Optional squad size upgrades

[FieryArien]

(...) But what’s the deal with optional squad size upgrades?Can you explain the trade off in more detail and explain the best strategy for these upgrades.I would be interested to know before l get too far into the game.

@Oscar Kitty , I’m creating a new thread, because we are getting really off topic in The Harvest Festival thread. And yes, I’m to blame, because I brought up optional squad size upgrades. Since I don’t believe the Imbalance in Tournament thread that was recommended to you is suitable for player just entering chapter 2, here’s my extensive reply.


First I have to say I haven’t analyzed the mechanics myself, but I studied a lot information; especially useful was the us forum. Also I witnessed/verified some of these mechanics - for example by researching two squad size upgrades in the middle of tournament - on purpose of course. ;-) I dare to say the following info is pretty accurate.

First some how provinces work info:
- Difficulty of world map provinces is based on their price to scout. And it’s still growing - only Advanced Scouts research affects it by lowering price of unscouted provinces. You have only limited possibilities to lower the difficulty: limited number of advanced scouts researches (to lower the enemy difficulty) and limited number of squad size upgrades (to bring more your troops into the battle).
- Difficulty of tournament provinces is percentage based on your real current squad size. Meaning no matter if your squad size is 200 or 2000 the difficulty is the same - the ratio of your vs. enemy troops is the same. The diffence is only in number of troops you and the enemy bring into battle.

When you research all optional squad upgrades:
+ You’ll be able to quite easily fight your world provinces, especially if you stay within the boundaries suggested by Advanced Scouts, maybe even if you exceed those limit a bit.
- You’ll bring big-ish amounts of troops into your tournament provinces, meaning you’ll have high losses to replace.
- The negotiation prize of tournament provinces will be high.

If you research none of the optional squad upgrades:
- You’ll have to negotiate wast majority of your world provinces (and you’ll be hard pressed for goods up to chapter 4, especially with T1 goods. However, you can adjust your city focus and after entering guest races the negotiation gets just about all right).
+ You’ll be bringing significantly less troops into tournaments and therefore will have much easier time replacing your lower losses before the next tournament. It’s because the speed of training is based on the corresponding military building level, not on your actual squad size (example: level of Training Ground decides the speed of training Cerberus).
+ You’ll have significantly lower negotiation cost in tournaments, because it’s also based on your real squad size.

The decision is yours, you see the + and - for each path. However, tournaments are every week. The more world provinces you finish, the more tournament provinces you have available to reap all those rewards. You’ll be far far far more using your troops and resources in tournaments than in world provinces. In long term! (In short term you’ll have significantly harder time up to and including chapter 4.)

EDIT based on discussion below: the optional squad size upgrades are the ones placed in the blind branches occasional leaves in the technology tree. The ones that have no dependent technology behind it and that can be safely skipped and the player can continue researching technologies into future chapters.

Another EDIT: Useful info was posted below by Sitticus1: The actual increase in squad size is based on the 3x the # of the upgrade. Therefore skipping early optional squad size upgrades doesn’t have significant lasting effect. The later squad size upgrades have much much larger impact on the squad size.

 

[DeletedUser7650]

Thankyou so much FieryArien for taking the time to create this thread and explain this topic in more detail!

Your explanation makes sense to me(unlike that other thread did,lol).This will definately help me to make the right decisions early on in the game and save me some grief later on.Very handy info to know now!

Again,thankyou so much!

 

[Rilian]

@FieryArien VERY nice summary of all the heated discussion!
@Oscar Kitty What it boils down to, if you enjoy the fighting mechanic, and expect to do some fighting, you should probably Research ALL SSU Techs through Chapter IV. This should give you a decent pool of Provinces for Tournaments without 'breaking the bank'.

All of my human characters fight at every opportunity. My Elven Characters have to rely on a fair amount of trade.

That's how I work it out, others will undoubtedly say I am wrong!

 

[DeletedUser7650]

Thankyou Rilian for your imput,much appreciated!
I have only just completed chapter 2 so still time to consider my options.
Can l ask at what point do the SSUs become optional?Have they already and l just didn’t notice?

 

[shadowblack]

If you look at your tech tree you will see that some technologies are not required for anything. Those are optional, while the rest are mandatory to continue with the game. In the later chapters there's one optional SSU tech and three mandatory ones.

 

[DeletedUser6644]

Thankyou Rilian for your imput,much appreciated!
I have only just completed chapter 2 so still time to consider my options.
Can l ask at what point do the SSUs become optional?Have they already and l just didn’t notice?

Squad size upgrade #3 in Chapter 1 is the first optional one. So it looks like you didn't notice

By the way the next two optional ones are #5 (for elves) or #4 (for humans) in chapter 2 (which you also already did presumably) and #9 in chapter 3 (both races). But because the actual increase in squad size is based on the 3x the # of the upgrade, your first two (#3, #4 or #5) only added 9 + 15 (or 12 for humans) to your total squad size, while the next one alone will add 3x9, thus 27..... So at this point the long term effect of those you already completed is minimal if you then choose to skip the future optional ones.

 

[DeletedUser7650]

Squad size upgrade #3 in Chapter 1 is the first optional one. So it looks like you didn't notice

By the way the next two optional ones are #5 (for elves) or #4 (for humans) in chapter 2 (which you also already did presumably) and #9 in chapter 3 (both races). But because the actual increase in squad size is based on the 3x the # of the upgrade, your first two (#3, #4 or #5) only added 9 + 15 (or 12 for humans) to your total squad size, while the next one alone will add 3x9, thus 27..... So at this point the long term effect of those you already completed is minimal if you then choose to skip the future optional ones.

Thankyou Sitticus,
Yeah,l didn’t notice the ones in the first two chapters.Did them all.But it’s good to know that l haven’t done any long term damage.Still can’t tell the difference between the optional and mandatory ones.I am playing the mobile version,not sure if that makes a difference.

Thanks for the info!Much appreciated!

 

[LazyTony]

They are mandatory if links from it lead to another tech further to the right - in other words you have to complete it to move on. If there aren't any links, you can miss it out.

 

[DeletedUser7650]

Thanks LazyTony,l just worked it out and came back to edit my post but you beat me to it.

 

[Lelanya]

@FieryArien VERY nice summary of all the heated discussion!
@Oscar Kitty What it boils down to, if you enjoy the fighting mechanic, and expect to do some fighting, you should probably Research ALL SSU Techs through Chapter IV. This should give you a decent pool of Provinces for Tournaments without 'breaking the bank'.

All of my human characters fight at every opportunity. My Elven Characters have to rely on a fair amount of trade.

That's how I work it out, others will undoubtedly say I am wrong!

Nope Rilian you are right! Fighting IS significantly easier for humans! The priests and paladins are much better troops than the elven equivalent of sorceresses and treants. The sorceress needs +1 range, and watchings the trees move is like waiting for paint to dry.

 

[DeletedUser5976]

watchings the trees move is like waiting for paint to dry.

Or grass to grow?

 

[LazyTony]

The priests and paladins are much better troops than the elven equivalent of sorceresses and treants

Yeah but our golems are waaay better than your sucky mortars

 

[m4rt1n]

I've taken every squad size upgrade to ch11, and compensate for every upgrade by increasing the powers of my AW's, Sanctuary, Bulwark, Shrooms and Flaying Academy to compensate, and still score in the top 100 every week making between 2500-3000 without too many losses.
However I know when to autofight, and manual fight. Sometimes even a round 6 can give almost no losses on auto, then another autofight and lose all the troop on round 1. Its all to do with the spread of different troop types and terrain in my opinion.
I could go into detail, but my explanation would become an encyclopedia.
Troops left to right, 1,2,3,4 and 5.
Simples, what I told my fellowship, send in a 2, and look.
1 is best against 2&3, 5 is best against 1&2, 3 is best against 4&5.

 

[DeletedUser3366]

Thank you for a great thread. This makes it a lot easier to negotiate through the game.

Did all the fighting exist in the original Elvenar-game?

It seems a great many troop-types have been added each with its own mysterious rules. The training camp come over as an add-on too. Could it be that Elvenar was originally programmed to be a trading and building game, with a focus on economy and beautiful buildings, rather than fighting?

 

[DeletedUser]

We always had the fighting on the world map, tournaments came later and at the beginning were based on fighting alongside your neighbours... you can guess how well that went with people having so few active neighbours, and later still it was moved to become a Fellowship activity.

I use barracks troops mostly with some training grounds troops thrown in at times, I rarely use the mercenary camp and if desperate for space will sell it without much thought as I feel it could be useful but actually isn't really.

 

[Lelanya]

Yeah but our golems are waaay better than your sucky mortars

Nope! An upgraded mortar reaches anywhere on the board! Can't beat that

 

[shadowblack]

Nope! An upgraded mortar reaches anywhere on the board! Can't beat that

Almost anywhere. And you're still wrong - the reach is good if there are a lot of obstacles to slow down the enemies, but if the map is mostly empty and the enemies reach you quickly, range is irrelevant. And Mortars move just 1 hex per turn, so can't escape from enemy Heavy Melee.

Granite Golems, on the other hand, have just 3 range, but have considerably more damage and health, and as a bonus have a skill that reduces enemy defense. This makes them somewhat effective even against enemy Heavy Melee.

 

[Lelanya]

Almost anywhere. And you're still wrong - the reach is good if there are a lot of obstacles to slow down the enemies, but if the map is mostly empty and the enemies reach you quickly, range is irrelevant. And Mortars move just 1 hex per turn, so can't escape from enemy Heavy Melee.

Granite Golems, on the other hand, have just 3 range, but have considerably more damage and health, and as a bonus have a skill that reduces enemy defense. This makes them somewhat effective even against enemy Heavy Melee.

Isn't this thread about optional size upgrades? I skip all of them until my provinces are yellow orange and red. And then I bring in a size upgrade as far back as possible, until Woodelves where it's best to press on forward anyway, as from mid chapter on there are plenty enough mandatory ones. That was part of the great rebalance.
Hmm still enjoy fighting with mortar better, just have to remember to sacrifice one piece and start 'running' at turn 1

 

[DeletedUser5976]

I like tourneys, so I have stopped doing the optional squad size upgrades at chapter 5 and resigned myself to red provinces on the map. I cater those, they are still cheaper than higher tourney provinces.

 

[Dr.nYo]

humans have advantage in fighting with barrack troops over elfs. Who doesnt like bigger range number
Thanks for nice thread. Im sure this will be usefull info for all new ppls and old who dont know those thing. It cover all basics and all important stuff. pretty simple to understand. and without wall of numbers
@Lelanya mortals are to lazy to move around, no need to push them