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Discussion News from Beta (may contain spoilers!)

Timneh

Artisan
I'd take a bet that InnoGames' management, who are responsible for this change (not the developers, even though they tend to get the blame) are expecting you either to leave, or to adapt.

I think the game designers are heavily involved and share the blame as well.
 

Verde

Soothsayer
What on Earth do you think I will do in this game???
There is, very sadly, probably an alternative ... ditch the Spire and tourney (except for minimal event requirements) and play only the city building aspect ... buy expansions or not as desired, upgrade Wonders happily (although likely not the fighting oriented ones).
Such an approach removes a lot of the fellowship aspect of the game, although there's still trading and of course the so very rewarding Fellowship Adventures to consider.
Hard to see where the game is heading with the current tourney changes but Laurelin may unfortunately have the right of it.
 

Piglets For All

Soothsayer
As one of those people who play in Beta, unless changes are implemented and soon then people will leave. We already have one of our FS members on his last few days who will trash his city on the way out of the door unless something gets better and I totally understand that.

While those people who are in the lower chapters can suddenly do more than before they will reach a point when its unachievable unless they're going to sit with thousands of kp in instants in their summonings and not place them in AWs.

I am one of those many people who had a wishing well farm and stopped moving on the tree for 100 days while waiting for them to expire, all those kp went into AWs. I am in ch15, the demand on orcs is heavy already but facing just ONE tournament province which requires 5.3k when I only have 55k in stock is too much. This tournament I got just over 3k points, I did provinces 1-9 for 6 rounds, 10-12 for 5 rounds and provinces 13 and 14 for 2. A 3* on province 13 needs 2.8k planks, 5.6k orcs and 44k mana - no, not doing that. 1* for province 15 needs 28k marble, 21k scrolls and 5.6k orcs.

I'm not a major high scorer, I got 4.6k in the last dust tournament, but doing so much less in this one for a higher cost is wrong. I have no fire phoenix, no dwarven armour, just me and my troops (plus some AWs) and my tournament has dropped by 31% of the previous dust. I'm struggling to kill masses of troops and so thought to switch to catering, with costs as above I had to stop. Is 5kp or 6kp a good enough prize for wiping out my city growth? Do we have to decide now which thing we will do this week? As long as it doesn't involve putting kp on AW of course.
 

hawk the slayer

Spellcaster
So, having read a good deal of whats been said here just to be clear:
growing a more powerful city is now gonna hurt me, getting my AW's up as high as I have is now gonna hurt me, buying ( yes - real money ) some premium expansions is now gonna hurt me. I've spent real money on this game because I've enjoyed playing it and have no problem bunging the odd £20.00 at it to help support the game, but now I'm gonna be punnished for it??? are they serious??
 

Pauly7

Magus
growing a more powerful city is now gonna hurt me, getting my AW's up as high as I have is now gonna hurt me, buying ( yes - real money ) some premium expansions is now gonna hurt me
The party line is that the increase in difficulty for each extra AW level and expansion will not be as great as your increase in power that comes from those upgrades. However, anyone reading that sentence can see how flawed the logic is... except Inno developers, apparently.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
This goes against 'traditional' gaming wisdom, of course, but Elvenar is now a primarily mobile game (by design, not by accident), and the rules are different in the world of mobile gaming. A large volume of small, short-term revenues from undemanding, uncritical 'revolving-door' players almost always earns more in total than a handful of larger/longer-term revenues from more demanding, more savvy long-term players, where mobile gaming is concerned. Shiny graphics earn money. Complex strategies do not. That's just mobile gaming, in a nutshell. It's a great shame that it's become so much more profitable, by and large, than any other kind of gaming, these days.

I'd take a bet that InnoGames' management, who are responsible for this change (not the developers, even though they tend to get the blame) are expecting you either to leave, or to adapt. I wish I could say anything else, once again, except 'very, very sad - but true'... :(

Well I think most things point towards this being the likely explanation. I really have a hard time estimating where the bulk of the money comes from... Best example would be the stupid repetitive events. They are completely uninteresting for advanced players, but make money through all the newbies.

The one thing that always keeps me thinking they do care a little is that they still keep making new chapters (even if they are completely useless from a gameplay perspective). Why invest tons of resources if you want the big ones to leave? New chapters are a huge investment with all the new coding and then the tons of new graphics needed... It somehow must pay off.

But as to what to do in the future. I guess hard to say... For me the only interest left in this game are the team events, so I won´t care much about not playing any more chapters or not placing more expansions. Upgrading AWs is kind of my hobby, but I guess I can stop that too. Only well then I´m not really doing much anymore at all. Good for spending more time on other things I guess.
 

Piglets For All

Soothsayer
It seems to me that whenever Inno gives us something with one hand it takes away twice as much with the other hand.

There was no point reducing tournaments to one province to reduce the clicks when we won't be able to go very far anyway and so reduce the clicking that way.

They tell us that the catering goods requirement has been significantly reduced (see they gave us something there) but omitted to say that instead we'll be paying exorbitant costs in gold, supplies, orcs and mana (and here they took away any expectation of success).

Why allow people to be able to have more than one fire phoenix, more than one brown bear, lots of AW levels because of the former which were mostly likely paid for in cold hard cash if then you take away any benefit they may give?

I agree with both @Laurelin and @Gargon667 , those who have been playing for a long time are obviously not producing enough money for Inno which is a business after all, but all those new people who love the events and want to spend money are ripe for the picking, so let's make tournaments better for them. At some point those small players will reach the point where tournaments are no longer rewarding, where the promise of chests 11 onwards are completely unattainable, but it won't matter because there will be new people coming along behind.
 

Hekata

Artisan
They could still have made the tournaments easier for them without nerfing it so much for those who have been playing for years. Maybe the veterans are not as profitable as they used to be but why not take that money too? I get that catering to new (mobile) players with lots of events and new shiny buildings can be their priority but how do hardcore players' tourney results factor into that?
 

Gargon667

Mentor
They could still have made the tournaments easier for them without nerfing it so much for those who have been playing for years. Maybe the veterans are not as profitable as they used to be but why not take that money too? I get that catering to new (mobile) players with lots of events and new shiny buildings can be their priority but how do hardcore players' tourney results factor into that?

good point.

Only thing I can come up with is that this is standard behaviour in Inno. Instead of balancing something carefully they run with it without changing it until it becomes too big of a problem and then smash it to pieces...
 

Hekata

Artisan
good point.

Only thing I can come up with is that this is standard behaviour in Inno. Instead of balancing something carefully they run with it without changing it until it becomes too big of a problem and then smash it to pieces...
We've seen that too many times sadly.

I have a question for those who understand the new changes better than me.
If I got it correct the difficulty of the tournament (actually the SS but that also adds to the difficulty) depends on mainly 3 things: our progress through the tech tree, our wonder levels and the number of expansions we have (premium included). Doesn't this mean we will be penalised for the same thing twice? We open a tech for an expansion - they increase our squad size, then we place that expansion in the city and they add to our squad size again? Twice the penalty for the same thing. Same with wonders, they are not even optional in the tech tree, we unlock the tech it adds to our SS and we build the wonder and it adds to our SS again, and then with each level even more.
And why do all tech count? Some have 0 benefits for our city, like all the guest races techs that not only don't help but actually hinder us as they take up a lot of space that could be used for more useful things. Plus in higher chapters we get 2 techs for something that was covered by 1 tech in lower chapters like residence/WS/MH upgrades.
 

Pauly7

Magus
I have a question for those who understand the new changes better than me.
If I got it correct the difficulty of the tournament (actually the SS but that also adds to the difficulty) depends on mainly 3 things: our progress through the tech tree, our wonder levels and the number of expansions we have (premium included). Doesn't this mean we will be penalised for the same thing twice? We open a tech for an expansion - they increase our squad size, then we place that expansion in the city and they add to our squad size again? Twice the penalty for the same thing. Same with wonders, they are not even optional in the tech tree, we unlock the tech it adds to our SS and we build the wonder and it adds to our SS again, and then with each level even more.
And why do all tech count? Some have 0 benefits for our city, like all the guest races techs that not only don't help but actually hinder us as they take up a lot of space that could be used for more useful things. Plus in higher chapters we get 2 techs for something that was covered by 1 tech in lower chapters like residence/WS/MH upgrades.
I think that all the things you are assume are right, as it currently stands. The formula is fairly nonsensical. Just trying to keep faith that they're still working on it.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
We've seen that too many times sadly.

I have a question for those who understand the new changes better than me.
If I got it correct the difficulty of the tournament (actually the SS but that also adds to the difficulty) depends on mainly 3 things: our progress through the tech tree, our wonder levels and the number of expansions we have (premium included). Doesn't this mean we will be penalised for the same thing twice? We open a tech for an expansion - they increase our squad size, then we place that expansion in the city and they add to our squad size again? Twice the penalty for the same thing. Same with wonders, they are not even optional in the tech tree, we unlock the tech it adds to our SS and we build the wonder and it adds to our SS again, and then with each level even more.
And why do all tech count? Some have 0 benefits for our city, like all the guest races techs that not only don't help but actually hinder us as they take up a lot of space that could be used for more useful things. Plus in higher chapters we get 2 techs for something that was covered by 1 tech in lower chapters like residence/WS/MH upgrades.

Yes exactly. One thing i do not quite remember is if optional techs count, when activated or not. I think not (but I would not bet my life on it), so the optional expansion tech would not count, only the expansion itself once you place it. And obligatory expansion as you say will punish you twice if you place it (which in itself of course is optional, it doesn´t do anything if you leave it sitting in the inventory). And in reality it will punish you more than that, because both punishments are multiplied with each other. Actually all 3 effects multiply so how bad it really gets always depends on what else you have already done. An extra expansion hurts you more if you have lots of AW levels etc, an AW level is much worse for a chapter 16 city (with all its techs and expansions) than a chapter 6 city.
 

Hekata

Artisan
And in reality it will punish you more than that, because both punishments are multiplied with each other.
They multiply with each other? I .... I won't even try to understand the logic behind it.
I'm really trying not to be upset about those tourney changes and just think of alternative ways to compensate for what I will probably be loosing but everything I can think of seems to come with a penalty and not just a minor one.
It really sucks the fun out of the game if instead of enjoying growing your wonders you are thinking which one you could delete. Or if you don't want to move from the spot you're in because it will only get much harder :confused:

@Pauly7 I think you used the perfect word: "nonsensical". That's exactly how all these changes feel to me.
 
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DeletedUser7526

Guest
I think not (but I would not bet my life on it),
The coefficient fitting is nearly perfect. And exact SS sizes can be calculated to 2% accuracy with the current curve fitting.

And yes, 333 aw levels double your base ss. And one tech completed by 0.42%. So just doing chapter 16, would increase my SS size in spire + tourney by roughly 10%+

in other words, if I send 3000 troops, to spire first battle (or tourney henceforth) , chapter 16 teching will make me send 3300 troops. And a net loss of 20% auto battling costs more just because I did chapter 16 which has no military offsets of interest for me.

i have tested the formula by stagnating city and changing individual parameters each week. And I’d say the current formula is the best we can get our hands on and strategise.

 

Gargon667

Mentor
@JollyElf: Having faith in a company is never a good idea (well other than that their goal is earning money). So not much lost there, but being along for the ride while it is fun is exactly what we all should aim for :) The only question is: how long is it fun for? We shall see...
 

Killiak

Artisan
From what I can gather on the Beta forum, it seems Inno is happy enough with the changes they made.

Despite, of course, the enormous amount of feedback from Beta players who have clearly, and mathematically, shown that the change is disproportionately punishing for end-game players. Among that group, especially those who have many (premium) expansions and/or have many high level AW's.

I would advice all Archmages to inform and prepare their fellowships, and to try and keep their end-game level players in the game. I think this change will actually cause people to quit for real this time. It's a HUGE nerf.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
|Lets just hope they will make some big changes,
Indeed many (paying) players will leave if this change is going trough.

I have spoken with several players who sponsor elvenar with a decent amount of money, one of there main reason as endgamer to stick are the tournaments which seems to be getting butchered.
these people need the tournaments (some even pour RL in the tournaments by buying recipes at the crafting menu for more timeboosters so they can have more units for the tournament) to stick around till the next chapter, where then again they pour in money in the game to upgrade there too many magic buildings (not all can be done with blueprints for them) and buy expansions which are~ 80 pounds/euro's/dollars a piece.

I do not see the point in butchering these players to the point where they will quit the game.
So I hope they will see this point in time and make proper adjustments accordingly.

ps. I saw some german players claiming they were muffled by the mods on there server and were told to stop spreading lies as each expansion and wonderlevel would grant more than they cost.
It's good to see we have better moderators here. as this point has been completely disproven by facts. It might have been there intention, but there is a difference between intension and facts.
 

Pauly7

Magus
From what I can gather on the Beta forum, it seems Inno is happy enough with the changes they made.
There's different ways to look at it. On the one hand Marindor sometimes gives the impression that the devs are not going to do any more with this than a bit of fine tuning. There was one particularly riling comment that suggested that the majority of players are very happy with the changes and that there's no need to change much. When asked how they would assume that he said that it was from in-game surveys, blah blah.

On the other hand, they have asked for feedback and they now have almost a hundred pages of it, which is about 99% negative. People have threatened to leave. Some people have already left. They claim to take all the feedback on board and the thing that gives me some hope is that they haven't yet moved it to Live servers. That means they must be working on something. What, I'm not sure. It's been very quiet for a while. Each Tuesday we hope that they will announce some big changes. We will see tomorrow.

Let's just hope that retaining customers is important to them. If they are willing to sacrifice a good part of their existing players base and hope to replace them with the same number of new paying customers, then that would become the big worry.
 
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