Discussion News from Beta (may contain spoilers!)

[CrazyWizard]

Do not agree with this statement... Can you tell me please, how many smaller players will be able to do all maps all 6 weeks in a row? It is easy to do when you have fully evolved phoenix, otherwise it means you must pay with diamonds. And even then considering how odds ''play out'' in this game, I would not expect to get a full set even if I do all maps over this period of time. Example, Magic Workshop - it is there as a reward, but it is extremely rare reward. Deliberate design decision?

It might look nice from advanced player's perspective, at lower chapters there are other challenges now. I would argue that changes to this game made things difficult for all players. Why not to make them even more difficult with the spire? Just to give an example, with new format of tournaments it takes ages to collect relics for a full boost to produce goods and troops are so weak, that it does not worth using them from the middle of the spire probably.

I have updated my post I promised to make a long time ago,
I have added an example of how to solve the puzzle here:

https://en.forum.elvenar.com/index....ow-it-works-and-why-its-good.12707/post-74940

 

[Sir Derf]

• For players in Chapters 3 to 5, we are exchanging the Portal Profit 10% Instants with Supply Windfall 50% Instants, as Portal Profit only becomes useful from Chapter 6 on. The same change is applied for Portal Profits 15%, 25%, and 50%, to be replaced with Supply Windfall 100%.

It's also a really negative change for anyone in chapters 3-5. This is exactly the time people want PPs, but they no longer get them.

@Pauly7, I think I agree with INNO on this. While yes, being able to enter Chapter 6 with some PPs already in hand could be useful, but I would think things that could have immediate benefit through Chapters 3-5 would be more helpful.

 

[CrazyWizard]

Not true, unless player has large amount of manufactories, run them on short cycles, uses MM spells and does not use goods for any other tasks and/or design city to play specifically spire.

My city is in the chapter 4 atm, developed in a normal way, so for me all maps in the spire are out of sight I am not sure to which cohort of players phoenix evolves are inteded, certainly not for players at my size.

goods like orcs, mana, seeds, sentient goods that you need in the spire in later chapters are much harder to create and collect than coins, supplies, and regular goods
This makes the lower chapters relatively easier, as it's much easier to aquire these goods cpmpared to the later chapter goods.

 

[DeletedUser10688]

Apologies, but I am beginning to lose my patience to prove my point...

Yes, having fewer options in the 'negotiations' is easier... BUT... the amount of resources required escalates so quickly, that player is losing all goods before finishing the spire. It would be similar to request to offer mana with every negotiated encounter as soon as mana is introduced - it is impossible to scale up the production so quickly.

So in the early chapter 4 spire all maps are almost impossible without going to extremes or spending decent amount of diamonds. In early chapters better to use goods for other causes. Seriously... do not mislead smaller players, because it is not so easy as you put it Every chapter has its ''challenges''.

Finally, who will guarantee that it will not be like with other 'odds'. e.g. 100 attempts without success?

In terms of PPs, 100% support. There is no need for this spell in early chapters. It would be better to introduce the spell which gives random goods instead.

 

[C-Nymph]

Are you sure? Doesn't
A player who is asked for coins, supplies, steel, marble, or planks have an easier puzzle than
A player who is asked for coins, supplies, steel, marble, or planks, or mana, or orcs.

As for planning and designing a city to do well in the spire (or tournament or chapter progress or events) that applies to all cities at all levels.

The spire is available as of chapter 3. Chapter 3 allows tier 2 to be built. So you can still have 8 options to choose from (coins-supplies-marble-steel-planks-crystal-scrolls-silk), just like higher level players. I actually find the spire much (MUCH) easier to do as a higher level player than as a lower level player (I have a city in chapter 4 as well as chapter 17). Especially as I am able to fight my way through instead of having to use diplomacy, my small city isn't strong enough to fight beyond the 1st boss and that's a big disadvantage in terms of 'losses'. I'd rather lose troops than diamonds.

Also, I have to agree with @Lady Silvermist on the fact that you just can't create enough goods to match the demand of the spire. Not only goods, but also coins/supplies. If it were goods, that would not be a problem, as I am luckily in a very friendly fellowship who accept my terrible trades so that I can at least get a little further. However, I am ALWAYS low on supplies and coins and always end up having to use supply windfall and coin rains during the spire to keep up with the demand. So much so, that keeping enough of those instants is also becoming a challenge!

Really, I advice you all to start a new city and experience for yourselves how "easy" it is as a lower level player, I'm sure you'll soon agree that this is in fact not true.

 

[Deleted User - 341074]

Really, I advice you all to start a new city and experience for yourselves how "easy" it is as a lower level player, I'm sure you'll soon agree that this is in fact not true.

Yeah, I suppose I just know too many low chapter players (including my wife's alternate accounts) who aren't having problems.
I also find in my fellowships that even those players who are not quite geared for it are easily fed goods from bigger players in the fellowships (except supplies and coins of course)

Maybe I will add some more test accounts again... the problem is that they are only good for a few months even on solo play before they blow past the tutorial chapters.

 

[Alcaro]

Yeah, I suppose I just know too many low chapter players (including my wife's alternate accounts) who aren't having problems.
I also find in my fellowships that even those players who are not quite geared for it are easily fed goods from bigger players in the fellowships (except supplies and coins of course)

Maybe I will add some more test accounts again... the problem is that they are only good for a couple of months even on solo play before they blow past the tutorial chapters.

But what if you are in a "young" FS where you can't get 0* trades, where all your fellows are new(er) cities?
What if you are in a good FS, where you can get enough trades from the big guys but nobody can help you with coins and tools especially?

About the Spire ... Was better to fix the Moonstone library, to give, for example, instead of forever and for everyone scrolls, your boosted T2, or T2+1, or T2-1. The market would regulate eventually and scrolls producers wouldn't be screwed up. The library is good, I rely on it to get CCs, since I'm followed by bad luck and rarely get some CC in Spire and also can't produce CCs around the clock, I have to produce also MMs.
I do not need Phoenix artifacts in my main city but in one of the littlest I still need 2 artifacts to bring the Fire bird to 10th stage. It seems it's hard to bring a new thing from which everyone benefits. As far as I can see it, this change is detrimental (again) to players on last chapters.

 

[CrazyWizard]

Apologies, but I am beginning to lose my patience to prove my point...

Yes, having fewer options in the 'negotiations' is easier... BUT... the amount of resources required escalates so quickly, that player is losing all goods before finishing the spire. It would be similar to request to offer mana with every negotiated encounter as soon as mana is introduced - it is impossible to scale up the production so quickly.

So in the early chapter 4 spire all maps are almost impossible without going to extremes or spending decent amount of diamonds. In early chapters better to use goods for other causes. Seriously... do not mislead smaller players, because it is not so easy as you put it Every chapter has its ''challenges''.

Finally, who will guarantee that it will not be like with other 'odds'. e.g. 100 attempts without success?

In terms of PPs, 100% support. There is no need for this spell in early chapters. It would be better to introduce the spell which gives random goods instead.

Off course it takes time and effort to accomodate the spire to your city, it's part of the adaptation process, if you want to negotiate yourself to the top you need build towards it and that is not something that you can do in a week.

btw for goods in many fellowships larger players are willing to help a bit to smaller players helping them a lot, 10K goods is little for them and huge for you.
The point we wanted to make is not that it's easy, but that it takes more effort for city's further in the tech tree to adjust themselves to the spire as more rare goods are required that are in high demand on every other place in the game making convincing in the spire much more difficult then in the lower chapters, and for many of those goods noboday can help you out in a pinch unlike regular goods.
"regular goods" are fairly easy to aquire compared to for example orks which are a nightmare (unless you can find the room for 12+ armouries)

The main issue for a "new" player is that they are not used to an optimised game, they are still learning which increases the difficulty, but thats where help from experienced players come into play, as long as players are willing to listen they can improve there game a lot in a very short time..

We have both the exprience and cities in all kind of stages in the game, once you know how to optimise small cities in the spire are so easy it's almost a joke. but thats with the insight of an experienced player who knows how to avoid all pitfalls.

 

[Deleted User - 341074]

But what if you are in a "young" FS where you can't get 0* trades, where all your fellows are new(er) cities?

Then they have something to work towards as a team.
I don't think new players & fellowships are expecting to beat the game in the first few weeks, are they?

The main issue for a "new" player is that they are not used to an optimised game, they are still learning which increases the difficulty, but thats where help from experienced players come into play, as long as players are willing to listen they can improve there game a lot in a very short time..

We have both the exprience and cities in all kind of stages in the game, once you know how to optimise small cities in the spire are so easy it's almost a joke. but thats with the insight of an experienced player who knows how to avoid all pitfalls.

Exactly this. It's kinda impossible for an experienced player (especially a number cruncher) to turn off their knowledge and experience the game again and again as a newbie.

 

[CrazyWizard]

Then they have something to work towards as a team.
I don't think new players & fellowships are expecting to beat the game in the first few weeks, are they?

Exactly this. It's kinda impossible for an experienced player (especially a number cruncher) to turn off their knowledge and experience the game again and again as a newbie.

This might be a great catalist for many fellowships to really try the spire, and with trying comes some success that might hook them.
We often see that people see spire as "useless" untill the fellowship rewards come into play.

Once they try they get and hear others win magical buildings and they find a small sack of diamonds at the end of the spire falling into there lap.
ofter you need a catalist to set of a rolling boulder down the hill. once it moves it keeps moving,

This update surely will het a decent amount of fellowships on a path to a better spire result together. even if it's not "that many" as long as you find excuses to get people motivated thay boulder will start rolling at more and more locations.

Remember the tournaments? it took nearly 2 years before there was a serious amount of fellowships playing it successfully, 2 years long it was ignored with only a handfull of fellowships reaching a blueprint at most, then the restoration spell was introduced and look what happened.
A lot more than 2-5 fellowships a server play the tournaments now. and because of that more people noticed that the tournaments are lot more than "just a blueprint" once you get past province 9. thats where the fun begins.

This change depending on how the move forward might create the same effect, once you offer (rotating) prizes that people might actually like, it might be the push they need to actually try it seriously, which might result in rewards they did not imagine which is a catalist for succes.

 

[BlueBlou]

I am happy that chapter 3 - 5 cities won’t get PP’s anymore. Supply windfalls are a far more useful item at that level and many times I have wished for this.

 

[Pauly7]

Do not agree with this statement... Can you tell me please, how many smaller players will be able to do all maps all 6 weeks in a row?

First of all, my statement that you quoted said if players complete the Spire in all 6 weeks.

It is easy to do when you have fully evolved phoenix, otherwise it means you must pay with diamonds.

I have a fully evolved Fire Phoenix in my main city, but I never fight in the Spire, and it doesn't cost diamonds. Technically I will use 25 diamonds to get an extra guess on the top boss, and sometimes another 25 diamonds when there are 7 options to choose from, but never as many as I've already won.

And even then considering how odds ''play out'' in this game, I would not expect to get a full set even if I do all maps over this period of time.

It's a lottery, of course, but there are plenty of places where the artefact can be won and at least one of them is a 30% shot, I believe. The odds look better than the odds of winning DAs have been. You also need the mystery chests to appear, but I think we should average at least an artefact per week on a full spire run and with a bit of fortune, yeah, I bet a lot of people will get 9.

Example, Magic Workshop - it is there as a reward, but it is extremely rare reward. Deliberate design decision?

With the Magic Workshop you have one 5% shot per week. The odds of winning an artefact will be better by many times over.

It might look nice from advanced player's perspective , at lower chapters there are other challenges now.

I don't think any of this looks nice from an advanced player's perspective. A lot of the 'advanced' players already have fully evolved Phoenixes and so the rewards could be useless.

The Spire is not easier for an advanced player. It is easier if your city is set up right for it. I have a city that has recently entered chapter 3. In the first week when the Spire unlocked I went all the way to the top, only negotiating and without spending any diamonds. What's more, I hardly noticed a dent in my resources. Even at the top each spirit was asking for less than 100 goods a time. In my most advanced city it is also fairly easy as I have big stockpiles of regular goods and have the ability to produce coins and supplies quickly. In my city in the Woodelves chapter, however, it is fiercely difficult for me to make it through. It isn't all about how advanced your game is.

 

[DeletedUser10688]

Just to be clear, I am not new to this game. I had an advanced city and know very well how this game is functioning, except some latest changes. Spire was one of the features I liked (MA and library set were my favourite buildings, but library must be modified to function properly - only the part with goods) and my preference was to fight. In order to fight map 3, fully/almost fully evolved fire phoenix is a must. Now I am starting from zero with the intention not to get involved into extremes. In a way, I am comparing this game in terms of 'then' and 'now'. And I can tell you with the confidence, this game is not focusing on small players only, for them do stuff is as challenging as for advanced players.

My point is that in a current setting, chapter 4 is not designed to complete all maps. It's very well to say that early chapter players can do this and that, FS is a team, works like a team, wait for later chapters you will see how difficult it gets, etc... The reality is that completely new player is not in a position to know and to understand all strategies involved and how to overcome some challenges. It requires some time and experience/skill to understand how to play all maps and to do stuff in general. I remember as well, that I had few nightmare FS until I started to understand this game better. I am advocating for smaller players, as I read many comments suggesting that this game is focusing of newcomers, for smaller cities everything is so easy, they are benefiting most and so on. I looks like in reality some comments advanced players make are simply misleading.

As for my personal strategy nowadays, no fire phoenix, no way I attempt to do all maps in the spire on a weekly basis: does not matter in which chapter I am, I won't be forcing myself to do something I strongly dislike or don't have enough resources to do due to time constraints (say, no option to run shorther cycles in manufactories, to collect resources regularly) and with a small city it is not even possible due to multiple factors, low boosts, slow scalability of production, unwillingness to ask for 0 star trades as I am more than satisfied with my pace of growth and tournament scores, etc. The way I see possible changes to the spire from my small city and relaxed approach to this game: if moonstone library will be removed completely, i.e. without re-introducing modified set or any other similar set (equivalent, not inferior), the need for the fire phoenix disappears in my city. I can achieve a decent score in tournament without fire phoenix and without diverting/splashing resources on the spire, especially on disproportionately expensive map 3. With the players leaving this game at current rate, I do not see many FS doing maximum on both levels, spire and tournaments.

So I am returning to my original question: in which chapters players would likely to benefit from full set of evolves offered over period of few weeks? My understanding is at advanced chapters only (providing that player doesn't have fully evolved phoenix yet; not everybody is religiously playing this game and participating in all events ).

 

[CrazyWizard]

Just to be clear, I am not new to this game. I had an advanced city and know very well how this game is functioning, except some latest changes. Spire was one of the features I liked (MA and library set were my favourite buildings, but library must be modified to function properly - only the part with goods) and my preference was to fight. In order to fight map 3, fully/almost fully evolved fire phoenix is a must. Now I am starting from zero with the intention not to get involved into extremes. In a way, I am comparing this game in terms of 'then' and 'now'. And I can tell you with the confidence, this game is not focusing on small players only, for them do stuff is as challenging as for advanced players.

My point is that in a current setting, chapter 4 is not designed to complete all maps. It's very well to say that early chapter players can do this and that, FS is a team, works like a team, wait for later chapters you will see how difficult it gets, etc... The reality is that completely new player is not in a position to know and to understand all strategies involved and how to overcome some challenges. It requires some time and experience/skill to understand how to play all maps and to do stuff in general. I remember as well, that I had few nightmare FS until I started to understand this game better. I am advocating for smaller players, as I read many comments suggesting that this game is focusing of newcomers, for smaller cities everything is so easy, they are benefiting most and so on. I looks like in reality some comments advanced players make are simply misleading.

As for my personal strategy nowadays, no fire phoenix, no way I attempt to do all maps in the spire on a weekly basis: does not matter in which chapter I am, I won't be forcing myself to do something I strongly dislike or don't have enough resources to do due to time constraints (say, no option to run shorther cycles in manufactories, to collect resources regularly) and with a small city it is not even possible due to multiple factors, low boosts, slow scalability of production, unwillingness to ask for 0 star trades as I am more than satisfied with my pace of growth and tournament scores, etc. The way I see possible changes to the spire from my small city and relaxed approach to this game: if moonstone library will be removed completely, i.e. without re-introducing modified set or any other similar set (equivalent, not inferior), the need for the fire phoenix disappears in my city. I can achieve a decent score in tournament without fire phoenix and without diverting/splashing resources on the spire, especially on disproportionately expensive map 3. With the players leaving this game at current rate, I do not see many FS doing maximum on both levels, spire and tournaments.

So I am returning to my original question: in which chapters players would likely to benefit from full set of evolves offered over period of few weeks? My understanding is at advanced chapters only (providing that player doesn't have fully evolved phoenix yet; not everybody is religiously playing this game and participating in all events ).

It all stand or falls with 3 simple things

• where in the tournaments did you start your game
• how quickly did you pick up the tournaments
• how quickly fanatical are you racing trough the chapters.

It all stand or falls with how quickly you can get a decent relic bonus.
If no one tells/shows you in your ealy days the tournaments and you play it old style like back in the days you'll not be ready any time soon.
because just the world map won't churn out enough relics to give you a good enough goods production.

If you get lucky when you start the game and you enter the correct fellowship and they show you the tournaments and help you in your bonus weeks and you started at the right time in the cycle. and you are not as insane as me and do 3 chapters in the first week or so like when I started the game you'll be ready easily for the spire by the time you hit chapter 4.

 

[Killiak]

Seems Inno got wise to people building up entire Spire Sets, messing up the scrolls economy and easily grinding out enormous amounts of CC for the Mystical Object grind.
Took a while.

 

[DeletedUser10688]

It all stand or falls with 3 simple things

• where in the tournaments did you start your game
• how quickly did you pick up the tournaments
• how quickly fanatical are you racing trough the chapters.

It all stand or falls with how quickly you can get a decent relic bonus.
If no one tells/shows you in your ealy days the tournaments and you play it old style like back in the days you'll not be ready any time soon.
because just the world map won't churn out enough relics to give you a good enough goods production.

If you get lucky when you start the game and you enter the correct fellowship and they show you the tournaments and help you in your bonus weeks and you started at the right time in the cycle. and you are not as insane as me and do 3 chapters in the first week or so like when I started the game you'll be ready easily for the spire by the time you hit chapter 4.

I started tournaments from last crystal week probably, what means much needed boost for T1 was missed. But with all efforts, including crafting boosted relics, etc., 'improved' tournaments won't allow me to get maximum boost as quickly as it was possible earlier. I prefer not to over-scout provinces and in the current system I use time boosts to open up last star in tournament provinces (later I will scale down to five stars only as my nightime sleep is more important to me than Elvenar ). With all my calculations probably I will be well in guest races before I will reach maximum boost. I am maximising manufactories as soon as the research is done, have 8 units T1 manus and have nowhere enough resources, especially T1, to negotiate spire map 3. I would need to make trade offs severely slowing down the progress.

I have a feeling that spire will be 'improved' in the same way as tournaments. Removal of library will be just one of few 'improvements'. Most likely it will be like comparing original phoenixes with the current owl offered to new players - both are evolving birds with feeding effect but everything else is significantly different. Gathering artifacts for phoenixes probably will be again almost impossible, with enormous effort and time pressure as the last time (with the conversion event) - if you cannot win the lottery you will need loads of diamonds. There is a pattern how things are done here. I am not desperate to get few extra diamonds, if I don't need extra space for stuff consumed by playing map 3, I will be able to play even more relaxed game, completely forgetting about the spire map 3, scaling down the use of MA (probably will not be upgrading to the max level either which was next on my to do list, as tournaments became very poor source for relics to produce CCs, events with the award of 1 relic are laughable source, library set will be gone, what else to do with MA?). This is how I predict things happening

 

[Gargon667]

Seems Inno got wise to people building up entire Spire Sets, messing up the scrolls economy and easily grinding out enormous amounts of CC for the Mystical Object grind.
Took a while.

Well getting wise is the optimistic view, after they have been told for over a year now lol. But we´ll see what happens after the 6 weeks, I personally wouldn´t mind messing up the scrolls economy a bit more lol

 

[DeletedUser10688]

Getting wise you say?... Maybe next step will be removal of rows of identical evolving buildings producing decent amounts of goods and screwing up economy (you know, manufactories take up tons of pop/cult/space for regular players), or maybe removing multiple fire phoenixes and brown bears (instead of screwing up players who don't have these boosts), or maybe finally addressing longstanding issue with diamonds going to the account, instead of leaving them in the city where they were won/purchased (you know, it is screwing players who enjoy this game and playing one city only)..

I will repeat myself... Library can be easily modified to give random goods (T2, T3, etc - as it is now) and I do not mind players having few extra CCs, considering changes to the tournaments. This set requires lots of space and in my experience many players did not place everything they have in their city due to space constraints. Giving away only one evolving building per city and allowing newer players to get them and evolve those buildings as they play would make this game significantly fairer than just addressing library set...

 

[Silmaril]

OK guys, we have just created a whole new space on the Forum to house the Beta information. Rather than it being a never ending thread it now has space to begin anew in its own section in Central Place.

 

[Silmaril]

All previous comments have now been moved to this new space and the team will look to archive the older aspects of this thread over the coming weeks.