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Martial Monastery

Hekata

Artisan
I know there is a consensus between players that the Monastery is one of the must have military AWs, but I was wondering after which level it stops being useful. Mine is at level 17 and I'm thinking whether I should upgrade it any further. The benefit to health is less than 1% .(0,75%) Doesn't the penalty for 1 more wonder level make that little increase worthless or at the very best changes nothing?
 

SkyRider99

Mentor
You make a good point Hekata. I see this dilemma with most of my AWs too. I just use the 'gut feeling' method to decide what I want to do next. If the benefits are miserable, then I look elsewhere for upgrades.

There are however some AWs (e.g. Sunset Towers, Mana Maze) that are worthy of upgrades, even though the incremental benefits are typically miserly.

As an aside, if you want to stop your fellowship contributing KPs to an AW that you have decided to suspend, then just fill the KP bucket and don't actually upgrade it.
 

kurgkurg

Conjurer
My gut feeling says it's useful to upgrade to max and I did it in all my cities :) but, of course, my feeling may be wrong. anyway, it works and I can do good results with it
 

Turing

Bard
Every level of an AW produces the same benefit (apart from the rune ones which are doubles) until 30. So there's not really a level at which things stop being beneficial - if the upgrade from 1 to 2 is worthwhile then the upgrade from 29 to 30 will be.

If you have 200 AW levels in total then adding a level to an AW adds about 0.2% to the squad and cater size in the tourney, thus increasing your losses by 0.2%. Each monastery level reduces your losses by at least 0.75% (1.5% for the rune ones); actually sometimes more since more of your troops survive round 1 of battle and get to shoot in round 2, reducing the damage you take in subsequent rounds further etc...

Once the KP cost of the upgrades gets very high it might be you could get more benefit elsewhere faster by doing 2 or 3 upgrades of a lower level wonder. And it might be others AW just directly give more benefit per level. But monastery upgrades are always beneficial to the tourney.
 

BlueBlou

Illusionist
I am not a fast upgrader, but my view is that the martial monastery benefits all the troops and therefor worth getting the kp. Calculating tipping points of where it will make a major difference, nah, not even going to try that.
 

Hekata

Artisan
I am not a fast upgrader, but my view is that the martial monastery benefits all the troops and therefor worth getting the kp. Calculating tipping points of where it will make a major difference, nah, not even going to try that.
Same here, I'm not big on calculating that kind of things (not sure I'd even know how) and I have filled all the AWs that my gut feeling -as @kurgkurg ans @SkyRider99 put it- told me were useful so now I am not sure what to do with kps next, hence my question. I am a fast upgrader simply because I'm camping in chapter 15 and getting a lot of kps from every tournament. I'm not even use the instants, just the "free" kps and still the AWs level super fast :(
 

Hekata

Artisan
As an aside, if you want to stop your fellowship contributing KPs to an AW that you have decided to suspend, then just fill the KP bucket and don't actually upgrade it.
Yeah, I do that regularly, I have a lot of AWs that are either filled but not upgraded or in the rune level. But for me it's not so much a problem in stopping fellows from donating, we have kp swaps and if I don't participate I usually don't get kps, the problem is what to do with my kps...
 

Hekata

Artisan
If you have 200 AW levels in total then adding a level to an AW adds about 0.2% to the squad and cater size in the tourney, thus increasing your losses by 0.2%. Each monastery level reduces your losses by at least 0.75% (1.5% for the rune ones); actually sometimes more since more of your troops survive round 1 of battle and get to shoot in round 2, reducing the damage you take in subsequent rounds further etc...
Thank you, this is very useful, I'm not good at calculating this kind of things :)
I currently have 219 wonder levels so it's probably a bit more than 0,2% for me but most likely I'd still get more benefits than damage. I'm also considering deleting my Forge, that would free 11 levels that I can use for the Monastery.
 

JollyElf

Soothsayer
what to do with my kps...
Very true kps loose their value for us, given many (or at least the forum people) are aware of the tournament formula.

And main reason for boredom is stagnation. Please give us compelling reasons to move forward in the forth coming chapters. @anonglitch consider this a feedback from all of us at chapter 15-16.
 

JollyElf

Soothsayer
Thanks you, this is very useful, I'm not good at calculating this kind of things :)
I currently have 219 wonder levels so it's probably a bit more than 0,2% for me but most likely I'd still get more benefits than damage. I'm also considering deleting my Forge, that would free 11 levels that I can use for the Monastery.
219 to 220 wonder levels
(1+0.003x219) = 1.657
(1+0.003x220) = 1.66
(1.66-1.657=0.003)/1.66 x 100 = 0.18% increase.
Means if you consume 1000 squads now, after 1 level upgrade you consume 1001.8 squads after.

PS-1 : gut feeling is often right but math is definitive.
PS-2 : actual problem is multiplicative nature of the formula. If You do 1 additional research, it’s research cost x the new Aw cost which gets larger. Eventually snowball turns into a avalanche.
PS -3 : Mm is cool as it adds 0.75% health whole cost increases only by ~0.2% with 200 aw levels.
 
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CrazyWizard

Shaman
You can't really calculate benefits vs costs, because the value depends on other factors.
at some point in the game even a level of any wonder would be worse that not having them.

The issue is research value * wonderlevel * expansions.
wonderlevel in this case is a static 0.01

if research would be 1 and expansions 2 then it would be 1*0.01*2=0.02 added to the difficulty value.

But if research is 5 and expansions is 12 the added to the difficulty level would be 5*0.01*12= 0.6
This is 30 times as much. 0.6 doesnt sound much but 0.6*200=120 and thats huge compared to 5 and 12

This is why the tournament formula was broken from the get go, no value stands alone. it means that at some point in game the values will be so high that anything would be bad for your tournament / spire game. it's an exponentially growing formula and nothing else is exponential.

In fact all other numbers like for example goods and unit production are gelling constantly slowing % gains with each chapter

There is now way that 1 expansions adds X to the game difficulty, because X depends on wonderlevels and research.
Same for research. you cant say research adds Y because it depends on wonderlevels and expansion values
and for wonderlevels its depends on expansions and research.

All values are connected with eachother
So not all wonderlevels are equal
 
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BlueBlou

Illusionist
What to do with your kp? One option is to just let it pile up, or you can give it away to others that actually want it.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
25623 knowledge points saved, in case some day in the future the developers have there eureka moment and fix this crap, then I got all the KP to advance trough the tree a quick as possible
 

Turing

Bard
You can't really calculate benefits vs costs, because the value depends on other factors.
at some point in the game even a level of any wonder would be worse that not having them.

The issue is research value * wonderlevel * expansions.
wonderlevel in this case is a static 0.01

if research would be 1 and expansions 2 then it would be 1*0.01*2=0.02 added to the difficulty value.

But if research is 5 and expansions is 12 the added to the difficulty level would be 5*0.01*12= 0.6
This is 30 times as much. 0.6 doesnt sound much but 0.6*200=120 and thats huge compared to 5 and 12
...

You are right the tourney factors multiply but have drawn completely the wrong conclusion. If you have high expansions and research then 1 AW level is a bigger numeric increase in the tourney squad size and thus a bigger numeric increase in troop losses. But because squads are also already larger the benefit of the sanctuary (reducing troop losses by at least 0.75% per kp level) is also larger in terms of number of troops.

Both factors work as percentage changes to your current troop losses per encounter, so we can simply compare the percentages.

Research and expansions have no effect on the calculation of sanctuary benefit since they increase both the cost and benefit equally.

The more existing AW levels you have the more beneficial the sanctuary is: at 0 AW adding a level adds around 0.3% to the tourney cost; at 700 or so existing levels it adds only 0.1%. The benefit remains 0.75% or 1.5% in either case. So the sanctuary is better the more other AW you already have.

Getting really far out there, the only thing that weakens the benefit of the sanctuary is if you can consistently add a lot of DA/UUU buildings. AFAIK the health bonuses add rather than multiply. So if you have 2 DA buildings for +100% health and a sanctuary giving +20%, that sanctuary is increasing your health from 200% of default to 220% of default: ie it's actually a 10% increase on the value-with-DA-but-without-sanctuary. If you can consistently add more than 100% of health boost (more than 2 DA, 4 UUU or mix) AND have few AW levels then the sanctuary benefit can become very small as these other health bonuses are diluting the sanctuary bonus. The only way to get more of these buildings consistently is to have a max timewarp and polar bear allowing 2 entire tournaments to be done in one building placement. So with a max timewarp, no other AWs at all, and throwing diamonds at the MA to respin to get more UUU you might just about reach a situation where sanctuary kp-upgrades didn't help. Or if you cater the tournament of course ;)

But back in the real world all sanctuary upgrades are beneficial for all cities for fighting the tournament.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
You are right the tourney factors multiply but have drawn completely the wrong conclusion. If you have high expansions and research then 1 AW level is a bigger numeric increase in the tourney squad size and thus a bigger numeric increase in troop losses. But because squads are also already larger the benefit of the sanctuary (reducing troop losses by at least 0.75% per kp level) is also larger in terms of number of troops.

Both factors work as percentage changes to your current troop losses per encounter, so we can simply compare the percentages.

Research and expansions have no effect on the calculation of sanctuary benefit since they increase both the cost and benefit equally.

The more existing AW levels you have the more beneficial the sanctuary is: at 0 AW adding a level adds around 0.3% to the tourney cost; at 700 or so existing levels it adds only 0.1%. The benefit remains 0.75% or 1.5% in either case. So the sanctuary is better the more other AW you already have.

Getting really far out there, the only thing that weakens the benefit of the sanctuary is if you can consistently add a lot of DA/UUU buildings. AFAIK the health bonuses add rather than multiply. So if you have 2 DA buildings for +100% health and a sanctuary giving +20%, that sanctuary is increasing your health from 200% of default to 220% of default: ie it's actually a 10% increase on the value-with-DA-but-without-sanctuary. If you can consistently add more than 100% of health boost (more than 2 DA, 4 UUU or mix) AND have few AW levels then the sanctuary benefit can become very small as these other health bonuses are diluting the sanctuary bonus. The only way to get more of these buildings consistently is to have a max timewarp and polar bear allowing 2 entire tournaments to be done in one building placement. So with a max timewarp, no other AWs at all, and throwing diamonds at the MA to respin to get more UUU you might just about reach a situation where sanctuary kp-upgrades didn't help. Or if you cater the tournament of course ;)

But back in the real world all sanctuary upgrades are beneficial for all cities for fighting the tournament.

You are partially correct, yes martial monestary is always a save of x% of your troops but you ignore the downside of having bigger troop size in the first place.

If my MM saves me 3 more units in each fight but I lose 4 more units because of the bigger SS then the net gain would be -1 unit per fight.
The net gain or loss of a wonderlevel is not quantifyable into a single number, you need to enter alle the assasiated values to find out if you have a net gain or loss.
So yes MM always saves x% in each battle in units due to higher HP, and this scales, with bigger SS you save more units. but you cannot ignore the gain in SS itself and the associated losses you will incur because of it.

At some point already in existence or in the future the gain in SS and therefore the increase in losses will outstrip the benefit in unit loss reduction.
 

JollyElf

Soothsayer
actual problem is multiplicative nature of the formula
I agree with both of you.
But it is really simple to come out with an additive formula, with fitting coefficients to match with a chapter 15 CAL (per say). And then the further chapters need not be beneficial but at least not punitive and that’s enough motivation for us to play the game.
Looking at the sky like optimus prime, with hope for the future :)
 

DeletedUser501

Enchanter
You are partially correct, yes martial monestary is always a save of x% of your troops but you ignore the downside of having bigger troop size in the first place.

If my MM saves me 3 more units in each fight but I lose 4 more units because of the bigger SS then the net gain would be -1 unit per fight.
The net gain or loss of a wonderlevel is not quantifyable into a single number, you need to enter alle the assasiated values to find out if you have a net gain or loss.
So yes MM always saves x% in each battle in units due to higher HP, and this scales, with bigger SS you save more units. but you cannot ignore the gain in SS itself and the associated losses you will incur because of it.

At some point already in existence or in the future the gain in SS and therefore the increase in losses will outstrip the benefit in unit loss reduction.

It doesn´t matter how much penalty the martial monastery could or coudn´t give you, or how much loses in terms of single units it could cause you with 3-4 Brown Bears (aka imba bears), 4-6 UUUs, and thousands of time boosters that penalty is a little fly to a player with all that.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
It doesn´t matter how much penalty the martial monastery could or coudn´t give you, or how much loses in terms of single units it could cause you with 3-4 Brown Bears (aka imba bears), 4-6 UUUs, and thousands of time boosters that penalty is a little fly to a player with all that.

Are you seriously gonna continue that closed thread here?
 
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