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Please Nerf multi-Bears/Phoenix stackability, not fair for the game.

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Heymrdiedier

Enchanter
In my opinion, the brown bears or pheonixes arent the problem, they are the solution for some players.
They real issue is that the formula to calculate the costs is just plain wrong.
Everything you do in the game, just hurts you, then best thing you can do is have a low chapter city and never evolve it further. How would that generate revenue for inno, i don't know.

We all struggle with this crooked formula and some people use brown bears, others make tiny citys, and even some players just basically break the game rules by having good feeding accounts. Honestly they need to fix that formula

(Also ive said this many time before as well. They need have some inflation on their prizes, inflation makes sure you spend/replace things, instead of hoarding to old things (like money). Those bears and pheonixxes were great when they were released, but 3 years later they should have already felt weak compared to newer prizes. For a long time now, events only give prizes that are a lot weaker then what we used to get, so no, we dont want to replace old stuff)
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
- No, I explained you very well why these buildings (brown bears) are imbalanced and surpass in all aspects whatever penalty players would get in whatever stage in the game they are now, whatever AWs level total number they have now and whatever expansions they´ve got now.
You want to keep focused in my ISOLATED case because, looks like "ad hominem" arguments is what fits better to you.

I asked you something VERY VERY CLEAR, so we can have something to talk and advance in this conversation but you didn´t even noticed it.
You keep talking of own personal case to "refute" my arguments, I gotta tell you, that´s not objetive, that´s not an argument. you´re not demonstrating nothing here.

I will ask you again with black letters:

1.- Right or False that a brown bear performs exactly as a full upgraded Simia Sapiens but without the penalty this AW gives you in tournament, without the size of this AW and without the effort in KP and time to upgrade it?

2.- Right or False that multiple Brown Bears performs exactly or even better than multiple Simia Sapiens?

3.. Would you be ok if the next would be applied or what is your opinion about it?
"
The WIN-WIN solution:
- Allow players that don´t posses multiple brown bears have some more bases of this specific building. InnoGames could open an offer (with diamonds involved) that allow players get 2 or more bases of brown bears allowing general Elvenar population get them.
Being tournament a VERY BIG part of this game, and being Brown Bears the base of a good performance and competition in these tournaments, MANY MANY players from all servers inside Elvenar will spend a big cash for them, giving InnoGames a huge revenue. #Facts
With this change, old owners of Brown Bears will still have their Brown Bears as they are (INTACT), new incomers or players that don´t posses many Brown Bears will have the opportunity to craft the same amount of B.Bears they´ve got paying for them (or by other means) and InnoGames will win a huge amount of money by all the purchases of players like me, that when I could see a offer of a brown bear base I won´t hesitate in buying it."
I am not responding to that part because:
A: I have already responded to it many times and refutedmost of it.
B: It keeps hammering on bears bears bears. In your mind only the bears are an imbalance issue, but I already told and explained to you that the new tournament formula has a much bigger influence than bears including an example. where you needed a mere 9 bears to compete on the same level and that was by manipulating only a single factor. not even 2 of them

What are you expeting from me, that I will dance to the anti bear theme?
Yes bears have an influence, so do other factors not aviable to bear owners that are much more severe as I explained before and as Gargon777 also confirmed as he believed so.

So what discussion do you still like to discuss?
Because in your mind and believe only the bears count, and in your mind and believe everything else is minor compared to bears.
And even a clear example keeps you focussed on bears alone.

So what are you expecting of me?

My point is that you are just focussed on the complications and ignore all the other arguments.
You grab 1 fact and say thats the only important fact and all others are irrelevant.

Unless you are willing to move out of your bear bubble, there is no way we could have a proper conversation.
And you are very clearly not willing to move outside of that bubble
 
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DeletedUser501

Enchanter
I am not responding to that part because:
A: I have already responded to it many times and refutedmost of it.
A: No, you didn´t, you just used evasive, ad hominem and victimist ( talking of you being affected if one of my suggestion took place) arguments.
You never answered any of my questions since the begining. Refuted? You´re the only one (well you and the people that have more than 1 one Brown Bear and still want to have that imba advantage) that believe that.

I´ll ask you by third time:
-Could you refute that a brown bear performs exactly as a full upgraded Simia Sapiens but without the penalty this AW gives you in tournament, without the size of this AW and without the effort in KP and time to upgrade it?
-Could you refute that multiple Brown Bears performs exactly or even better than multiple Simia Sapiens?


Hopefully you won´t evade it next time :) .

B: It keeps hammering on bears bears bears. In your mind only the bears are an imbalance issue, but I already told and explained to you that the new tournament formula has a much bigger influence than bears including an example. where you needed a mere 9 bears to compete on the same level and that was by manipulating only a single factor. not even 2 of them

B: I can´t avoid chuckle a little bit in this, would it be that the title of my post is called : "Please Nerf multi-BEARS/Phoenix stackability, not fair for the game" the reason of exactly that? Obviously I´m going to talk about that subject in a post that is focused in that.

What are you expeting from me, that I will dance to the anti bear theme?
Yes bears have an influence, so do other factors not aviable to bear owners that are much more severe as I explained before and as Gargon777 also confirmed as he believed so.

I´m expecting we (not only you) could advance in this theme in a field we can have a solution for this real problem . Now, I have gave you several SEVERAL solutions, one of those solutions I just posted it here SEVERAL times ( https://en.forum.elvenar.com/index....not-fair-for-the-game.15200/page-3#post-95622 ), but you just ignored it, avoided it.
One would think you don´t want to find a solution, one would think you just want things stay are they are now, with "your" IMBA and OP brown bears as intact, and forget about this issue and elvenar community forget about this issue too. No my friend CrazyWizard, people is affected by this, it is not fair for me, not fair for players that don´t posses the same amount of brown bears you´ve got and it is no fair for the game.
This issue must be solved, one just can´t ignore it and pam! it is over, as it never happened.

So what are you expecting of me?

My point is that you are just focussed on the complications and ignore all the other arguments.
You grab 1 fact and say thats the only important fact and all others are irrelevant.

Unless you are willing to move out of your bear bubble, there is no way we could have a proper conversation.
And you are very clearly not willing to move outside of that bubble

Again, the title of this post is clear, that´s why I opened it in the first place. Moving out from that part could turned in the closing of this thread since the targeted issue would be changed.
You seems to deny the problem of the brown bear stackability as it didn´t existed, as brown bears weren´t OP. I ask you my friend, could you please accept this is a real problem for once? Don´t you think Brown Bears are imbalanced units that must be fixed?

We could advance and focus in all other problems inside Tournament/Spire balance, but we must also focus in the problem that gives just a huge advantage to player over others, Brown Bears (aka.Imba Bears).
 
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DeletedUser501

Enchanter
So what are you expecting of me?

And the same question I could ask it to you.

What are you expecting from me?

Do you want me to shut up, and get conformed?
Do you want people of your same chapter (begining of the 17th chapter), of whatever other chapters that don´t posses the same amount of Brown Bears and have or not the same penalty you´ve got in-game just to shut up if they think this is unfair and conform in a corner and don´t talk about it? To stay quite about a real issue of imbalanced?

I´ve been in several games, some bigger than those InnoGames has, and when a subject as this see light people have a dialogue, many always want their advantage don´t be affected, but at the end devs of those games, if they find something is out of place and imbalanced, they nerf it. You obviously take part of the people benefited by that something "out of place", and I respect you and your part in this forum, but please respect mine, since I have all the right to make notice something so obviously imbalanced.
 
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Far Reach

Conjurer
In an old interview carried on the News from Elvenar thread, Inno project manager Lukas commented:

" We understand the frustration of players who are now able to earn fewer tournament points and individual rewards than before. Nevertheless, no player should be afraid of further progress. For example, from the analyses that we have been running, we can't see that players with more premium expansions now perform worse than players with fewer premium expansions. On the contrary, these players continue to perform significantly better than comparable players. The same is true for Ancient Wonder levels, progress in the research tree and ordinary expansions. How much better these players should perform is of course open to debate, but we can't see any "penalty" that would disproportionately slow down the tournament progress based on any of these factors."

According to Elvenstats, in the last four weeks, @DunkelSaturn has two first places and two second places in the tournament and has a current tourney average of 18k. @CrazyWizard has a lower tourney average of about 13k, but this has still sufficed for many high placings (1,2,4,2,3) in the past 5 weeks. Inno might well take those performances as reason to disregard the assertions in this (and other) threads (or even to conclude that it is an advantage to have fewer brown bears !).

Could I suggest that the best chance of getting improvements (to the Tournament, or indeed any other aspect of Elvenar) will be to present measured arguments and seek to build a broad consensus from the player-base.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
Yes I still get good ranks but thats because my server is just less competitive.
But it tells all that someone with 1 bear reaches 18K and someone with 3 of them gets 13k.

So there must be other factors in play.

The problem with inno's assertion is that they ignore the competitive advantage those people have.
People with a high sense of competittion always strived for optimisation.

Therefore people with many premium expansions for example (which was beneficial for a long time) obviously perform better than expected.
Because competitive player try to get an advantage, the tried to get premium expansions. therefore people with premium expansions have a higher chance of scoring better because thats where they strive for.

Even today if I would build a competitive tourney town, I strive to get premium expansions INSTEAD OF normal expansions.
Why? well premium have a lower inpace so if I build a town with 30 expansions 6 start and 24 premium. my advantage is much better than a town with 30 regular expansions.
What is ignored is the fact I replaced 1 with the other.

Also a year ago we had not yet time to adjust, the 0% relic cities with very few expansions already became an issue and are now dealth with.
It now takes time for people to rebuild and build low expansion chapter 15/16 town to create a similar but harder to aquire low expansion full combat power city which is halfway chapter 16, but those cities are build atm and will become the dominant tournament players of the future.

Because currently thats the best way to rule them all.
They will not have multiple pets, but they have such a massive advantage they simply do not need it.

If I can build a tournament town with only 1/8th or even better of the cost of the competition with bears. then who cares. nobody has 20 brown bears and could feed them. So I would be the ruler of them all.

Like always elvenar only reacts and never proactively tries to avoid problem.
Look at the moonstone set. they pretty much destroyed the game for many players and it took them 2 years, 2 YEARS!!!! to turn the production to bonus +1. how many players have quitted because they could no longer get the goods they needed because nobody wanted there scrolls.
Especially on new world this was a absolute massacre.
I told them literally day 1, this is a ticking timebomb, but it was never fixed before it became an issue

It took them 2-3 years to get rid of the do not complete non mandatory quad size researches.
We also told them it was an issue and made no sense day 1 of release and they never fixed that. and when they fixed that in the name of balance they replaced with with something 10 times worse.

For a while new each new chapter gets less and less unit production bonus, while each chapter gets excelerated tourney / spire costs.\
But they will not fix it untill the problem becomes so dire they can no longer ignore it.
Next chapter they try to fix it by introducing better units, the main problem is those would be great in the old format. but lower damage gains are not that great in an envoirment where half the enemy or more can just ignore that defence because they are not that unit.

Example. in the old format your opponent would be mostly light range, so a unit with a better damage / damage reduction vs light range would be great and even an increase from 70 to 80% would be massive.

But when your opponents are 2 light range, 1 mage, 1 heavy melee and 1 heavy range, those bonus damage / defence becomes mostly useless, because vs 3 opponents it does not work at all.

It looks like they people who develop these things simply lack the understanding of there own game to make it work. it's just a fictional papertrail with total different impacts in the game itself.

I call this the philips conundrum, I once worked for philips medical systems and they calculated and delivered with there half a million dollar+ machines m6 bolts to mount them to the ceiling. on paper this as enough and it saved them like 5 cents on each 500K+ machine they sold.

But paper might be nice in the real live there are other factors. an employee hits the machine, a earth tremor occurs, a heavy truck passes by and sends tremors trough the building ect.

There perfectly fine calculations and 5 cent saving worked great in a perfect world. but in the real world those machines fell of the ceiling left and right. the $50,- they saved during production (you dont sell millions of 500K+ machines) turned out to be a massive multi million dollar disaster. if they would have just shipped it with a very safe m8 or m10 it would have saved them millions.

I feel the same about elvenar, they create balance in some kind if la la fantasy land. and then look at number with a massive comformation bias.
Did 1 year ago people with premium expansions perform better in the tournaments than people without. on average sure.

But did they ever properly questioned why?
They would be really bad scientists, with really bad papers if they would look at there data like elvenar does.
They never asked the question why people with premium expansions perform better, is this because they have more expansions? or are there other factors at play?
they just used comformation bias to confirm there standpoint, and never questioned it
 

DeletedUser501

Enchanter
Yes I still get good ranks but thats because my server is just less competitive.
But it tells all that someone with 1 bear reaches 18K and someone with 3 of them gets 13k.

Yes this says that the player with one bear reaching 18k plays manual all his tourney encounters and the other one getting 13k don´t.

What this don´t says is that those two players are isolated cases that, even tho they must be considered by devs to have a final conclusion over B.Bears, these players alone don´t represent the far majority of the top tourney scoring players, being the majority of them multiple bears owners, having they a huge advantage over the rest Elvenar population that don´t have many as they do.

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I´ll ask you by fourth time, expecting you don´t avoid it once again:
-Could you refute that a brown bear performs exactly as a full upgraded Simia Sapiens but without the penalty this AW gives you in tournament, without the size of this AW and without the effort in KP and time to upgrade it?
-Could you refute that multiple Brown Bears performs exactly or even better than a hypothetic existance of multiple Simia Sapiens?
 
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DeletedUser501

Enchanter
According to Elvenstats, in the last four weeks, @DunkelSaturn has two first places and two second places in the tournament and has a current tourney average of 18k. @CrazyWizard has a lower tourney average of about 13k, but this has still sufficed for many high placings (1,2,4,2,3) in the past 5 weeks. Inno might well take those performances as reason to disregard the assertions in this (and other) threads (or even to conclude that it is an advantage to have fewer brown bears !).

My score (that is an isolated case and is not by any mean a representation of all players that only posses one bear) is only in that level because I play manual all encounters, only for that exactly reason I get those numbers. Most Elvenar players don´t have the time or understand maually fighting to emulate my numbers.
If I had 3-4 brown bears (aka Simia Bears; aka. Imba bears) I could finish any tournament in less than a day with hundreds of unused squads.
In no manner, a normal auto.fighting player could get the level of the top multiple bears owners that are in the top of tournament only because of their OP bears.

Do you know, I would like you can help me out in this, what´s the penalty in percentage per AWs level, Expansion placed and Research Tree node or give me a link where I could find the most accurate information?

I will make some maths about all this just to demonstrate, but now with numbers, the very obvious.
 
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FieryArien

Necromancer
Do you know, I would like you can help me out in this, what´s the penalty in percentage per AWs level, Expansion placed and Research Tree node or give me a link where I could find the most accurate information?
Have you never met any information from MinMax Gamer? Besides his many posts on various Elvenar forums, you can also look around his website. This is the person who figured out the formula using a large data gathering project. My quick search showed these two posts which could interest you:

https://minmaxgame.com/tournament-and-spire-requirements-2020/

https://minmaxgame.com/tournament-progression-model-2020/
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
Yes this says that the player with one bear reaching 18k plays manual all his tourney encounters and the other one getting 13k don´t.

What this don´t says is that those two players are isolated cases that, even tho they must be considered by devs to have a final conclusion over B.Bears, these players alone don´t represent the far majority of the top tourney scoring players, being the majority of them multiple bears owners, having they a huge advantage over the rest Elvenar population that don´t have many as they do.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I´ll ask you by fourth time, expecting you don´t avoid it once again:
-Could you refute that a brown bear performs exactly as a full upgraded Simia Sapiens but without the penalty this AW gives you in tournament, without the size of this AW and without the effort in KP and time to upgrade it?
-Could you refute that multiple Brown Bears performs exactly or even better than a hypothetic existance of multiple Simia Sapiens?
See anything you don't like, you just ignore, at least explain why you or I am isolated cases.
For my example I explained that I could not be in the first 5 spots if I was more competitive server.
It means I would be worse off on your server if I played there. but how is my 13K score an isolated case?

Why? you spend 5000 diamonds a week? you never explain you just state.
You do not like the given example and just state we should ignore it. and with that we should do that? NO!

FYI I cannot do much more than I already do. only during steel and marble could I do more sustained

Remove half my unit production and it will get much worse.
Also soon I will start using diamonds in the tournaments as I no longer have a proper use for them.

So you should at least spend more diamonds than I do/will

and those still won't get me to 18K scores with 3 bears
 
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Stucon

Illusionist
Hey Inno developers.
Could you please reorganise the game so that the way I play and the way I have my city set up will always make me the top scorer.
I don't really care about the impact on others, regardless of how they have played in the past or how much money they spent.
 

kurgkurg

Conjurer
Hey Inno developers.
Could you please reorganise the game so that the way I play and the way I have my city set up will always make me the top scorer.
I don't really care about the impact on others, regardless of how they have played in the past or how much money they spent.
so bad we don't have :) to add for your reply in this forum, "like" is not enough ;)
 

Turing

Bard
They real issue is that the formula to calculate the costs is just plain wrong.
Everything you do in the game, just hurts you, then best thing you can do is have a low chapter city and never evolve it further. How would that generate revenue for inno, i don't know.

How does a low city help? Maybe it would work for spire, but personally I've got higher in the spire as I progressed, and recently found it steadily easier to reach the top. For tournament, how on earth would a baby city ever scout and clear 500-600 provinces? Because that's the very first thing you need to do to get a big tournament score. Avoiding the last couple of chapers may work, but no more than that. And for FA, the more space you have the more L1 buildings you can fit in. I do remember in my first FA absolutely drowning in coin badges, which now I struggle with. So maybe 1 or 2 low cities in a FS to help with certain badges could be good. But for us, blacksmiths usually ends up as the limiting factor in the pit and the bigger the better for making them
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
How does a low city help? Maybe it would work for spire, but personally I've got higher in the spire as I progressed, and recently found it steadily easier to reach the top. For tournament, how on earth would a baby city ever scout and clear 500-600 provinces? Because that's the very first thing you need to do to get a big tournament score. Avoiding the last couple of chapers may work, but no more than that. And for FA, the more space you have the more L1 buildings you can fit in. I do remember in my first FA absolutely drowning in coin badges, which now I struggle with. So maybe 1 or 2 low cities in a FS to help with certain badges could be good. But for us, blacksmiths usually ends up as the limiting factor in the pit and the bigger the better for making them
It might not be the nr 1 tourney scorer, but it's fun, scores well and is enjoyable

For a top tier tourney town you need to build a halfway chapter 16 city on the smallest possible footprint that still makes sense to support all tourney buildings/wonderes and nothing more, preferred all used expansions being diamond expansions to limit costs even further.

Those cities can most likely do weekly 20K+ with there eyes closed.
It's more likely such a town would spend more timeboosters on unlocking provinces than on units

and it's a nice challnenge to build upon very a restricted space to become the king of the hill
 
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Heymrdiedier

Enchanter
For tournament, how on earth would a baby city ever scout and clear 500-600 provinces? Because that's the very first thing you need to do to get a big tournament score. Avoiding the last couple of chapers may work, but no more than that.

Define a big score. I made one of those citys and i do around 9k tournament points, and still improving every week as i scout more (thats where the timeboosts come in handy)
 

BlueBlou

Illusionist
Brown bear create more troops for same effort of speeding up recruitment. So, if you don’t have a brown bear, you just need more time speedups and more tool refills than the person that do. Not the end of the world.
 

Pauly7

Magus
I'm just reading this whole conversation for the first time as I've been away from the forum quite a bit. Admittedly I skimmed some of it, especially when the mud-slinging started.

It's something that has come up before quite a lot of times and it's quite a hot potato for Inno so it's doubtful they will ever respond to it or do something about it, even though either the Firebird or Brown Bear was way more of a balance breaker than the Crystal Lighthouse / Bell Spire ever was.

As people have pointed out, money spending is a big part of it. To this end the Firebird and Brown Bear are two completely different animals. As mentioned, no one has a second Firebird unless they spent serious cash on it. Not only that, but Inno encouraged players to spend big on the second bird. If I remember this correctly, after the event finished they invited people to buy fully evolved second birds for crazy money. For that reason they could never backtrack, nerf, or take away the firebirds. That bed has been made and must be laid in.

Brown Bears are slightly different because the questline of that even was infinite. It was actually pretty easy to find the formula where you didn't ever have to stop completing quests, so long as you could scout / complete enough provinces. It was possible to win enough time boosters as you went along to pay for all the extra province scouting. As @CrazyWizard said, you can't necessarily differentiate between the people that spent money or didn't spend money, but I would question why people might have spent money on bears when it wasn't necessary. I don't think it would be so big of a deal to nerf brown bears.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
I'm just reading this whole conversation for the first time as I've been away from the forum quite a bit. Admittedly I skimmed some of it, especially when the mud-slinging started.

It's something that has come up before quite a lot of times and it's quite a hot potato for Inno so it's doubtful they will ever respond to it or do something about it, even though either the Firebird or Brown Bear was way more of a balance breaker than the Crystal Lighthouse / Bell Spire ever was.

As people have pointed out, money spending is a big part of it. To this end the Firebird and Brown Bear are two completely different animals. As mentioned, no one has a second Firebird unless they spent serious cash on it. Not only that, but Inno encouraged players to spend big on the second bird. If I remember this correctly, after the event finished they invited people to buy fully evolved second birds for crazy money. For that reason they could never backtrack, nerf, or take away the firebirds. That bed has been made and must be laid in.

Brown Bears are slightly different because the questline of that even was infinite. It was actually pretty easy to find the formula where you didn't ever have to stop completing quests, so long as you could scout / complete enough provinces. It was possible to win enough time boosters as you went along to pay for all the extra province scouting. As @CrazyWizard said, you can't necessarily differentiate between the people that spent money or didn't spend money, but I would question why people might have spent money on bears when it wasn't necessary. I don't think it would be so big of a deal to nerf brown bears.

I am not agains doing somthing about pets, the only issue I have is if thats the only change.
If balance is the reason we need to do something about pets than so be it. but if balance is the reason we should balance everything.

Not only the part that benefits the TS
There are much bigger balance issues than pets atm. so those should be adressed as well, or neither should be adressed.

Welcome back btw
 

Pauly7

Magus
If balance is the reason we need to do something about pets than so be it. but if balance is the reason we should balance everything.

Not only the part that benefits the TS
There are much bigger balance issues than pets atm. so those should be adressed as well, or neither should be adressed.
Agreed. As much as Fire Phoenix and Brown Bears are a problem, the new / current tournament formula is more of a problem. I certainly don't hold my breath for anything to get changed. We got over the line with Spire Libraries, but that took over a year from the point they actually admitted it was a problem and needed fixing... and that was the simplest, most obvious fix.... touch of a button stuff.

Welcome back btw
Thanks!
 
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