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Leagues

Fugawe

Dreamer
Since the event has a set number of quests for everyone and assuming at least the top 5% of the players will complete all quests and that those players choose the optimal conversion between the sorcerer's knowledge and league points, it seems like the only two variables are randomly getting sorcerer's knowledge on the rolls and purchasing sorcerer's knowledge. So, with the exception of the very few who make get more than their share of lucky rolls, it appears to me at least that the leagues are (for at least between the gold and silver levels) pay to win.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
it appears to me at least that the leagues are (for at least between the gold and silver levels) pay to win.
Of course they are, that is the whole point!

the question is maybe if that is good or bad? I find it good, because the rewards of the gold league are so small it really makes no difference to gameplay. It entices people to pay Inno, but they get nothing for it that makes them better at anything than people who don´t pay.
I find Inno is in general handling pay2win rather well all things considered. Most things that can be bought for money are completely unimportant to game play, the only thing that can be bought with money that actually matters to some people is the very high end of the ranking table. But if you don´t care about that you have nothing to fear from any diamond player :)
 

Pauly7

Magus
Since the event has a set number of quests for everyone and assuming at least the top 5% of the players will complete all quests and that those players choose the optimal conversion between the sorcerer's knowledge and league points, it seems like the only two variables are randomly getting sorcerer's knowledge on the rolls and purchasing sorcerer's knowledge. So, with the exception of the very few who make get more than their share of lucky rolls, it appears to me at least that the leagues are (for at least between the gold and silver levels) pay to win.
From reading it I get the feeling you are assuming that placement in the league is based on numbers of Sorcerer's Knowledge collected. It's actually based on the numbers of Staffs you've collected using the SK... So, therefore, there are big variances depending on whether people open the correct beacons that lead to more staffs.

However, your point is still mostly right. It is pay to win. Don't expect to get anywhere near gold unless you've used diamonds, and probably quite a significant number. That being said, luck also comes into it. One huge deciding factor is how many times people win the bonus 300 or 200 scrolls. If you get incredibly lucky with those then you could, in theory, still blow all the diamond spenders out of the water. However, target the 80 and 89 beacons at your peril. They are not the most efficient for collecting staffs, so if you don't get lucky then you will end up worse off.
 

Far Reach

Soothsayer
I find Inno is in general handling pay2win rather well all things considered.
I agree

Most things that can be bought for money are completely unimportant to game play, the only thing that can be bought with money that actually matters to some people is the very high end of the ranking table. But if you don´t care about that you have nothing to fear from any diamond player
I think that in all aspects of the game there are things which can be bought with money and which provide a competitive advantage. These can all be counter-balanced to some extent by a skilled and active free to play city though. I certainly wouldn't single out ranking. Other obvious areas include:

Fellowship Adventures (Combining Catalyst production)
Tournament (using diamonds to generate extra booster buildings)
Spire (spending diamonds to make diplomacy easier)
Events (to get extra rewards such as multiple Fire Phoenix)
 
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Gargon667

Mentor
My theory is the Amatuer league should be the top one, as it will be filled with people who pay to play, which is a common definition of amatuer...
true as well! Where can I apply for the professional league and get paid to play?
 

Gargon667

Mentor
I think that in all aspects of the game there are things which can be bought with money and which provide a competitive advantage. These can all be counter-balanced to some extent by a skilled and active free to play city though.
Yes I wan´t very exhaustive with the list, but since you pick it up i am happy to discuss :D
Now as always I comment from my perspective which is a gold medal FS. Discussing pay to win means in my eyes that I actually have to pay, using the diamonds the game gives for free I do not count here.

I certainly wouldn't single out ranking.
I believe ranking is the main arena for pay2win, because this is where you actually need big amounts of diamonds invested into permanent benefits (mainly premium expansions). And you have no alternative.

Fellowship Adventures (Combining Catalyst production)
No need to go as far as having to pay. Regular game play creates far more than enough diamonds for that. Btw I believe you meant Vision Vapour (or arcane residue), not CC production.
On the other hand there are some people that dump huge quantities of diamonds down the bottomless pit (or so I have heard). That I would call pay2win, but at least it creates no lasting benefit, so people would have to pay every single time. I assume they would get tired of it soon enough?


Tournament (using diamonds to generate extra booster buildings)
Same as above. It does not need huge quantities of diamonds and gives no permanent benefit. Again, directly using diamonds to win encounters works as pay2win, but one has no lasting advantage from doing so.

Spire (spending diamonds to make diplomacy easier)
You mean buying turns? I would consider that even less than the 2 above options. Every spire creates far more diamonds than is necessary to complete it, usually through individual rewards, not even talking about the medals... well of course one really needs no diamonds at all, but as you says it makes it even easier. I find it a clear case: Pay4laziness, but not pay2win.


Events (to get extra rewards such as multiple Fire Phoenix)
That is the one I was thinking about myself but didn´t mention for various reasons.

Only 2 event rewards ever created can be considered pay2win: Fire Phoenix and Brown Bear. All other rewards are not affecting game play enough to consider them as such.

1. I did not mention them, because they are years in the past now and highly unlikely to ever become an option again. Yes we can still get them, but only one of them, pay2win would mean getting multiples.

2. The Fire Phoenix was extremely expensive to multiply, which lead to it being extremely rare, to be honest I only know of 1 single town (I assume there should be more) in EN3 that has multiple Firebirds (or had them at some point in the past). That town is nowhere near the top of any tournament, which means we were lucky and not affected negatively by this possibility. However if I or any other serious tournament town had bought a second firebird, the game would be broken. I do not know how this ended up working in other worlds, but I certainly would not want to play in a world where a good tourney player has 2 Firebirds.

3. The brown bear is the other game changing building. The difference is: Multiples were available to everybody because of the unlimited questlines back then! The most I know of in our FS are 7 brown bears (I think it was) achieved at the cost of exactly zero diamonds. It can be called exploiting loopholes, but since it cost nothing it can´t be called pay2win. I myself regret a little bit being busy with work at the time and only being able to play the event for about 10 days actively, but it still left me with 2 brown bears at least. Some people certainly bought the bears with money, but it is hard to say since both options existed, paying certainly was not necessary, so I would call it more a case of pay4lazy.
 

Far Reach

Soothsayer
Discussing pay to win means in my eyes that I actually have to pay, using the diamonds the game gives for free I do not count here.
I agree, and my comments were based on that. The League is fundamentally different in that gaining the advantage requires payment directly.


I believe ranking is the main arena for pay2win, because this is where you actually need big amounts of diamonds invested into permanent benefits (mainly premium expansions). And you have no alternative.
I suspect that we mainly disagree on this point. I agree that having lots of premium expansions is a significant contributory factor to ranking score (although there are many other factors too). With the demise of wishing wells, there are far fewer free diamonds around than there were a year or two ago. That obviously makes the accumulation of premium expansions by a free-2-play player much more difficult. It would be very hard for an entirely free-2-play player starting now to eventually (several years down the line) reach the very top end of the rankings. I consider that it would still be possible though.

As you've discussed, other arenas benefit from diamonds too (and they are probably essential to win in the Fellowship Adventures). Changes over the past year or so have certainly moved both FA & Tournaments towards providing paying players with more of an advantage. My guess is that you (and most of your fellows) have put a much higher proportion of your won-in-game diamonds into FAs & tournaments than city infrastructure. I've done the opposite. Our perspectives may therefore be different.


As an aside, how much a difference do you think it would make if a player was averaging a spend of a couple of thousand diamonds each week on generating booster buildings ? I reckon that the tournament impact (relative to a player spending nothing) would be significantly more than a second fire phoenix.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
I agree, and my comments were based on that. The League is fundamentally different in that gaining the advantage requires payment directly.
Absolutely, the only argument I have is to say that paz2win includes "winning" something. Being in the gold league is not winning anything of importance. you get a few gimmicks and a portrait and the best thing is a "double" of a set building. Nothing one could call a serious advantage. So I´d rather call it pay2brag instead of pay2win :D
And as I said before I find this a completely acceptable (even positive) thing for everybody involved, good for Inno to make money, good for paying customers that have fun doing it and good for all non-paying players that have their bills paid by somebody else without the game balance being hurt :)

I suspect that we mainly disagree on this point. I agree that having lots of premium expansions is a significant contributory factor to ranking score (although there are many other factors too). With the demise of wishing wells, there are far fewer free diamonds around than there were a year or two ago. That obviously makes the accumulation of premium expansions by a free-2-play player much more difficult. It would be very hard for an entirely free-2-play player starting now to eventually (several years down the line) reach the very top end of the rankings. I consider that it would still be possible though.
Which other factors would say there are? I don´t know much about ranking, I have never even tried it, so my imagination is rather limited. For a free2play town all I can think of is plastering the entire city with Magic residences, factories and armories and nothing else. Maxing out all AWs of course. That´s obviously the standard. But that´s not enough if you want the top spot. You need more space for more of the same. The first premium expansions are cheap enough to be accessible for everybody, but diamonds generated by the game are just not enough to even get close to the last expansions, at least not diamonds generated over say 5 years of playing.

Wishing Well farms were ended exactly because of this loophole, it made pay2win available for non-paying players :) And even then the amount of wishing wells needed to buy the last premium expansions would have been rather staggering, I don´t remember how many, but I did at some point calculate it, just for the sake of it when a friend asked if it was possible. anyway that is not going to happen anymore.


As you've discussed, other arenas benefit from diamonds too (and they are probably essential to win in the Fellowship Adventures). Changes over the past year or so have certainly moved both FA & Tournaments towards providing paying players with more of an advantage. My guess is that you (and most of your fellows) have put a much higher proportion of your won-in-game diamonds into FAs & tournaments than city infrastructure. I've done the opposite. Our perspectives may therefore be different.
Well hard to say what other fellows do, but since the beginning of the new tourney system I have put exactly 0 diamonds into city infrastructure and it will stay that way until the tourney formula is changed. Chapter progress is stopped, so I have no need to upgrade Magic buildings and Premium expansions are a pay2lose deal under the current formula, so no thank you.
I spend rather few diamonds overall, simply because I have no place where I can spend diamonds that is useful, with one exception and I can´t spend as many as I gain every week there either, so my diamonds total is slowly increasing all the time. That is MA flipping. Now in theory of course one can flip the MA as often as one has diamonds, but the only real reason to do so are 5-day-booster buildings, since I have a steady supply of them (I tend to keep between 50 and 100 of them in my inventory) there is no real reason to flip the MA more often than I do.

FAs need no further diamond investment beyond that. The only necessary adjustment was to move the MA flipping to the FA weeks rather than to do it whenever one feels like. So the diamonds storage is turned into an upwards zig-zag instead of a steady increase.
The amounts of diamonds necessary would of course be higher if you were the only VV badge producer in a FA winning FS, but that is highly unlikely ;) As long as you have a FS where everybody wants to win an FA (and you should if you want to win) diamonds is not going to be the thing to stop you. I have a hard time estimating, but I would guess less than 1000 per town and FA?

Actually the way I play right now, I have the opposite case, the MA flipping I do during the FAs makes enough booster buildings, so I never have to flip the MA outside FAs, so one could argue that FAs cost me diamonds, but I spend none on MA flipping instead. But the difference is so small I guess it is pointless discussing that.

As an aside, how much a difference do you think it would make if a player was averaging a spend of a couple of thousand diamonds each week on generating booster buildings ? I reckon that the tournament impact (relative to a player spending nothing) would be significantly more than a second fire phoenix.
Interesting question! I haven´t thought of it that way.

It´s a bit difficult comparing the 2, because well we can´t get a second firebird anymore, but lets see:
Option 1: buying a second firebird: a 1-time (huge) investment with the bonus being permanent for the lifetime of the city.
Option 2: Buying boosters: it is a rather opposite approach: constant (moderate) investment for temporary bonus, that ends the second you end spending.

From a gameplay perspective I would prefer option 2. Permanent boni are just too powerful. So I am happy we have option 2, but not option 1.

A couple of thousand diamonds a week is actually rather a lot, so we are definitely in a pay2win game here, not in a free diamonds scenario. I don´t actually keep track of how many diamonds a building costs, so I can´t say. but we are definitely talking extra buildings every week. But how many? I would say single digits somewhere.

Now is that better than a second firebird? Mainly depends on the tourney, I would say: in Marble/Steel probably yes, in Planks/Scrolls probably no.
The big thing about the Firebird is it boosts every units damage, while buildings only boost M and LR damage (by more than 1 bird) and all units HP.
Since we are talking rather high end here, I guess we are also talking high end tourney scores, say 15-20k as minimum goal? And for high end tourney score I will always use buildings, so we are talking 10-15 buildings plus 2 firebirds vs. 15-20 buildings plus 1 firebird. Does that sound like a reasonable assumption?

In this scenario I think I would go for the firebird option in any tourney. The difficult tourneys (which are the ones where I need units other than LR+M) obviously so. But I think even in the easy Marble/Steel weeks where I usee mostly LR+M the Firebird would help me more, simply because the losses I have mainly come from the difficult fights not the easy ones.

Just to illustrate what I mean: 1 province in marble will make me fight 5 times with mages (against mostly HM) and 1 time with HR (against other stuff). the buildings will boost my mages 5 times by 100% (2MMMs) plus all my units 6 times 50% HP (2UUUs) bonus so the overall boost would be 500% damage and 300% HP, while the bird only boosts 6 times 50%, so 300% damage, no HP at all. But how will my unit losses change? In the 5 easy fights my losses would be negligible without any of the boosts, while the one difficult fight is where I loose 3 squads. Boosting the easy fights gains me nearly nothing (because I can´t loose less than nothing), while boosting the difficult fight saves me troops. The difference is even more drastic, if we take into consideration the possibility to loose the difficult fight. If I lose the difficult fight, no (reasonable) amount of booster building will win the fight, but the firebird can.

So bottom line, if I have the free choice of both options I would take the second bird.

For the average Joe the answer may be different of course, but for them other things will probably be far more important than this completely hypothetical question. But undoubtedly spending diamonds on MA flipping will definitely increase tourney scores for everybody, no matter what :)
 

Far Reach

Soothsayer
Absolutely, the only argument I have is to say that paz2win includes "winning" something. Being in the gold league is not winning anything of importance. you get a few gimmicks and a portrait and the best thing is a "double" of a set building. Nothing one could call a serious advantage. So I´d rather call it pay2brag instead of pay2win :D
I agree. But the same could certainly be said for Fellowship Adventures, or indeed the game as a whole.

Well hard to say what other fellows do, but since the beginning of the new tourney system I have put exactly 0 diamonds into city infrastructure and it will stay that way until the tourney formula is changed. Chapter progress is stopped, so I have no need to upgrade Magic buildings and Premium expansions are a pay2lose deal under the current formula, so no thank you.
I spend rather few diamonds overall, simply because I have no place where I can spend diamonds that is useful, with one exception and I can´t spend as many as I gain every week there either, so my diamonds total is slowly increasing all the time. That is MA flipping. Now in theory of course one can flip the MA as often as one has diamonds, but the only real reason to do so are 5-day-booster buildings, since I have a steady supply of them (I tend to keep between 50 and 100 of them in my inventory) there is no real reason to flip the MA more often than I do.
This describes your gameplay, but this isn't exactly what my point was. I was suggesting that a player who chooses to spend a lot of money will have an advantage in whichever aspects of the game they spend it on.

FAs need no further diamond investment beyond that. The only necessary adjustment was to move the MA flipping to the FA weeks rather than to do it whenever one feels like. So the diamonds storage is turned into an upwards zig-zag instead of a steady increase.
The amounts of diamonds necessary would of course be higher if you were the only VV badge producer in a FA winning FS, but that is highly unlikely ;) As long as you have a FS where everybody wants to win an FA (and you should if you want to win) diamonds is not going to be the thing to stop you. I have a hard time estimating, but I would guess less than 1000 per town and FA?
That estimate looks reasonable to me, but it is still a lot of diamonds for most fellowships (e.g. those doing bronze in the Spire, and/or including some fellows who will help out in FAs but have other priorities).


A couple of thousand diamonds a week is actually rather a lot, so we are definitely in a pay2win game here, not in a free diamonds scenario. I don´t actually keep track of how many diamonds a building costs, so I can´t say. but we are definitely talking extra buildings every week. But how many? I would say single digits somewhere.
2k diamonds a week will give 40 extra recipe sets (in addition to the maximum of 28 which can be achieved without MA flipping). That would suggest somewhere between a doubling and tripling of the number of MA booster buildings available each week.


Now is that better than a second firebird? Mainly depends on the tourney, I would say: in Marble/Steel probably yes, in Planks/Scrolls probably no.
The big thing about the Firebird is it boosts every units damage, while buildings only boost M and LR damage (by more than 1 bird) and all units HP.

So bottom line, if I have the free choice of both options I would take the second bird.

For the average Joe the answer may be different of course, but for them other things will probably be far more important than this completely hypothetical question. But undoubtedly spending diamonds on MA flipping will definitely increase tourney scores for everybody, no matter what :)
I actually don't think that this is a hypothetical question. Recently I've noticed a couple of players (there might be more) rushing through and completing the latest chapter. By my calculations I can't see how this could have been achieved without each spending well over 100,000 diamonds ! One of these players in particular typically places a large number of booster buildings in the tournament, and generally places highly. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if their tournament spending averages 2k+ diamonds per week.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
I agree. But the same could certainly be said for Fellowship Adventures, or indeed the game as a whole.
True, I guess the only thing to be "won" is the first place :)

This describes your gameplay, but this isn't exactly what my point was. I was suggesting that a player who chooses to spend a lot of money will have an advantage in whichever aspects of the game they spend it on.
Yes, it will give an advantage, otherwise what would be the point. The question is how big is the advantage, is it so big that nobody who doesn´t pay can win or is it only a small benefit that can easily be countered by other actions? I think that is what the whole discussion is about.
If the benefit is too big (like I believe it is for ranking scores and the event leagues) that part of the game becomes uninteresting, if it is small enough (like I believe it is in tourneys/spire/FA) it is no problem. Better organisation/skills/online times whatever will win over money.

That estimate looks reasonable to me, but it is still a lot of diamonds for most fellowships (e.g. those doing bronze in the Spire, and/or including some fellows who will help out in FAs but have other priorities).
You are of course correct, the average Joe FS does not have that amount of diamonds, neither do they need them, because they will never win an FA. I think you were talking about diamonds needed to win an FA? I believe winning an FA will be extremely difficult (more like impossible) for a silver medal FS, if there is any gold medal FS around that tries to win. Not only because of the diamonds, much more because of the time boosts (and even extra CC help). I would say the 2 are connected. No FA win without gold medal. And for a gold medal FS the amount of diamonds needed to win is not the problem.


2k diamonds a week will give 40 extra recipe sets (in addition to the maximum of 28 which can be achieved without MA flipping). That would suggest somewhere between a doubling and tripling of the number of MA booster buildings available each week.
Good point there! Still doesn´t give us a number of how many buildings that is, but it makes me more confident that somewhere mid single digit might be correct.

I actually don't think that this is a hypothetical question. Recently I've noticed a couple of players (there might be more) rushing through and completing the latest chapter. By my calculations I can't see how this could have been achieved without each spending well over 100,000 diamonds ! One of these players in particular typically places a large number of booster buildings in the tournament, and generally places highly. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if their tournament spending averages 2k+ diamonds per week.
With hypothetical I meant talking about a second firebird.
Spending 2k diamonds a week is certainly a rather common quantity. The only novelty would be people spending them on MA flipping, but even that I don´t see as very unlikely, only unusual because of the non-permanent nature of the result.
 

Sigyn

Adventurer
The way I see it is that your getting a bit extra for putting effort into doing the quest chain......which is a good thing, as for pay to win etc.why shouldn't the players who have spent money get a little extra fair do's tbh....and like many people have said it's not soul destroyingly devastating if you don't win them. I think Inno have handled it well (I agree totally with gargon667's post at the start)....a nice balance that works for the majority......because as my nan always said "you can't please everybody all of the time and someone will always find something to complain about".
 
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Fugawe

Dreamer
Wow... Loved all of the discussion. I have no issue with folks supporting the devs and buying diamonds, etc. especially if the benefit is profile pictures, speeding up their progress, or other small stuff. The reason for the original post was that I was logging in far too often to maintain my real life responsibilities, burning up resources, then instants, etc. and generally hosing up my long term progress to strive to get to silver or gold (and I did barely eke into gold status for a moment). Then after doing the math that there are a limited number of quests but likely well over 5% of the players spending money pushing up their league placement. I realized that it was foolish to keep reaching for gold or even silver as a free-to-play player and ignore the new leagues. If I end up with Bronze and a couple of upgrade tiles, that's great, but give up on those 10 and 15 upgrade tile prizes, etc. I see my two options as ignoring Leagues or rage-quitting. At this point, I'll choose the former, but tbh if more new features block out free-to-play players from key prizes, it may turn into the latter. I was also concerned that the last section of the set was only available by attaining silver or gold, but I see it coming up now in the future prizes, so that was a relief. Thank you all for the great discussion, I learned a lot.
 

Toplaw

Novice
I would just like to point out that all of these replies have been from the perspective of larger, more experienced players. For the small to medium players that make up the bulk of Elvenor, the new League system is a poor attempt at fixing the problems with the event system. The original problem was, in my view, that if a player "finished" the event, then there was simply no point in joining into the next FA, because there was no tangible benefit unless their Fellowship could make the third level prizes. There were a couple ways that could have been addressed, including increasing the number of quests and/or allowing "extra" event artifacts obtained during the FA to be exchanged or combined into something else of value (such as diamonds or artifacts from prior events that were missed while we were still small). Instead, the new League is a bit of a travesty. If they are really saying that 20% of all players finish all of the quests, then the quests are too easy and/or they need more of them (and if that's currently the case why are they making an extra artifact the "big" prize on their stingy FAs?). But, to be blunt, I don't believe them. Admittedly, our fellowship is small and relatively young, but usually only two or three of us make it through. Again, remembering that there are 27-28 thousand players at any given time, the prediction based on the percentage asserted is that 5600 players will finish the event. Those players will only make bronze, no matter how hard or well they play, unless they have the resources of you big guys, or open their wallets. Most of us are not very large and a fair few won't pay to win on principle. The League system fails for us.
 

Pauly7

Magus
If they are really saying that 20% of all players finish all of the quests, then the quests are too easy and/or they need more of them
Where did you get that only 20% of players finish the quests? Was that something from above that I haven't read properly. For those people that play the game regularly (i.e. at least 2 or 3 visits to their city a day) then I would think that most will complete the quests. I can't hazard a percentage because I know that a lot of people will feel roadblocked by a particular thing and then give up.

But then - are you saying that you think 20% is a big number and therefore they should make the quests harder? Most people will tell you that they think the quest list should be able to be finished by most players.

I would just like to point out that all of these replies have been from the perspective of larger, more experienced players. For the small to medium players that make up the bulk of Elvenor, the new League system is a poor attempt at fixing the problems with the event system.
I'm not sure what the link is between the leagues and the rest of your point. The league is something entirely separate. Inno has designed it to generate revenue as most of the people taking the top prizes will pay to get them (or leastways they will deplete diamond stocks which they hope will lead to people paying). It is separate from the main event though. The complete set can be won without doing anything in the league, so it is something to just be ignored, or otherwise to pay attention to if you would like to win duplicate buildings.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
I'm not sure what the link is between the leagues and the rest of your point. The league is something entirely separate. Inno has designed it to generate revenue as most of the people taking the top prizes will pay to get them (or leastways they will deplete diamond stocks which they hope will lead to people paying). It is separate from the main event though. The complete set can be won without doing anything in the league, so it is something to just be ignored, or otherwise to pay attention to if you would like to win duplicate buildings.
Me neither,
Leagues is there for only one reason and that is to create another revenue stream for the game.
But if you play the event and you are not in chapter 1-2-3 when it started. it should not be that hard to complete the event if you login multiple times a day. if you complete the event 1 complete set is pretty much guaranteed.

If you are 1 of the people who logs in once per day, it doesn't matter of you are a veteran or a newbie, you will fail by default.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
No it is not, sadly. A reasonable number of players in my fellowships are already giving up on the last set building. I pretty much have, which effectively kills interest in the boring event quests for me.
I am sorry but thats really on your fellows part.
you can get staffs at a rate of 22 points or lower on average.

with 35 per day * 22 = 770 points
Random pickup 4 logins a day. 20-30 (30 is if you miss 0 pickups) per day = 440-660 points
Quests 4226 points
2x 200 from progress reward.

4226+440+770+200+200= 5836 points

5436/22 = 265 staffs = 13 main prizes or more if you pickup more around your city.

this should be enough for 1 set.
Off course if you constantly pick the wrong "expensive" chests per staff you could screw yourself.
But otherwise all players should be well below 22 points per staff on average.

Do not forget that most of the quest points are in the latter half of the quesline.