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Discussion News From Elvenar!

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WinterLivia7

Spellcaster
Will there ever be a complete alignment of mobile and browser version? E.g. for the mobile version the display of duration for spells, player and fellowship searches? For the browser: the fast neighborly help.
We are constantly working on further aligning the two versions. For example, we added the search function for fellowships and players to the mobile version a few weeks ago. At the same time, we added the fellowship suggestions for new players in the browser. Further adaptations will follow. [quote/]

I don't know how that function works but I think the suggestions aren't quite OK or are purely random. We are looking for 1-2 new players and most applications are from players in the very first chapters. My suggestion is if a player's ranking points are (let's say) 1000 RP, do not suggest FSs in top 50. This kind of FS will rarely accept really new players and being rejected isn't quite a pleasant feeling (for some might be quite disheartening).
I would also like to find a way that when looking for a FS to join, the first thing to see to be the FS's overview. I am already annoyed how many applicants don't even bother to read the requirements.
 

Laurelin

Sorcerer
I don't know how that function works but I think the suggestions aren't quite OK or are purely random.
Strongly agree with this. As a currently FS-free player [post in 'Players Seeking Fellowships' currently in progress!] who is in early-mid-game (around halfway through Orcs & Goblins), the random (?) Fellowships which the game auto-suggests to me are almost universally unsuitable, and also appear to be biased in favour of FSs with few players, with no consideration given to whether or not those players are of an appropriately matching in-game level and/or are even active, let alone whether their Goods Boosts are compatible, as well as other such non-trivial considerations; in the case of one 'auto-suggested' FS which was especially undesirable, the only [ex-]player in the FS was not only still in Chapter I, but had also been inactive for over a year.

If I myself were a new player, who knew nothing of what constitutes an appropriate FS, let alone how to look up other players and/or FSs on ElvenStats, I could easily unwittingly join a largely 'dead' FS and remain there until either giving up on the idea of FSs entirely (bearing in mind that many mobile games nowadays 'auto-match' new players with unsuitable or even 'dead' in-game groups, so this is something many players might even expect), or until leaving the game in disappointment after being apparently ignored by Fellows who are, in fact, no longer even playing. Even being matched with a FS which, although at least composed of 'live' players, is not suitable in terms of level of activity, in-game advancement, degree of participation in group activities, and so on, would be at best a demotivating experience, and at worst, again, a reason to leave the game - not least because I would logically consider, having been poorly matched once, that I would quite probably be equally poorly 'auto-matched' again.

I personally find 'auto-matching' of players with in-game groups, in any game, to be not only usually inefficient, but also a rather patronising affair; most players are surely capable of checking FS Descriptions/Members and deciding for themselves where best to apply? A far better idea, I think, would be to introduce into the existing Tutorial a useful level of explanation of Fellowships (in all their complexity, since they are one of the foundations of the game, after all). In my opinion, even the current system of encouraging players to join FSs manually is not only hit-and-miss, since it relies upon players investigating the UI (which many don't, before they get bored and leave) in order to seek out the information on 'Benefits of FSs' which is currently provided in-game, but which is inadequate in terms of explaining in proper detail the benefits of FSs of various types - from casual to hardcore.

I don't know whether the mobile client allows the same flexibility as the browser version in terms of ignoring the 'auto-suggested' FSs and instead listing all FSs on the Server and choosing likely candidates according to FS Descriptions/Member City levels, etc. (although how to do this is not explained in-game, which I consider to be a significant omission, hence my idea above about introducing 'Joining a FS' into the compulsory Tutorial), but it does seem apparent, at least, that the 'auto-suggest' feature needs a lot of work if it is to be useful either to mobile or to browser-based players.
 

Deleted User - 341074

Guest
For example, from the analyses that we have been running, we can't see that players with more premium expansions now perform worse than players with fewer premium expansions. On the contrary, these players continue to perform significantly better than comparable players.
This shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what the real complaint is.
"Players with expansions and wonders are doing better than those without."
Yeah, obviously.

The problem is that players have peaked. I don't care how many other players are/were doing more or less than I am/was.

I care that I will do worse tomorrow than I will do today.

E.G.
I just entered chapter 16, and what do I get if I complete the whole chapter? Some Armory and Training grounds upgrades?
For that My SS increases by 13%?!
Yeah.... no thanks. There is just no possible way that upgrading my Training Grounds will offset that 13% jump in losses in both the spire and tournament.

So instead I will sit here and upgrade my military wonders I guess? Hoping that maxing those out will offset the +100% squad size increase they will give me.?

I'm sitting a couple of expansions that I have earned but not placed because they will hurt me more than help me. How sad is that?
 

OldHag

Necromancer
Lukas says (about the tournaments):

In addition, we continue to monitor players at the top end of the spectrum to ensure that costs are not disproportionately high at a certain point. However, since the number of players in this area is quite small, it takes a little longer to have any meaningful results to our analyses there.

Well of course the number of players in the 'top end' is quite small............haven't they been monitoring the number of those 'top end' players whom have quit?
Wouldn't you agree that you're clearly doing something wrong, when so many of your long time, top end players just quit, unless of course (as so many have mentioned), that was your intent.

Just saying.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
However, progress in the game - in any form - should still be worthwhile and improve the tournament success. We are convinced that we are much closer to this goal with the new system than with the old system, which determined the squad size solely based on squad size research. In this old system, the top rankings were only distributed based on the available provinces a player had.

So this quote from Inno is what upsets everybody? I don´t know why you are upset, that is 100% exactly what I would say if I was Inno and had to sell the new tourney.
Of course this is nonsense and of course they know it, but they have to sell it so that is what they do...

You pick out biased data to construct a case that shows what you want to show. You may have heard: "Never trust a statistics you haven´t faked yourself"? There you go that is how you use it. They are not even lying when they say it. If you compare a chapter 17 town with a chapter 1 town you can clearly see who is better, there you go you have proof that progress is good for you!
You just don´t do the comparison between a chapter 17 town with all expansions and all AWs at 30 to a chapter 15 towns with only military AWs and minimum expansions. If you did that comparison you would have to lie about progress being good, so you simply don´t do it :) Well at least not publicly, of course they do it internally, they know, but they do not intend to fix it. I assume the problem is not big enough to warrant the major investment of fixing the tourneys. They know exactly how many people leave and how many join and how much money they make from it. If they thought the investment would make them money they would change the tourneys tomorrow, but they don´t.
 

Far Reach

Conjurer
So this quote from Inno is what upsets everybody? I don´t know why you are upset, that is 100% exactly what I would say if I was Inno and had to sell the new tourney.
Of course this is nonsense and of course they know it, but they have to sell it so that is what they do...

My guess is that Inno are treating Elvenar like a single player game (with the tournament as a mini-game), and have generated the formula that way. They've assumed that everyone will continue to progress their cities (in an "average way"), and want to give all an individual tournament challenge regardless of how advanced we are. Unfortunately this doesn't work well when players compete (with the tournament as a priority) and build cities accordingly.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
My guess is that Inno are treating Elvenar like a single player game (with the tournament as a mini-game), and have generated the formula that way. They've assumed that everyone will continue to progress their cities (in an "average way"), and want to give all an individual tournament challenge regardless of how advanced we are. Unfortunately this doesn't work well when players compete (with the tournament as a priority) and build cities accordingly.
True and I guess they don´t care much about the few that do as long as it doesn´t become a common thing. And as a percentage of the total number of players it never will...
 

Deleted User - 341074

Guest
My guess is that Inno are treating Elvenar like a single player game (with the tournament as a mini-game), and have generated the formula that way.
That doesn't make sense to me.
I play the tournaments as if they were single player. Almost the whole game really, with some co-op mixed in.

I couldn't care less about how others do in the tournament compared to me.
The formula is messed up because "progress" makes me do worse than me.
 

Far Reach

Conjurer
That doesn't make sense to me.
I play the tournaments as if they were single player. Almost the whole game really, with some co-op mixed in.

I couldn't care less about how others do in the tournament compared to me.
The formula is messed up because "progress" makes me do worse than me.

Could you expand a little on how "progress" makes things worse for you specifically please ? (I can see 4 cities with your name on the US servers and 1 on beta, and it isn't clear to me which you are referring to). For an "average" city it seems to me that the benefits of building upgrades tend to offset the cost of tech increases, and military wonder levels those of non-military Wonders. I agree that past a certain point this breaks down (e.g. once one has sufficient expansions, and has maxed out certain key military wonders) but wasn't aware that those cities of yours which I looked at would be much affected.)
 

Pauly7

Magus
Could you expand a little on how "progress" makes things worse for you specifically please ? (I can see 4 cities with your name on the US servers and 1 on beta, and it isn't clear to me which you are referring to). For an "average" city it seems to me that the benefits of building upgrades tend to offset the cost of tech increases, and military wonder levels those of non-military Wonders. I agree that past a certain point this breaks down (e.g. once one has sufficient expansions, and has maxed out certain key military wonders) but wasn't aware that those cities of yours which I looked at would be much affected.)
This is possibly true, but there shouldn't be anyone who is put in a position where progress becomes a detriment to their game.
 

Deleted User - 341074

Guest
Could you expand a little on how "progress" makes things worse for you specifically please ? (I can see 4 cities with your name on the US servers and 1 on beta, and it isn't clear to me which you are referring to)
My main US cities& Beta (that is all the ones with this name) are all just past the line into chapter 16.
Beta city after I stop being lazy and place my Goblin gift shops: https://www.elvenarchitect.com/city/planner/3793637fe40e4920b159fededa12bb28/

The increase in tournament squad size (and therefore losses) from the first tech to the last tech in CH16 is 13%

This chapter unlocks upgrades for the Training grounds from level 24 to 28 which increases its production by 16.8%
I just checked my Beta city and the training grounds are responsible for 18.4% of my troop output with the rest coming from the barracks, Merc, wonders, evos, GoToS and Vallors.
So, that 16.8% bump on 18.4% of my production equals a 3% overall increase.

New levels of workshops and residences also unlock later in the chapter, but those have zero value since the Magic versions are already unlocked at the first tech.

That leaves Tier 2 buildings which can go up from 27 to 31. That gives a production increase of 48% but due to the 25% increase in size and 108% increase in population requirements they actually produce fewer goods per square than at level 27.

By moving "forwards" to the end of chapter 16 my tournament capacity will decrease by about 10%.

Now if I made it that far clearly it would make sense to pop into the next chapter to unlock upgrades for my event buildings and craftables which (assuming I had enough RR spells) would increase their output by about 10%. Those buildings make up around 20% of my production so a 2% overall bump.

Moving from the very end of chapter 16 one tech into 17 and spending 270 RR spells would increase my sustainable tournament ability by 2% But I'd still be down 8% from my current position at the start of CH 16

Next decision: should I go to the end of chapter 17? The techs this time would give a further 15% bump in squad size.

2 levels of the Merc camp get unlocked an increase of just over 11%, and since the Mercs account for just under 25% of my troop production that works out to 2.75% increased total output.

2 Barracks levels as well, also increasing by 11%. The barracks portion of my troop training is 22%, for 2.4%

2 levels of Training Grounds , also increasing by 11%. The TG portion of my troop training is 18.4%, for 2.0%

Then the T3 factories get a whopping 64% bump in production but again that's accompanied by a 112% increase in pop requirements and a 27% increase in size negating the production boost.

So, by moving "forwards" from the start of 17 to the end my tournament capacity would decrease by close to 8%.

TL;DR:
From the start of 16 to the end of 17 there's close to a 16% total decrease in sustainable tournament ability.

Edit:
I missed the Squad size techs for a 9% bump in AW troop production which account for 14.6% of my output for a further 1.26% increase in total output (total from the start of CH16 to the end of CH17)

From the start of 16 to the end of 17 there's close to a 14.5% total decrease in sustainable tournament ability including the edit above.
 
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Pauly7

Magus
Not wishing to put you to any extra work Soggy (or anyone), but do you have any data as to the viability of completing the final 8 mandatory techs of chapter 15 (9 if unlocking the Senate is required to be in chapter 16)?

I suppose it may depend on how much production comes from event buildings. In my case quite a big proportion of T2 and T3 production comes from my productions sets.

So far I've played chapter 15 in two phases. Firstly I just went far enough to unlock the frog prince and then stopped. More recently I rebuilt my Council Hall so that I could press on and unlock the chapter level T1 manus in order to be more FA effective. It strikes me that I'm fairly close to the end of chapter 15 at this point.
 

Far Reach

Conjurer
It may be worth mentioning that (subject to correction by Soggy) that the analysis above misses out some benefits of progression.

Firstly in Chapter 17 we get 2 levels to the Training Grounds (as well as the Barracks and Merc Camp).
Second in both Chapter 16 and 17 we get a number of Squad Size Size Upgrades. Those increase troops from (I believe) all sources other than TG, MC and Barracks.

Taken together my guess is that the overall troop increase in C17 almost matches the tech penalty.

Separately of course we get other benefits, such as a significantly larger coin and supply capacity and production, extra expansions and new Wonders. I'd certainly accept that these don't much help with the tournament score, but they do help in other ways.
 

Deleted User - 341074

Guest
Firstly in Chapter 17 we get 2 levels to the Training Grounds (as well as the Barracks and Merc Camp).
oops, missed that, I'll adjust my post above. (done)
Second in both Chapter 16 and 17 we get a number of Squad Size Size Upgrades. Those increase troops from (I believe) all sources other than TG, MC and Barracks.
Just the wonders(FA,toads, BW, SSS), but I'll factor that in
Taken together my guess is that the overall troop increase in C17 almost matches the tech penalty.
Nah, I updated the post above, still a 14.x% downgrade
new Wonders.
Even if the levels put into the CH16&17 wonders didn't count against you (and they do) I'd never even consider wasting the space on them- they go right beside the Thrones in my wonder list.:(
 
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Far Reach

Conjurer
OK thanks for the corrections.

What I meant in the context of C17 was that the tech penalty (which you give above as 15%) would be mostly counteracted by the boosts to the production of all troops (whether by building upgrades or squad size techs). This may be a guide to what we should expect in future chapters. From your figures it looks like around a 5 to 6% penalty per chapter when comparing troop boosts to increased squad size cost. (I'm comparing here between the ends of consecutive chapters.)

Relative to other formula effects (such as Wonders) this seems pretty small to me, but it does bear out your original point.
 
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Deleted User - 341074

Guest
From your figures it looks like 7% penalty per chapter when comparing troop boosts to increased squad size cost.
Relative to other formula effects (such as Wonders) this seems pretty small to me, but it does bear out your original point.
Under the old system (skipping optional SS techs) I would have added 6% to my tournament ability.
That's at least a reward for putting the time and effort into completing 2 chapters.

Progress not being a positive is a terrible design.
In another game, if I earned a sword that increased my damage by 13.5% but also increased the hitpoints of all enemies by 28% I would not be happy.
 
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Deleted User - 341074

Guest
do you have any data as to the viability of completing the final 8 mandatory techs of chapter 15 (9 if unlocking the Senate is required to be in chapter 16)?
That's a tough call. Your city is a little too artistic to make any easy calculations, but I'd estimate a 3% increase in SS which would be at least partially offset by using RRs on all of your stuff.
 

Pauly7

Magus
That's a tough call. Your city is a little too artistic to make any easy calculations, but I'd estimate a 3% increase in SS which would be at least partially offset by using RRs on all of your stuff.
Thanks. Yeah my city isn't normal :)

I guess "partially offset" won't really cut the mustard for me, so there's no point putting myself through the pain of fighting my way through those last techs.

It takes me a while because I've never removed event buildings that I like (I still have Menhirok from spring 2017 for eg), but for the first time ever I find myself with every single culture building up to chapter level, so I don't even have further use for RR spells and blueprints.

So my one job left seems to be upgrading AWs and I think I'm down to 4 of those that there's a point to levelling up.
 
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