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Please Nerf multi-Bears/Phoenix stackability, not fair for the game.

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Gargon667

Mentor
- Why do you think Inno would do tourney more difficult from what is now?
- We´ll never get back to what tourney use to be, I really doubt that a super improvement like one fight/encounter per province, that reduced lot of that stubborness and was loved by all would be taken away by anything that could be place in tournament instead. I don´t know why do you think it would happen.
- This won´t be "for all pets" (I clearly remarked that would be applied only to brown bears and never wrote "all pets" here), They won´t be "unlimited"(there would be obviously a limit of BBears you can get) and not for "everybody" (cause players would have either buy them or works for them in-game). In my proposal I explicitly remarked the word "oportunity" , which means InnoGames would give a chance to anybody that wants several brown bear pets but they won´t give them for free (The justice is applied by that opportunity, everybody would have the chance but if they don´t want pay the price they won´t get them) . Please read well what I´m saying my friend Gargon :) .

Sorry to say that, but none of what you say helps anything at all. I did actually read it :)

I am not saying Inno will change the system back. But handing out silly amounts of the best pets brown bears and firebirds (nobody cares if you have 17 coldfire phoenixes, those you can spam if you like they don´t matter) will simply make the tourneys far too easy.

If I can get 7 or 10 or whatever your limit is brown bears, that means more or less unlimited troops. Tourneys would become ridiculously easy, if Inno does not increase difficulty at the same time. It turns into a silly clicking orgy again where the one who can do the most mindless clicking wins. They don´t have to change the tourney system back for that. I already now score more than 10k points every week (I reduced it already from a 13k average because I don´t feel like doing the clicking every week and no other reason that that) and 20k+ in the easy ones. Give me another 5 brown bears and I will score all my provinces again 6 times every week, essentially turning the game back to being limited by province numbers and mindless clicking. I would hate that, on the contrary I would rather have more difficult tourneys, so I don´t have to click as much until i run out of troops :D

Give me the opportunity and I WILL get all the bears you want to hand out. So please DON´T give me the opportunity.
 

DeletedUser501

Enchanter
Have you never met any information from MinMax Gamer? Besides his many posts on various Elvenar forums, you can also look around his website. This is the person who figured out the formula using a large data gathering project. My quick search showed these two posts which could interest you:

https://minmaxgame.com/tournament-and-spire-requirements-2020/

https://minmaxgame.com/tournament-progression-model-2020/
Thank you. I´ll get all the info and once and for all take down all the nonsense some here are defending.
 

DeletedUser501

Enchanter
See anything you don't like, you just ignore, at least explain why you or I am isolated cases.
For my example I explained that I could not be in the first 5 spots if I was more competitive server.
It means I would be worse off on your server if I played there. but how is my 13K score an isolated case?

- YOU and ME are isolated cases because in the the TOP 50 of the tournament of our respective servers we represent alone just the very 2% of that very top of 50 players. We represent in the top 100 of tournament of our respective servers just the 1% percentage.
We represent together in the top 50 of all the servers (BR1, BR2, CZ1, CZ2, DE1, DE2, DE3, DE4, DE5, DE6, DE7, DK1, EN1, EN2, EN3, ES1, ES2, FI1, FR1, FR2, FR3, FR4, GR1, HU1, HU2, IT1, IT2, NL1, NL2, NO1, PL1, PL2, PL3, PT1, RO1, RU1, RU2, RU3, SE1, SK1, TR1, US1, US2, US3, US4, US5, US6, US7, US8, ZZ1) the 0.08% of all those top scorers! Ergo you and me, no matter what, are an isolated case.

Why? you spend 5000 diamonds a week? you never explain you just state.
You do not like the given example and just state we should ignore it. and with that we should do that? NO!

What? What are you talking about? When did I stated that I spend 5000 diamonds a week?
You should do what?

FYI I cannot do much more than I already do. only during steel and marble could I do more sustained

Remove half my unit production and it will get much worse.
Also soon I will start using diamonds in the tournaments as I no longer have a proper use for them.

So you should at least spend more diamonds than I do/will

and those still won't get me to 18K scores with 3 bears

- If you play manual you very well be able not only to reach my numbers with ease, but to surpass my numbers in tournament.
But most of players don´t have the time or understand it to do manual all long the tournament duration.
. What are you talking about? Diamonds? When did I mentioned them here, what they have to do with all the argument?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I´ll ask you by fifth time my friend:
-Could you refute that a brown bear performs exactly as a full upgraded Simia Sapiens but without the penalty this AW gives you in tournament, without the size of this AW and without the effort in KP and time to upgrade it?
-Could you refute that multiple Brown Bears performs exactly or even better than a hypothetic existance of multiple Simia Sapiens?
 

DeletedUser501

Enchanter
Brown bear create more troops for same effort of speeding up recruitment. So, if you don’t have a brown bear, you just need more time speedups and more tool refills than the person that do. Not the end of the world.

The difference is that those with fewer time boosters will do much more by a single time booster than those who don´t posses a bear or multiple brown bears.
- Someone with 2 brown bears will get a surplus per time booster spell of the very 100% of their normal training squad size.
- Someone with 3 brown bears will get a surplus per time booster spell of the very 150% of their normal training squad size.
- Someone with 4 brown bears will get a surplus per time booster spell of the very 200% of their normal training squad size.
- Someone with 5 brown bears will get a surplus per time booster spell of the very 250% of their normal training squad size.
.
.
.
The consequentiality of all this, the imbalance of all this is just absurd and very obvious, the only ones that defend this are defending this because, hey who don´t want to get those super high surplus in troops for free???
Like I said many times, is like having multiple Simia Sapiens, but much much better than those.
 

DeletedUser501

Enchanter
Sorry to say that, but none of what you say helps anything at all. I did actually read it :)

I am not saying Inno will change the system back. But handing out silly amounts of the best pets brown bears and firebirds (nobody cares if you have 17 coldfire phoenixes, those you can spam if you like they don´t matter) will simply make the tourneys far too easy.

I have a friend who´s got 12 full evolved Red Pandas in his city, this person spent a huge amount of money here, and he would be making lot diamonds because of them, these red Pandas will pay back all the money he spent. Do I have to say something here because he´s got that number of pandas???
OF COURSE NOT, he got to spend a big cash here, in a event system that is very limited to how many quests you can do with a pet that only in big numbers could be great (not like a brown bear that just 2 is better than a anything in this game). He´s got all the right to get as many as he can and I have all the obligation to respect that.

Contrary case with Brown Bears, cause in the time the event of "Zodiac 2019" got light there was still an old event system where you can get as many quests you want and with this as many thingies you want, a normal player, who didn´t spend money could get at least 2 brown bears with ease, and with a low amount of money could get even 4-5 of the most imbalanced and OP unit in the history of this game, which are brown bears.

If I can get 7 or 10 or whatever your limit is brown bears, that means more or less unlimited troops. Tourneys would become ridiculously easy, if Inno does not increase difficulty at the same time. It turns into a silly clicking orgy again where the one who can do the most mindless clicking wins. They don´t have to change the tourney system back for that. I already now score more than 10k points every week (I reduced it already from a 13k average because I don´t feel like doing the clicking every week and no other reason that that) and 20k+ in the easy ones. Give me another 5 brown bears and I will score all my provinces again 6 times every week, essentially turning the game back to being limited by province numbers and mindless clicking. I would hate that, on the contrary I would rather have more difficult tourneys, so I don´t have to click as much until i run out of troops :D

No god, please not that huge amount of brown bears, as you said that would be horrible for the game.
I´m just talking to at least another 1 or 2 bases more for a player that only posses one bear, another base for those who already posses 2, and 3 available brown bear for a new incomer.
And this would be possible only for those who don´t posses them, old brown bear owners who posses more than 3 won´t be allow that.

In this manner players that don´t have as many brown bears as the multiple bear owners will get the change craft at least 3 new brown bears, old brown bear owners would still have their multiple bears intacted, and InnoGames will win a huge income by lot of players that would be happy to buy them.

Note: A new building that, hypothetically speaking, appeared in a new event and had this new building the same or similar effect of a brown bear won´t solve nothing and it could even make things worse, cause not only the players that don´t posses multiple brown bears would be allowed to get them but also old brown bears owners will get them.
 

Turing

Bard
Define a big score. I made one of those citys and i do around 9k tournament points, and still improving every week as i scout more (thats where the timeboosts come in handy)

I was thinking 12k+. Dunkel and Crazy were discussing 13k-17k scores in this thread I think.
I'm curious what chapter you're in for 9k points. At 30-35 provinces that would presumably need 3* troops; and a decent number of advanced scouts researches to have scouted 300+ provinces
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
- YOU and ME are isolated cases because in the the TOP 50 of the tournament of our respective servers we represent alone just the very 2% of that very top of 50 players. We represent in the top 100 of tournament of our respective servers just the 1% percentage.
We represent together in the top 50 of all the servers (BR1, BR2, CZ1, CZ2, DE1, DE2, DE3, DE4, DE5, DE6, DE7, DK1, EN1, EN2, EN3, ES1, ES2, FI1, FR1, FR2, FR3, FR4, GR1, HU1, HU2, IT1, IT2, NL1, NL2, NO1, PL1, PL2, PL3, PT1, RO1, RU1, RU2, RU3, SE1, SK1, TR1, US1, US2, US3, US4, US5, US6, US7, US8, ZZ1) the 0.08% of all those top scorers! Ergo you and me, no matter what, are an isolated case.



What? What are you talking about? When did I stated that I spend 5000 diamonds a week?
You should do what?



- If you play manual you very well be able not only to reach my numbers with ease, but to surpass my numbers in tournament.
But most of players don´t have the time or understand it to do manual all long the tournament duration.
. What are you talking about? Diamonds? When did I mentioned them here, what they have to do with all the argument?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I´ll ask you by fifth time my friend:
-Could you refute that a brown bear performs exactly as a full upgraded Simia Sapiens but without the penalty this AW gives you in tournament, without the size of this AW and without the effort in KP and time to upgrade it?
-Could you refute that multiple Brown Bears performs exactly or even better than a hypothetic existance of multiple Simia Sapiens?
It's only the isolated cases that care.
If you scored 8K a week at place 50 you would not care at all that the n1 one has 3 bears and the number 2 has not.
because with or without bears you are not the person that competes for that top spot, you just enjoy the tournaments.

You care so passionately because you are the 0.08% nobody else cares.
Ans as said before there are multiple issues right now, yes you lack bears, but you have the new tournament formula on your side.
Thats why you compete with those pets. other people can build town that are even more effecient and squash you and every bear user that ever existed in the future. simply because the tournament formula allows you to build towns that are so much more efficient that you simply cannot compete.
It will take time for those towns to be build, but they are comming, don't kid yourself
, the fun part is you will not see those towns compete untill they are there. here is an example fo a town I am building from chapter 4 onwards for the past 12 weeks or so

A town like this thats about half to big already because it's my diamond mine city and that now scores like 500-1600 a week in the tournaments will spank your town out of existence in about a year or so.
1633160649209.png

It's currently researching the forest factory from the woodelves, it's small, has plenty of space for 6 magic workshops, barracks, training grounds and mercenary camp, needles, sapiens, timewarp, dragon abbey and the other combat wonders that matter.
the main reason those buildings arent there is because that space is needed for race junk to get trough the chapters but once they reach that stage they will trash any tourney town in existence.
1Thats why there current scores suck, those towns are weak during there growth phase, once they finished there research phase and start plopping down the right buildings then suddenly they will become king of the hill.

Why? because the tournament formula is a much much much bigger issue.

Just wait untill these towns pop up on various servers. and it will be once again a battle of how many provinces unlocked.

Then those will be the 0.08% and you can just cry into some corner and linger about times long gone.
untill now 0% relic was king, and it was cheap, easy and dirty to do, but since they patched that (why you think they did that?) people will start building towns like these from now on.

Once these towns become more prominent nobody else will be able to compete anymore.

You want balance, then looking at these issues is much more important, and when you look at these things then you can also look at bears.
bears aren't an issue right now. and you are a prime example of this. you compete agains bears because the tournament formula currently favours your town more then those bear towns.

This means those bear towns already have a massive "bear penalty" compared to your town. they build there towns in ways they cannot revoke.
Those towns are screwed permanently. those bears are whats keeping them alive right now.
You on the other hand as a relative newbie had the opportunity to make choices those bear owners do not have. and therefore you can compete with bear owners right now. on paper it should not be possible to compete but your town itself shows you can.

And the example above will trash any bear owner and you included in the future. because of massive imbalance issues in the tournament formula.

But you can't see beyond your blind bear obsession right now. as structon rightfully said before.

Hey Inno developers.
Could you please reorganise the game so that the way I play and the way I have my city set up will always make me the top scorer.
I don't really care about the impact on others, regardless of how they have played in the past or how much money they spent.
Somehow you are in this me, me, me loop, and can't see beyond that.
 
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CrazyWizard

Shaman
I was thinking 12k+. Dunkel and Crazy were discussing 13k-17k scores in this thread I think.
I'm curious what chapter you're in for 9k points. At 30-35 provinces that would presumably need 3* troops; and a decent number of advanced scouts researches to have scouted 300+ provinces
No with 0 relics you pay like 56 goods in province 40 or whatever. it's ridiculously cheap.
You dont fight at all, you don't want to fight with those cheap payment costs

I am a player that sees something and instantly recognises all it weakness and problems you can exploit.
and 0 relics was one of the first exploits I pointed out as very easy to do.

The new tournament formula has some massive exploitative issues. and some massive design flaws outside of the exploit scope.
For example that after a certain point it's impossible to compete in the tournaments. each chapter becomes a massive burden. multi pets can keep you alive a bit longer to offset the burdens. but that burden becomes so big even pets are not going to help you at all
 
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Turing

Bard
No with 0 relics you pay like 56 goods in province 40 or whatever. it's ridiculously cheap.
You dont fight at all, you don't want to fight with those cheap payment costs

No relics - so no goods boost?
Using minmax's analysis the cost is simply linear on goods boost. With no relics the cost of the tourney is 12.5% of the cost with max boost. But your production is 12.5% of normal, so there's no gain or loss in the tourney.

By using a max mountain halls you can MAYBE gain some relative advantage in catering. IIRC minmax doesn't state if the MH counts, since everyone who has one already has enough boost to max that part of the formula. If it does count, then there's no advantage possible.

If not then a gain by a factor of 2 or 3 is possible using max MH and no relics. But that still won't make catering preferable to majority fighting. And it would be very hard to achieve the advancement to get enough advanced scout upgrades to scout 350+ provinces without having any viable goods production.

Care to give specific details of this supposed exploit?
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
No relics - so no goods boost?
Using minmax's analysis the cost is simply linear on goods boost. With no relics the cost of the tourney is 12.5% of the cost with max boost. But your production is 12.5% of normal, so there's no gain or loss in the tourney.

By using a max mountain halls you can MAYBE gain some relative advantage in catering. IIRC minmax doesn't state if the MH counts, since everyone who has one already has enough boost to max that part of the formula. If it does count, then there's no advantage possible.

If not then a gain by a factor of 2 or 3 is possible using max MH and no relics. But that still won't make catering preferable to majority fighting. And it would be very hard to achieve the advancement to get enough advanced scout upgrades to scout 350+ provinces without having any viable goods production.

Care to give specific details of this supposed exploit?
Who told you you need to use factories? that would be dumb.
There are so many event buildings making goods around. those buildings are designed presumed you have a 700% boost.
So you get the lower cost from your relic bonus and no penalty because you do not use factories

You can design very small towns just unlocking orcs for unlimited provinces around this concept that literally have 56 goods of costs at province to many while your event building produces several thousand a day.

Others go even further and use another account to feed the tiny account making it even easier as 5000 goods last you a long while while it's a fraction of there 3h production
 

Turing

Bard
Who told you you need to use factories? that would be dumb.
There are so many event buildings making goods around. those buildings are designed presumed you have a 700% boost.
So you get the lower cost from your relic bonus and no penalty because you do not use factories

You can design very small towns just unlocking orcs for unlimited provinces around this concept that literally have 56 goods of costs at province to many while your event building produces several thousand a day.

Others go even further and use another account to feed the tiny account making it even easier as 5000 goods last you a long while while it's a fraction of there 3h production

Taking the gingerbread mansion, which IIRC has the highest goods of any, then if the city has no relics, no AW, and pretty much no expansions at the start of orcs, it could indeed do 40 provinces on a couple of fully evolved mansions - but there is a minimum size to get sufficient main hall to upgrade to orcs, so this may not be possible. With 20 expansions I think it would need 5 fully evolved mansions.

But with that many missing advanced scout techs, by my count the cost of each encounter at province 400 could be around 60k-80k T2 goods, with each mansion producing 4k/day. So for all 8 encounters 120-160 days to clear a province divided by the number of mansions. That's per province. And the scout time could already be near a week even by province 400.

Then there's the scouting gold cost. The maximum main hall in orcs chapter has a 5700k gold capacity. With the missing advanced scouts the scout cost is in excess of this at province 400 I believe - making scouting that far physically impossible.

And how do you delete the relics to maintain the zero relic state? Clearing 400 provinces gives 3200 relics. Doing a 40-province 6-round tournament gives what - something like 800? Only 1/3 will be boosted and therefore a problem, but it's still a lot. IIRC the MA doesn't use boosted relics. Building an AW, upgrading to 5 and deleting again? You'd need to use 3 AW I guess to cover all 3 boosts. The number of rune shards and KP needed each week could be enormous.
 

Heymrdiedier

Enchanter
Taking the gingerbread mansion, which IIRC has the highest goods of any, then if the city has no relics, no AW, and pretty much no expansions at the start of orcs, it could indeed do 40 provinces on a couple of fully evolved mansions - but there is a minimum size to get sufficient main hall to upgrade to orcs, so this may not be possible. With 20 expansions I think it would need 5 fully evolved mansions.

But with that many missing advanced scout techs, by my count the cost of each encounter at province 400 could be around 60k-80k T2 goods, with each mansion producing 4k/day. So for all 8 encounters 120-160 days to clear a province divided by the number of mansions. That's per province. And the scout time could already be near a week even by province 400.

Then there's the scouting gold cost. The maximum main hall in orcs chapter has a 5700k gold capacity. With the missing advanced scouts the scout cost is in excess of this at province 400 I believe - making scouting that far physically impossible.

And how do you delete the relics to maintain the zero relic state? Clearing 400 provinces gives 3200 relics. Doing a 40-province 6-round tournament gives what - something like 800? Only 1/3 will be boosted and therefore a problem, but it's still a lot. IIRC the MA doesn't use boosted relics. Building an AW, upgrading to 5 and deleting again? You'd need to use 3 AW I guess to cover all 3 boosts. The number of rune shards and KP needed each week could be enormous.
yes of course, the spire set alone is a very good way to get enough goods with 0 relics. How about not clearing your boosted relic provinces, and skipping those tournaments.
But can we get back to the topic at hand, being bears and phoenixess and not again talk about mini citys we have talked about a lot already in other topic?
 

SkyRider99

Mentor
Some players have too much time on their hands. Or maybe reference OCD in a medical dictionary :( There are possibly support groups available.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
yes of course, the spire set alone is a very good way to get enough goods with 0 relics. How about not clearing your boosted relic provinces, and skipping those tournaments.

That is what they used to do :), playing only 2 out of every 3 weeks. But you can´t do that anymore nowadays. You get all relics every week, making this exploit completely impossible.

And it wouldn´t have been a way to win a tourney with that, as you simply don´t have enough provinces to win.

But you could very easily build a 19 chest every week FS that way :)
 

DeletedUser501

Enchanter
Comparison to make this disparity and imbalance of the multiple brown bears (aka. imba bears) clearer for those who can not or don’t want to see it.

Three Simia Sapiens
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Simia Sapiens.jpg


- State : Hypothetical existence (the contrary would make these obviously imbalanced and not healthy for the game) and not even in our dreams developers would allow it.

- Tiles required: 90 tiles = 3.6 full expansions.

- Resources required for these 3 buildings:
In order to get these hypothetical 3 Simia Sapiens at their maximum level of 35 we´ll need:
  • 31,770 x 3 = 95,310 Knowledge Points (KP)
  • 1,120,700 x 3 = 3,362,100 Seeds
  • 20,675,000 x 3 = 62,025,000 Mana
  • 580,300 x 3 = 1,740,900 Orcs
  • Exorbitant amounts of sentient goods also.
- Time to upgrade them :
  • 1640 x 3 = 4920 hrs = 205 days = 29.2 weeks
- Cost in Diamonds :
  • 0 ( only if we don’t count the cost of KP in diamonds.)
- Pet food required :
  • 0
- Benefits :
  • 46 x 3 = + 138% of your normal training squad size.

Three Brown Bears
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

imba bears.jpg


- State : Allowed and permitted (For a tiny portion of people only). InnoGames someway thinks these buildings are all ok, make the game healthy, and it is not an imbalanced situation.

- Tiles Required : 27 tiles = 1.08 expansion (just an expansion for 3 full evolved brown bears )

- Resources required for these 3 buildings:
  • 0 KP
  • 0 seeds
  • 0 Mana
  • 0 Orcs
  • 0 Standar and Sentient goods
- Time to upgrade them :
  • 100 x 3 = 300 seconds

- Cost in diamonds:
  • Only in the past event of “Zodiac 2019” and only if wanted more than 2 Brown bears (2 brown bears were easy and for free to get them since this event still had the old format of never ending quests) around 500 to 800 diamonds.
- Pet food required:
  • 3 per week.
- BENEFITS :
  • 50 X 3 = +150% OF YOUR NORMAL TRAINING SQUAD SIZE (Superior to Simia Sapiens!)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Considerations:

- I’m just considering 3 brown bears, many players have 4, 5 even 6 that feed them every tournament (+300% surplus of your normal training squad size, ridiculous )

Conclusion of this quick comparison:
- Brown Bears are OP by any parameter you measure it and by any side you see it. These buildings (multiple brown bears) should not exist as they are now.

Reference of all the numbers above:

 
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Pauly7

Magus
Nice analysis @DunkelSaturn. I'm trying to get my head around whether you're comparing apples with apples as Simia's benefit isn't strictly squad size. Either way it pretty much amounts to the same thing.

The other thing I would say is that there's a sweet spot of 3 or 4 Brown Bears. Any more than that and it's not practical to keep feeding them all every week, even though it would have been perfectly possible to own the buildings.

Thinking about that, maybe a good idea would be to make the bears use a different type of pet food than everything else. If they limit that to one a week you can gain then all the extra bears don't matter.
 
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