Please Nerf multi-Bears/Phoenix stackability, not fair for the game.

[Heymrdiedier]

Nice analysis @DunkelSaturn. I'm trying to get my head around whether you're comparing apples with apples as Simia's benefit isn't strictly squad size. Either way it pretty much amounts to the same thing.

The other thing I would say is that there's a sweet spot of 3 or 4 Brown Bears. Any more than that and it's not practical to keep feeding them all every week, even though it would have been perfectly possible to own the buildings.

Thinking about that, maybe a good idea would be to make the bears use a different type of pet food than everything else. If they limit that to one a week you can gain then all the extra bears don't matter.

I like this suggestion a lot more then everything i've read here before. Have the brown bears eat a different kind of food.
Tough personally i think we need a new pet thats just better then the brown bears to even it out for everyone. Since the costs of tournament and spire grow exponentionally in the last chapter, without getting a way to lower to cost, i think we should be able to grow our troops accordingly aswell.

Maybe a pet that uses the same formula as tournament/spire calculation to give you extra troops/goods accordingly.

 

[Turing]

Simia does even worse vs brown bear than seems from the numbers in Dunkel's post, because adding 105 wonder levels is going to substantially increase the tournament cost - perhaps adding 15%-20% for many players in chapter 15+ who can build them (less for very end game players with many wonders maxed); whereas the brown bears have no impact

 

[Pauly7]

Simia does even worse vs brown bear than seems from the numbers in Dunkel's post, because adding 105 wonder levels is going to substantially increase the tournament cost - perhaps adding 15%-20% for many players in chapter 15+ who can build them (less for very end game players with many wonders maxed); whereas the brown bears have no impact

Plus... Bears give you extra troops every two days.... though Simia reduces sentient goods decay.

 

[JollyElf]

I would also like similar analysis with fire Phoenix and victory springs, needles, dragon abbey, heroes forge and temple of towards.
How much kp, time etc.,

 

[Far Reach]

The other thing I would say is that there's a sweet spot of 3 or 4 Brown Bears. Any more than that and it's not practical to keep feeding them all every week, even though it would have been perfectly possible to own the buildings.

Thinking about that, maybe a good idea would be to make the bears use a different type of pet food than everything else. If they limit that to one a week you can gain then all the extra bears don't matter.

It is a nice idea, but I don't think that it would work. A player could feed their brown bears just once a month (say) and splurge a month's worth of time boosters and supply instants on training troops during the short window that the bear is fed.

 

[DeletedUser501]

Nice analysis @DunkelSaturn. I'm trying to get my head around whether you're comparing apples with apples as Simia's benefit isn't strictly squad size. Either way it pretty much amounts to the same thing.

The other thing I would say is that there's a sweet spot of 3 or 4 Brown Bears. Any more than that and it's not practical to keep feeding them all every week, even though it would have been perfectly possible to own the buildings.

Thinking about that, maybe a good idea would be to make the bears use a different type of pet food than everything else. If they limit that to one a week you can gain then all the extra bears don't matter.

Well my friend Pauly, one fellow of mine feeds 17 pets ( 13 Red pandas, 2 Fire Phoenix, 2 brown bears ) every week and he still has pet food to spare.
I agree, if this new pet food could be as rare as for example a " teleport building" to obtain (at the sake of just 1-2 per week), it would be nice if it is applied.

Simia does even worse vs brown bear than seems from the numbers in Dunkel's post, because adding 105 wonder levels is going to substantially increase the tournament cost - perhaps adding 15%-20% for many players in chapter 15+ who can build them (less for very end game players with many wonders maxed); whereas the brown bears have no impact

Yes absolutely, I forgot to include the penalty for tournament that those multiple Simia Sapiens would give you, and makes even more OP brown bears that gives you a superior effect than those simia sapiens and the formula for tournament/spire is not impacted by them.
InnoGames should have included, since the begining every level of brown bears you´ve got in the overall tournament formula.

I would also like similar analysis with fire Phoenix and victory springs, needles, dragon abbey, heroes forge and temple of towards.
How much kp, time etc.,

No. Cause Fire Phoenix is as rare as I just have saw only 2 players in my world with them, and only one of them is a very good tourney player. I have never seen a player with 3 or more fire phoenix, contrary case with players with 3, 4, 5 brown bears who abuse of them, making big tourney scorers to players that posses them.
Besides players that got an extra fire phoenix spent an important amount of money in them (contrary at what multiple brown bear owners did, even a third brown bear was obtainable for free).
Llke I said some lines before, another fire phoenix just help a little bit in encounters where your units are mainly HR, HM & LM beyond that is not that notorious its effect, and is far from what multiple brown bears are for imbalance to this game.

 

[Sigyn]

I really don't see what's wrong with multiple bears etc. the longer you play the game the more opportunity you have to build up these buildings - so its a reward for loyalty - esp. as so many players just leave.
I only have 1 bear myself but I don't object to others having multiples - they are players with more experience and have put the time/effort/diamonds in to get them. As time progresses there are opportunities to gain multiple phoenixes/bears it just a question of patience.

 

[DeletedUser501]

I really don't see what's wrong with multiple bears etc. the longer you play the game the more opportunity you have to build up these buildings - so its a reward for loyalty - esp. as so many players just leave.
I only have 1 bear myself but I don't object to others having multiples - they are players with more experience and have put the time/effort/diamonds in to get them. As time progresses there are opportunities to gain multiple phoenixes/bears it just a question of patience.

Problem is not Bears and Pets in general, the problem is only one in specific, Brown Bears.
I´ve put time (lot of time in this game), effort (hundreds of hours to get my city and tournament level as it is now), and money (I´ve spent a lot here) like many other players that don´t even have the opportunity to craft another brown bear base, being this building the most imba of the history of this game that has remained intacted.
Of course many can have multple new bears/phoenixes, but devs will never, ever again, will allow a building like the brown bear again being released in any event.
The last pets that has been put in events are barely good, many are not that good and other are only good in big quantities.

 

[CrazyWizard]

Problem is not Bears and Pets in general, the problem is only one in specific, Brown Bears.
I´ve put time (lot of time in this game), effort (hundreds of hours to get my city and tournament level as it is now), and money (I´ve spent a lot here) like many other players that don´t even have the opportunity to craft another brown bear base, being this building the most imba of the history of this game that has remained intacted.
Of course many can have multple new bears/phoenixes, but devs will never, ever again, will allow a building like the brown bear again being released in any event.
The las pets that has been put in events are barely good, many are not that good and other are only good in big quantities.

But you had the opportunity to adjust your town to the new tournament / spire rules and opportunity most bear users did not have.
Yes you might not had the opportunity to get multiple pets, but you had the opportunity to get another unfair game advantage multi pet users do not have.

In the end we both have an unfair advantage towards eachother

 

[Turing]

I really don't see what's wrong with multiple bears etc. the longer you play the game the more opportunity you have to build up these buildings - so its a reward for loyalty - esp. as so many players just leave.
I only have 1 bear myself but I don't object to others having multiples - they are players with more experience and have put the time/effort/diamonds in to get them. As time progresses there are opportunities to gain multiple phoenixes/bears it just a question of patience.

But there aren't. That's the point of this thread. At the moment you can only ever get 1 brown bear. You can craft it in the MA, and then no more will be offered. No matter how much time you spend on the game, or how much money you spend you will only ever have 1 brown bear. Multiple bears were only possible during the original event when they were first added - long before you or I started playing.

Dunkel's original request in post 1 of this thread was that everyone have the opportuntiy to gain multiple bears, exactly as you describe. And that's the suggestion to which some owners of multiple bears are strongly objecting.

 

[DeletedUser501]

But you had the opportunity to adjust your town to the new tournament / spire rules and opportunity most bear users did not have.
Yes you might not had the opportunity to get multiple pets, but you had the opportunity to get another unfair game advantage multi pet users do not have.

In the end we both have an unfair advantage towards eachother

I can´t believe you´re defending this until the end. Well, time to take that down all this nonsense once and for all.

If we follow MinMax formula of the impact of what every single research dependent node (obligatory researches) affects your overall tournament performance, it gets that every obligatory node penalize your tournament (making yours and enemy squad size bigger) by 0.45%. So in the new tournament system and depending of how many obligatory nodes in the research tree does exists, the penalty per whole chapters must be as the following:

• So in this case a player like me (ELF) that is camped in the very first node of the 16th chapter would get a penalty summation percentage of: +1%, +1%, +2%, +3%, +3%, +4%, +5%, +6%, +6%, +7%, +8%, +9%,+10%, +11%, +0.45% = 76.45% and/or a value of M of 382 in research penalty.
• A player like CrazyWizard (ELF), that, according to him, he´s camped at the beginning of the 17th chapter would get a penalty summation percentage of: +1%, +1%, +2%, +3%, +3%, +4%, +5%, +6%, +6%, +7%, +8%, +9%,+10%, +11%, +12% +0.45% = 88.45% and/or a value of M of 411 in research penalty.

Now that we know how much the penalty in tournament for our respective chapter progression is calculated, let´s go forward to what this means in terms of unit squad size in tournament.

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• According to the actual "City Advancement Level Model" (CAL Model), the tournament formula to calculate an accurated tournament penalty to the squad size (yours and enemy one) and cattering costs also, per province in every round is:

So...

1.-DATA:
Dunkel (me) :
-Expansions =131
-Next Premium expansion cost = 4000
-Chapter =16
-Chapter progression = 1
-AWs levels = 315

I will get the following penalty reflected in my CAL:

2.- DATA:
CrazyWizard:

Note: I won´t consider neither AWs advancement nor the exact next premium expansion since we´re demonstrating the pure impact of research in the penalty for TSS (tournament squad size), following the assertion of CrazyWizard himself that Brown Bear stackability is not sufficient for the penalty that Research gives him.
I will also add everything that is respective to his actual chapter achievement (expansions in the research tree), everything else is available in every chapter of the game (AWs and Premium Expansionss)
-Expansions = 158
-Next.Premium Expansion = 4000 (the exactly same as me, I don´t know what´s his, but we´ll keep it up the same for the sake of the argument)
-Chapter= 17
-Chapter progression = 1
- AWs = 315 (the exactly same as me, obviously he´s got much more but in this case we´ll keep it up the same for the sake of the argument)

C.Wizard will get the following penalty reflected in his CAL:

A difference in CAL of : 10070 - 7312 = 2758 CAL !!!!!!

• Once we´ve got the correct penalty that would reflect in troops (TSS) and cattering costs, the comparison between my tournament in province 45th (six stars) and CrazyWizard tournament in province 45th (six stars) is:

Dunkel one:

C.Wizard one:

127,454 - 92,552 = 34902 units

So: If we only count that he FOR SURE has a Simia Sapiens in the level of mine (he probably has it in the 35th level but I´m not adding AWs progress difference here) that would gives him +45% surplus of his normal training squad size, that he´s got at least the same Barracks and Merc Camp training speed as mine and better training speed from his Training Grounds than mine, HE WOULD ONLY HAS A DECRIMENT IN HIS TRAINING SQUAD SIZE OF THE VERY 18% PER PROVINCE IN COMPARISON OF MINE!!!

• HE JUST NEED TO TRAIN 18% MORE EXTRA UNITS IN EVERY TOURNAMENT (AT LEAST 18% MORE) TO BE AT MY LEVEL IN MY SAME CHAPTER "ADVANTAGE CONDITION".

Units that can be obtained and regained so easily with the usage of 3 Brown Bears (imba bears) that gives him a surplus of +150% of his normal training size (simia already included in the training size surplus), and plenty time boosters of 5 hrs, assuming he use 33 of them every week (from what Spire gives you if you´re in a gold spire FS).

Quick Demonstration:
If I use in a whole tournament around 5,000,000 Rangers in 60 provinces x 6 stars, he would have to train only 900,000 more (5,900,000 in total) to reach the same 60 provinces x 6 stars like me.
If he got like me, a training speed of 138,415 rangers x 15:15 hrs with one single Brown Bear surplus, he with two more would be getting aprox. 210,000 Rangers x 15:15 hrs (maybe less due to his superior FA level). He would be reaching the 900,000 extra rangers in around 67 hrs (67/5 = 13.4 Booster of 5 hrs, ridiculous!), so the so big BIG and Enourmous Research advantage a player like me has over him, is just at 13-15 time booster of 5 hrs of distance. Beyond this, and once this is solved, all the TimeBoosters and/or units trained during the effect of the multiple bears, would give him a far BY MUCH superior advantage, no matter what.
Note: I remember one time he saying he got thousands of timers in his stock, so timers wouldn´t be any problem for him.


@CrazyWizard What you´re trying to make us think is that research penalty is far superior above everything else and so far superior in that aspect than what multiple brown bears with their stackable effect would give you as a advantage, assertion totally false.
Please stop defending the indefensible.

 

[JollyElf]

The issue pointed is that younger cities have foresight of the multiplicative nature of the formula.

Whereas a person who has spent hefty amounts for expansions cannot UN-place their expansions.

Another point I’d like is to make manual battles available for phone players. There’s a huge imbalance for PC players with respect to app only players : people who travel a lot/ don’t have access to PC for various reasons.

to surmise crazy wiz , there is a larger picture of imbalance and bears is a part of them/solution to some. I’d like to see the larger imbalance addressed (per say, expansion costs to units consumed et. al.)

 

[JollyElf]

Well my friend Pauly, one fellow of mine feeds 17 pets ( 13 Red pandas, 2 Fire Phoenix, 2 brown bears ) every week and he still has pet food to spare.
I agree, if this new pet food could be as rare as for example a " teleport building" to obtain (at the sake of just 1-2 per week), it would be nice if it is applied.



Yes absolutely, I forgot to include the penalty for tournament that those multiple Simia Sapiens would give you, and makes even more OP brown bears that gives you a superior effect than those simia sapiens and the formula for tournament/spire is not impacted by them.
InnoGames should have included, since the begining every level of brown bears you´ve got in the overall tournament formula.



No. Cause Fire Phoenix is as rare as I just have saw only 2 players in my world with them, and only one of them is a very good tourney player. I have never seen a player with 3 or more fire phoenix, contrary case with players with 3, 4, 5 brown bears who abuse of them, making big tourney scorers to players that posses them.
Besides players that got an extra fire phoenix spent an important amount of money in them (contrary at what multiple brown bear owners did, even a third brown bear was obtainable for free).
Llke I said some lines before, another fire phoenix just help a little bit in encounters where your units are mainly HR, HM & LM beyond that is not that notorious its effect, and is far from what multiple brown bears are for imbalance to this game.

I’d still like to look at those numbers for those 5 AWs

 

[JollyElf]

Pet food required:

• 3 per week.

I’d say 3 bears x 2 per day x 7 days = 42 pet food per week.
Simia passively adds to production all time, including when instants are used.
So comparing like scenarios. Apples with apples.

 

[Far Reach]

@CrazyWizard What you´re trying to make us think is that research penalty is far superior above everything else and so far superior in that aspect than what multiple brown bears with their stackable effect would give you as a advantage, assertion totally false.
Please stop defending the indefensible.

I didn't read @CrazyWizard as commenting only about the research penalty. (II actually agree with you that the research penalty in itself isn't too much of an issue). Expansions and Ancient Wonder levels are significantly unbalanced too. To give the example of my city versus yours.

(1) AW levels - I have 1017 levels versus your 315. That gives us respective CAL multipliers of 4.052 and 1.945
(2) Expansions - I have 123 regular and 35 premium expansions versus your 120 regular and 11 premium *. That gives respective CAL multipliers of 126.6 and 109.8
(3) Research - I'm at the end of C18 so that we are roughly 90 mandatory techs apart. That makes my CAL research multiplier roughly 1.5 times yours.

The above combined means that my CAL is approximately 360% of yours. For two players such as ourselves with 1 brown bear and a high level Simia Sapiens that equates to about 10 extra (and permanently fed) brown bears.

(To be fair these figures are overstating the penalty since my research levels give me troop production upgrades and slightly better units. The Wonder levels also give me some benefit over you, although not a particularly significant one. I estimate that my disadvantage is approximately equivalent to you having an additional 4 brown bears.)

* A player who places premium expansions in place of regular expansions will get a bigger benefit of course.

 

[DeletedUser501]

I’d say 3 bears x 2 per day x 7 days = 42 pet food per week.
Simia passively adds to production all time, including when instants are used.
So comparing like scenarios. Apples with apples.

What are you talking about? Most multi-brown bear owners use them once per tournament and that´s it, even tho, if they´ve got much more timers they can even use their multiple imba-bears per 2 whole tournaments without the need of use even 6 pet food per 2 tournaments.
If that´s your case, that´s your own and inefficient game, most people wouldn´t waste that huge amount of pet food for free.

I’d still like to look at those numbers for those 5 AWs

You can do it yourself. To me it has no place here.

 

[JollyElf]

brown bears who abuse of them

Please say use them not abused
Problem is some people have paid huge amounts of money to get them.
how to differentiate those who had the foresight to play the event smartly and those who paid for them.
ps
And do I remember correctly, we were in same FS at some point of time. Your name sounds familiar.

 

[JollyElf]

What are you talking about? Most multi-brown bear owners use them once per tournament and that´s it, even tho, if they´ve got much more timers they can even use their multiple imba-bears per 2 whole tournaments without the need of use even 6 pet food per 2 tournaments.
If that´s your case, that´s your own and inefficient game, most people wouldn´t waste that huge amount of pet food for free.


You can do it yourself. To me it has no place here.

Please refrain from personality.

I’m just comparing like scenarios.
If that’s the case, then your numbers are valid only for those 12 hours the bears are fed. Not for entire duration of the week as Simia has passive benefits throughout the time.

 

[DeletedUser501]

I didn't read @CrazyWizard as commenting only about the research penalty. (II actually agree with you that the research penalty in itself isn't too much of an issue). Expansions and Ancient Wonder levels are significantly unbalanced too. To give the example of my city versus yours.

Do people with multiple pets have an advantage? yes thats a fact.
Do people who have not placed all expansions, and are camping in certain lower chapters have an advantage? Yes thats a fact.
Do people with certain old sets have an advantage because they can use there massive goods production to get an edge?, Yes thats also a fact.

The main issue is the unfluence of expansions and research. martial prowess is reached halfway the elvenar chapter. after that all goes down each chapter adds about 5-11% more unit production and asks about 20-30% more units to reach the same score is quickly escaltes into a point where no bears can fix that deficit anymore

but last but not least is the tourment formula research*expansions*wonderlevels.
Optimal reseach we already determined halfway the elvenar chapter. but those other values are key.
Wonderlevels we can control, we can remove and destroy wonders, but we cannot undo expansions and this is where the reason my bears cannot compete agains expansions.

Now fingers are pointed towards the stackability of pets, but the imbalance in expansions / research is a much bigger issue than any set of stackable pets can ever achieve.
When I was called an elite snob for fighting for my pets it turned out that that the finger pointing came from someone who has a mayor research / expansion advantage. an elite from the other side of the coin. (thou in the future he to will be trashed by much more efficient towns on his side of the coin anyway)

@Far Reach Looks like a lot of comments from him, and even more specifying the above said by me.
In my analysis I exactly considered the exact assertion of CrazyWizard, that´s what the above specifically was directed by that argument.
If crazy wizard gives us his own CAL with his own AWs levels, and his own premium expansions, I bet his CAL could be of the double of mine.
So it would tell us that his problem IS NOT research, the supposed overwhelming advantage he says I´ve got over him; His Problem wouldn´t be also the total numbers of expansions he´s got (since I considered them all in the analysis above), his problem would be his AWs levels.

 

[DeletedUser501]

Please refrain from personality.

I’m just comparing like scenarios.
If that’s the case, then your numbers are valid only for those 12 hours the bears are fed. Not for entire duration of the week as Simia has passive benefits throughout the time.

Scenarios of your own anecdotic experience.

Are valid since I exposed that the usage of the brown bears is available and dependent of Time Boost usage, not in the passive manner as Simia. So all the above is in less than those 12 hours. It is obvious Idk what someone would omit it.