for you) to generate your excuses to defend these IMBA AND OP brown bears but you never look to players in your OWN chapter with the same amount of AWs than you that ergo will have the same penalty as you have but WITHOUT BROWN BEARS. (so convenient).
 

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JollyElf

Spellcaster
Nah... Your whole defending argument to Wizard claims is showed in the next pic below:
View attachment 5834

What this means?
-It means you´ve got a surplus of 246% of your normal training squad size every time you feed them.
-It means that with the stackability of your polar bears, you also don´t need to upgrade as high as the TimeWarp must be upgraded to have the same time reducction as it would at level 30th, it saves you a small (but important) penalty for some levels of your TimeWarp, something that almost the 95% of elvenar population do not have.
- I see you´re advancing through Embassies, you´ll probably would reach the traders of unur, with only this you prove my whole claim, where I was explaining that with multiple brown bears I could very easily advance to another chapter without perceiving the penalty from research.
- Those brown bears allow you to advance another chapter with ease.

You´ll lose obviously that benefit and advantage if they are nerfed, obviously, like CrazyWizard himself, you would defend this until the end, I would love you all could put in our shoes one time, yes in the shoes of players that don´t posses all the bears you´ve got. If you do, we would be searching a manner to solve this, and one could be a proposal that I have presented to Crazy Wizard like 6/7 times and he just has ignored it like he ignored my refutal of all his claims, and this proposal wouldn´t hurt your multiple bear stackability.

You always consider players that don´t posses Brown Bears and are in lower chapters like me (begining of the 16th chapter is low for you) to generate your excuses to defend these IMBA AND OP brown bears but you never look to players in your OWN chapter with the same amount of AWs than you that ergo will have the same penalty as you have but WITHOUT BROWN BEARS. (so convenient).
Wow and lol.

Let me state myself and crazy wiz again (and again and again )

we want balance to the game. Bigger balance. Not narrow vision.

you yourself pointed out in your message. That reaching traders of unur, i lose out the benefit. That’s the imbalance we are talking about. But you will have have the imbalance in your favour camping in chapter whatever. So the bears is a solution for me to break even with your performance ( honestly, I don’t even care about ranking. I play when time permits, slow down on a busy week)

by the way, I remember you. Were you the guy who asked for my bear city and play my city when I took a long break from the game.

(trust me : I’m not as obsessed about the game / imbalance I suffer as you are - I can take a break when life gets demanding. And I’m not defending vehemently. We all are desperately :D trying to show multiple larger imbalances which you vehemently refuse to see )
 
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JollyElf

Spellcaster
stackability of your polar bears, you also don´t need to upgrade as high
Wow. You are bitter about that too.
I’m planning to raise time warp and delete those polar bears for saving pet food. Would that make you happy ?

PS : messages are no longer discussion of opinions but getting personal and pointing fingers. Requesting moderation.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
I intentionally made this to proof that specific fact. In another analysis I put (elucubrated) around 1000 AWs levels to C.Wizard and the double of mine premium expansions and his CAL was about the double of mine.
It concludes that AWs affects him the most, and with his own words are the only part in this game that he can fix, but he just does not want to, blaming research and expansions penalty a big advantage players like me has over him and that any multiple imba bear can fix.
Dude your drunk, I do not even have a 1000 wonderlevels in my city as I removed quite a lot.
And no its a combination of numbers, but you keep pushing numbers in there in your favour.

btw FYI 2x the difficulty lets make a childrens calculation so you can get:(base 100% + sapiens + 1 bear = 200%)
so to get double that 400% the opponent needs 400-100 base 50 sapiens is 250% which is 5 bears.

so double the difficulty requires 5 bears to compete at your level, but hey my bears are unfair lol and should be banned

thats your own example.

If you put in the numbers I told you about many times (small city) we get into the god knows what a ridicule amount of bears, 50 or so?
 

Stucon

Enchanter
@DunkelSaturn
You would do well to re-read the last two or three pages.
More and more people are becoming irritated by your behaviour on this thread.
You ignore factors that repute your argument, you have people asking for moderation, you have effectively said it is OK to shout to get your point over.

A question for you. How is saying that you are not winning the argument irrelevant to the argument?

ps Is there anyone reading this thread that agrees with the main point that @DunkelSaturn is proposing?
 
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DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
@DunkelSaturn
You would do well to re-read the last two or three pages.
More and more people are becoming irritated by your behaviour on this thread.
You ignore factors that repute your argument, you have people asking for moderation, you have effectively said it is OK to shout to get your point over.

A question for you. How is saying that you are not winning the argument irrelevant to the argument?

ps Is there anyone reading this thread that agrees with the main point that @DunkelSaturn is proposing?
LOL!!! becoming irritated about someone giving arguments, numbers, stats, based assertions, and proof of what he actually says is not an argument, just LOL, how can someone win an argument or prove his claims saying the afirmation :" hey your claims are irritating, none likes you or your argument, hey you should shut up your claims, arguments, stats, and facts because you´re making people angry and irritated".
I just can´t avoid chuckle hehehe.
Is like saying also: "hey I believe earth is flat, and your physics, math, astronomy, and science facts are irritating me, and many many people that gives me likes (because they believe the same as me) confirms this, so my truth is based in how many likes I do receive and who´s more popular or loved".

Check it up buddy, is easy to understand ;)

And...The fact I don´t receive likes or most forum readers don´t agree with me it proves absolutely nothing.
You´re using a fallacy of false equivalence and also an argument to the consequence when you´re claiming that:
"All people don´t like you, all people don´t like your posts, don´t read them or are not agreed with them;
When majority of people don´t like a person and don´t agree with them, those people are always right and the other is wrong..." then...
ERGO you´re wrong because majority don´t like you or your posts and not agree with you.

Check your mind a little bit buddy, and chill out :)
 
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DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
Keep it easy fellas :)

Let's not point fingers or "talk" out loud, please and thank you :cool:
Please verify who´s the one doing salty and confrontational comments out of context please.
I have always based all my claims with reliable data and facts, and have never directed an agressive comment and/or confrontational actitude to none here as one of the dudes is doing it right now, please keep an eye in that.
 

DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
Dude your drunk, I do not even have a 1000 wonderlevels in my city as I removed quite a lot.
And no its a combination of numbers, but you keep pushing numbers in there in your favour.
I gave you those numbers because I actually don´t know what´s your actual AW level number, so I gave you in this elucubrated analisis of your CAL the higher I could possibly made so I could be the fairer I could with you as I can and make your claim of "multiple brown bears don´t doing nothing in comparison of the actual tournament formula", a little more closer of what you´re claiming.
But please, feel free to put your own calculated CAL or at least put your total AWs levels (and I will do it for you) , and I will also demonstrate to you that, (now with all the penalty included in its totality) my "so big" advantage in camping at the begining of the Embassies is just some timeboosters away.

Note: I pretty well remember one day you saying in this forum or in beta, that you got thousands of timeboosters, if that´s correct timeboosters wouldn´t be a problem for you and the rest of multiple brown bear owners.
-Be more respecful please, I never called you nothing as near as what you called me now (drunk), I expect the same education, since we don´t agreeing in something does not means we can insult each other.
-Please notice that I respond to all your claims, and explain you all that in my knowledge of English I can explain you, something you have not made in many many of my suggestions, arguments and questions.
 
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DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
Wow and lol.

Let me state myself and crazy wiz again (and again and again )

we want balance to the game. Bigger balance. Not narrow vision.
Yes, and I´m with you in that subject, we all want this game as balanced and fair as it can be my friend. But Brown Bears stackability does not give to this game nothing close to "balance" and fairness, all the contrary. #facts

you yourself pointed out in your message. That reaching traders of unur, i lose out the benefit. That’s the imbalance we are talking about. But you will have have the imbalance in your favour camping in chapter whatever. So the bears is a solution for me to break even with your performance ( honestly, I don’t even care about ranking. I play when time permits, slow down on a busy week)
I´m not a psychic in fact, my analysis was made at respect of what I´m seeing in your city, and since you looks like to be a very analytic tournament player (yes the one that once suggested me that I should erase my Martial Monastery since this AW affects you more by the penalty than what it helps you in tournaments, yes, at that level Im talking about) I have thought in the reason behind you ditching your so called big and enourmous advantage in research (camping in the very 1st node research of embassies) reaching to "traders of unur", and my only conclusion was that you was doing so because this whole chapter (embassies) would give you lot of squad size upgrades, extra expansions and the capability to upgrade your Training Grounds, so... since your 4 brown bears will clearly neutralize the impact of the so "enourmous and big" penalty that a whole chapter would give you, those extra squads size would allow you to open more and faster provinces for tournament usage, and a better and faster training grounds, definetely would worth the effort and the enourmous (all the contrary) penalty of a whole chapter.
But well ignore all the above, in this case it is something I can´t prove, I just wanted to explain you my reasons behind it and since this not violate any rule I can post it, and if not, please mods notify me where I´m incurring a fault.

by the way, I remember you. Were you the guy who asked for my bear city and play my city when I took a long break from the game.

(trust me : I’m not as obsessed about the game / imbalance I suffer as you are - I can take a break when life gets demanding. And I’m not defending vehemently. We all are desperately :D trying to show multiple larger imbalances which you vehemently refuse to see )
- What I asked you in its time was that, if you was not going to keep playing it would be cool you can give your account be this person me or someone else of my former fellows. All this because you told us you was going to leave the game or something like that, thing you did, but you came back after all. And I asked for your account cause I used to believe in that FS and its principles always thinking in my fellows first, until I found the sad reality, but that´s other history.

(trust me : I’m not as obsessed about the game / imbalance I suffer as you are - I can take a break when life gets demanding. And I’m not defending vehemently. We all are desperately :D trying to show multiple larger imbalances which you vehemently refuse to see )
Most of my heated claims go to Crazy Wizard and some rude people here, that´s why they are so inducible. I want to prove my claims for the better of my fellows, my neighbors, for the good of this game (so more people is interested in the competitive part of this game ) and myself.

Those vehement imbalances affect us ALL my friend, all players in elvenar are affected by them. But not all players have those multiple brown bears you´ve got.
 

JollyElf

Spellcaster
Hey buddy. Thanks for clarifying.

Honestly, I’m doing the chapter just cuz I’m bored. it will definitely penalise my performance irreversibly - I just decided to enjoy the story line. And more than the bear can provide, if I progress further. (100% base + Simia + 1 bear = 200%. 200% to 250% with 1 extra bear is not 50% increase but 50/200x100 = 25% compared to previous. And 250 to 300 is 50/250x100 = 20% and so on…)

And yes, everyone of us, also wiz I believe, wants a fair game, including the bears. Just that the other imbalances are so huge, that without fixing that, losing the bear in an advanced city (with expansions and research) is too punishing.

I liked your more bears for crafting ideas, but that met with a very definitive discussion from Gargon.

And personally, I think if you had a poll for this without talking, you would have more supporters than now. You use strongly worded language, that antagonises people. And if you want to get people to support your idea, you have to befriend them, not antagonise them.

agree to disagree is also a gentlemanly closure.

PS : MM is useful for people in tournaments overall. Was just exploring a particular scenario where the extra 30 levels can hurt more than benefit, especially with uu crafting and occurrence probability of uuu etc.,
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
Balance fixes are fine, but a balance fix is a balance fix. this means you balance everything.

If a car is broken, you fix the whole car, there is no point in fixing the flat tire if the engine is broken.
You either do nothing and let the broken car be broken or you fix the engine and the tire.

So could there be something in the future to fix the bear(flat tire) imbalance? sure, but only if we also fix the the much bigger issue of the tournament forumula (broken engine)

As said before "fixing" the bears while not ficing the tournaments would be even more unfair than it is now. because bears camouflage some of the imbalance issues on the tournament side.
 

Herodite

Senior Forum Moderator
Elvenar Team
Hi Guys! Right, we've had a good debate about this haven't we however, I think things are getting to a rather heated stage. Whilst there were some extremely valid points up for discussion earlier in the thread, I think we're getting to a stage where things are getting repetitive, and the conversation... impassioned, if you will. Now I don't want to be extreme and close this Thread, but I think if there's nothing more constructive to add to the original issue, it's best to bring this to a natural close.

What I don't want are things to become personal based simply on a difference of opinion. Once that starts it's a fast spiral down and I will have no choice but to close the thread.

If you do have anything new to add to the original point, please continue to be mindful of others, and of course our Forum Rules.

Kind Regards

Herodite :)
 
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