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Minor differences in the progress before Chapter VI.

Autumn Breeze

Adventurer
All I can say, is it must be a VERY long time since you have played a beginner city....
You are totally out of touch with the goods and troop levels required to try to push further out on the World Map to gain extra Relics...
There is no comparison between how easy it was for your baby cities from years ago, to how a new player faced with these changes today, would be....
I do NOT see how restricting the game further for beginners is in ANY way MINOR.... OR to their benefit... Just WHY would you do it????
 
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Sir Derf

Immortal
And I do NOT see how "restricting the game further for beginners" makes one "not being able to get anywhere." Nor do I see that beginners should be able to do everything and anything.

Yes, I recall how small and slow collecting resources is at the early stage. Yes, I recall that progress goes slow. My point wasn't that you have always available open possibilities to get whatever you want, at whatever quantity you want, at any time; rather, it was that you have possibilities to get some of what you want, at some quantities, at some times; in contrast to what I read as your position that you couldn't get anything, in any quantity, at any time. It's hard. It takes time. But it's there. You can do it. You can get it. Or maybe the better verb flavor is that you could get it.

Having said that, is it possible that the lower, slower development of resources and collection of inventory items for earlier, smaller cities possibly suggests that maybe they aren't suited to finish events or FAs? That maybe you should look to the future and consider that improving your city over time will improve your city's performance in events and FAs over time?
 

Autumn Breeze

Adventurer
They don't have either. They are just very worried about game changes that would severely reduce the capacity of starter cities to partake in Fellowship and game activities.
Thankyou Killiak...
This thread is here for discussion, and I have put forward my view as I am entitled to ...
I am standing up for players who don't yet realise what these changes mean...
Just wondering out of curiosity...
Just how many beginner players are testing this in beta? .... and how long do they intend to test this for?
I'll bet my bottom dollar it won't be for the amount of time it will take Live World players to get to Chapter 6....
 

Wibbly Woo

Spellcaster
These changes don’t feel like they are about beginning players at all.

The “move the spire to chapter 5” looks like a bandaid solution to the fact there were some very sweet spots in chapters 3 and 4 for dedicated spire cities to camp and not advance.

It is hardly a secret that some players are running second cities on other worlds in the same account to farm diamonds for their main city. By nerfing the dedicated low level diamond farmers, they hurt those cities in particular.
 

AsterObelix

Alchemist
These changes don’t feel like they are about beginning players at all.

The “move the spire to chapter 5” looks like a bandaid solution to the fact there were some very sweet spots in chapters 3 and 4 for dedicated spire cities to camp and not advance.

It is hardly a secret that some players are running second cities on other worlds in the same account to farm diamonds for their main city. By nerfing the dedicated low level diamond farmers, they hurt those cities in particular.

Hi Wibbly Woo.
I agree that those diamond farming cities are being hurt here. And I can understand if Inno want to solve that problem.
But isn't it a better solution then to stop the diamond sharing between cities ?
That would solve Inno's problem too (if that is there problem. I personally believe they just want to get more diamond purchases of frustrated players).
And in that case they wouldn't frustrate new players. Because with these changes they are just doing that.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
Do not forget that some chapters loose hundreds of required KP. and over the chapters sveral thousand.
People will reach the chapters much much faster.

It seems that most only see the chapter number without looking at the rest
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
These changes don’t feel like they are about beginning players at all.

The “move the spire to chapter 5” looks like a bandaid solution to the fact there were some very sweet spots in chapters 3 and 4 for dedicated spire cities to camp and not advance.

It is hardly a secret that some players are running second cities on other worlds in the same account to farm diamonds for their main city. By nerfing the dedicated low level diamond farmers, they hurt those cities in particular.
It looks they like to achieve a few things.

1 is to make the first few chapter more fast paced, and in this way retain more players, the second is to have a more gradual introduction and actual introduction to other spell elements. that way players arent overwhelmed with too many options the second they start.

It's all about player retention. as thats the way they earn money
 

Killiak

Artisan
It's all about player retention. as thats the way they earn money

I believe one of their reports stated that they receive about 50% of 'lifetime revenue' from a player within the first 6 months,roughly 70% after 12 months. Only 9% of players spend money.

As I said; if they think this is how they can improve that, then they will.
 

Herodite

Senior Forum Moderator
Elvenar Team
Hi Guys!

I see this is causing quite the conversation :D

As with all proposed changes going through the motions, these are subject to change! Nothing has been finalised as yet but keep those thoughts coming! They are important!

Kind Regards

Herodite.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
I believe one of their reports stated that they receive about 50% of 'lifetime revenue' from a player within the first 6 months,roughly 70% after 12 months. Only 9% of players spend money.

As I said; if they think this is how they can improve that, then they will.
yup, I remember that presentation from some convention as well.
So it doesn't matter for us, it's not the first time they try to optimalise the first 5 chapters. and they might do it a few times more for this simple reason
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
Hi Guys!

I see this is causing quite the conversation :D

As with all proposed changes going through the motions, these are subject to change! Nothing has been finalised as yet but keep those thoughts coming! They are important!

Kind Regards

Herodite.
It might have helpend if the opening post had a little more information for example that the needed KP to het trough the chapters is pretty much reduced by 50%+ to help players get faster trough the chapters.
Now people do not see they reach chapter 5 as quickly as formerly chapter 3 and only read BLOCKED CHAPTER 5 WAAAAHHHH!
 

Almondum

Spellcaster
Hello,

I am not a very active forum member, but I reguarly play the game when I have the time.
I also enjoy making other smaller cities and try other things.

Short version:
This is a not very good idea. No fellowship will want to play with me (my smaller cities) now...same would go for the new players. Why would someone want a "free loader" in their FS until he/she reaches the Chap5?
Are you trying to make less players play Elvenar? I don't understand.

Long version:

If the argument is "it was too many things too early", I don't believe that is a big concern. Most people learn how to cope with it all while in a fellowship (how to level AW, how to participate in FS Adv, how to fight in tournaments).
If you lock the new players from fellowships until the chapter 5...well, I don't think many newbies will stay until the 5th chapter playing alone. To be clear, when I say "lock", I don't mean it directly, I mean it in the sense that the majority of the active fellowships won't want the players who will not be able to contribute (by design) to the majority fo the FS's activities ( aka "free loaders" against their own will...)

I am not active enough to know if this kind of feedback has any effect, but these are my "two cents" regarding the upcoming changes.

Have a wonderful weekend,
Almondum.
 

Hekata

Summoner
he needed KP to het trough the chapters is pretty much reduced by 50%+ to help players get faster trough the chapters.
Now people do not see they reach chapter 5 as quickly as formerly chapter 3
Ok, fair point but this is still doesn't make it a good change IMO.
1. KPs are not the only factor that you need to go through a chapter: you need goods to open techs and a certain amount of provinces completed (unless they have reduced that too) and completing provinces takes goods and they will have less goods because they have less relics. One way around it could be to get nice deals from their FS but as @Almondum um said it's going to be harder for them to get into a good FS before they reach chapter 5.
2 This also means they will reach guest races so much faster and before they have had time to fully develop their city build enough resources for it to function properly.

I think that this changes has little to do with making it better and easier for the new players and that the main goal is to put a stop to the little Spire cities. (as @Wibbly Woo has also suggested)
 
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CrazyWizard

Shaman
Ok, fair point but this is still doesn't make it a good change IMO.
1. KPs are not the only factor that you need to go through a chapter: you need goods to open techs and a certain amount of provinces completed (unless they have reduced that too) and completing provinces takes goods and they will have less goods because they have less relics. One way around it could be to get nice deals from their FS but as @Almondum um said it's going to be harder for them to get into a good FS before they reach chapter 5.
2 This also means they will reach guest races so much faster and before they have had time to fully develop their city build enough resources for it to function properly.

I think that this changes has little to do with making it better and easier for the new players and that the main goal is to put a stop to the little Spire cities. (as @Wibbly Woo has also suggested)
Exactly, what happens now is that a lot of players are dumping all there resources into spire and tournament when they cannot sustain that, instead those will now be diverted to things that matter in the early stages.

Many of you look at this from your "experienced" point of vieuw. but this is not about any of us, but about inexperienced players. players who do not know what is good for them. players who do no grab all concepts instantly and players who do not know better.

How could they ever miss the tournaments, of they never experienced tournaments, same with spire ect.

This is all about the "noobs" joining the game. how can they turn noobs into vets.
This is done by keeping them hooked with a more fast paced early game untill they are hooked permanently and about not throwing them into the abyss, but slowly introducing each part of the game, from combat, to craftingg, to tournamerntsto spire.

by not having them learning to balance resources on 5 part of the game at the same time, but taking 1 step at the time.

As @Killiak said before, Inno revealed in the past that 50% of there revenue is generated in the first 6 months of the game. so player retention in the first 6 months is absolute key. also important is not the power user perspective, but that noob, loging in 3 times a day that ignores the forum. thats 95% of your player base.
 

Hekata

Summoner
what happens now is that a lot of players are dumping all there resources into spire and tournament when they cannot sustain that, instead those will now be diverted to things that matter in the early stages.
I do agree that it's a not wise for a newbie to waste their resources on everything which is why I do understand that the Spire is pushed for later (although obviously from a FS point of view that's not good news). Plus the Spire provides what I consider bonus goods (diamonds, time boosters, SF, MR etc) that are very helpful for the game but not crucial especially in early chapters. (In fact I'd argue that FA should also come much later because it seems to be the most confusing part of the game for new players)
The tournament on the other hand provides resources that are necessary to the core of the game: relics + kps. which why that's the thing that bothers me the most about these changes.

Ofc new players won't "miss" what they don't know, but that's not what I said. I said they will go much slower without the relics to boost their production. In tournament they can fight some encounters and cater others, so yes they will "waste" some goods but they'd get much more by increasing their production.

And I am in fact looking this from the perspective of a new player: do you know how hard it is to convince a lot of them not to build non-boosted factories even now? Think how it will look when the difference between their boosted and non-boosted is not that big becasue they don't have that many relics.
Plus if, as you said, they get from chapter 1 to chapter 5 as fast as it is getting from chapter 1 to chapter 3 now, then my point stands: not enough time to slowly learn about the game and build enough resources before starting with guest races.

And I think that someone already made this point: players mostly learn about the game form their fellows and if this will keep them away from a good FS until chapter 5 then it would have the opposite effect of what you say was intended by this change.

This is what Killiak said:
It makes me wonder if the market research team maybe concluded that they can score more diamond purchases this way, from frustrated people.
While I agree that most changes done to the game are targeted to increasing profit I am kind of confused how new player would spend money on a games that frustrates them. If I start a new game and I find it frustrating on any level I would just stop playing and look for another. Obviously, if market research says that's how it works, I can't argue with that, but I still find it baffling.
 

Alcaro

Illusionist
"If new players (or players creating new cities) notice minor differences in the progress before Chapter VI, please note this is normal and the discrepancies completely even out soon."

Question - these minor differences will apply to all players or just to the newly created cities? I am asking this because I have a lovely "kindergarden" in my FS and the "kids" are doing a good job in Spire and Tourny. This change, if applies to all players no matter when they started the cities, beside affecting them directly, will affect also the FSs which accepted them and those FSs might be forced to replace them with players able to participate in all FS's activities.
Care to give a straight answer @anonglitch ?

EDIT - in Beta, the answer was no, the already built cities will not be affected.
 
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CrazyWizard

Shaman
Ofc new players won't "miss" what they don't know, but that's not what I said. I said they will go much slower without the relics to boost their production. In tournament they can fight some encounters and cater others, so yes they will "waste" some goods but they'd get much more by increasing their production.
Lets look at how many boosted relics a player could get in the first few weeks.

Almost none, those first provincies give 1 relic per round. and the second relic is province way tooo many.
You overstimate the gained relics in the first few weeks, especially with the speedup they introduced. there pretty much nonexitent, especially compared to relics gained on the world map.
 

Killiak

Artisan
While I agree that most changes done to the game are targeted to increasing profit I am kind of confused how new player would spend money on a games that frustrates them. If I start a new game and I find it frustrating on any level I would just stop playing and look for another. Obviously, if market research says that's how it works, I can't argue with that, but I still find it baffling.

Most people would do just that; quit.
But that is not the target audience anyway, they just exist as padding for the patient and the ones willing to spend. After all, only 9% of the players will spend money.... about half of it within the first 6 months.
 
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