KP Swap Threads vs Chest Matching (Net0)

[DeletedUser501]

It is a problem with swap threads - they are fixed size and don't accommodate either small OR large amounts. By small, I mean if I can't do research because I'm stuck on portal stuff, and have 7kp in my bar in the evening, I can't just put it into the kp system. We have a 5kp train, so I can put 5kp in there - the other 2 can't go in there. And for large, as Dunkel says you can have 100kp etc trains. The actual limit rather depends on your FS and activity, but I don't think anyone has systems that will take more than about 200kp at once - which would cope with 1 tourney round of 50 provinces. If doing more than that (especially if doing the entire tourney at once with a max timewarp), you're going to be stuck. And many FS will have trains that can hold less than 200kp. In practice trains will cope for most people, but not everyone all the time

Personally if I've flooded the train I'm just donating the rest to myself - or maybe playing the 1kp game with some of it (which will then trickle back in as 5kp instants during the week).

It is an advantage of both WS and net0 that they can accept a (near) infinite input of KP at any time. (OK WS is limited, but with reserves it can be thousands)

- I literally have been in 2 FSs where we was exchanging 280kp in one and 230kp in another. My tactic was taking all the available threads at once ( (100, 50, 40, 30, 20, 15, 10, 7, 5, 3).
- I was doing around 65provs x 6 stars in the last fellowship I was, and all my KP from tourney and KP hunting, using KP threads, was gone in the first 2/3 days, I was advancing real fast in therms of AWs progression.
- Yes, but Wonder society system you must to wait to be your turn and after your AW is full, you´ve got to wait even more to be allowed to upgrade your targeted AW, so it is slow in my experience. In contrast in the Swap threads you can upgrade as many AWs as you want in any moment.

 

[Turing]

- Why would I put 1000 KP in my own AW if I could put 1000 kp in my FS AWs and get hundreds of KP in the chests of those AWs?

Under net0 if you put 1000kp in your own wonder you get 250kp added by your fellows. Under trains it's 200kp back in chests (and when that's reinvested etc you end up with +250kp in total). It's possible to get to 400kp or so if you always strategically take the top chest.

The question isn't why would you want to be in a FS like that. The question is why do your fellow want to be in a FS like that and use the trains where some of them get nothing at all from the KP trains?

 

[DeletedUser6472]

Anyway, I’ve got a practical question for dedicated swap threads players. How do you deal with the income from tournaments? I played the whole tournament within about half an hour and I can’t imagine how would I push all those KPs through the swap threads, because it’s simply too much in too short time period. For net0 and wonder society it isn’t a problem, but how is it with swap threads??

We have a dedicated "KP from Tournaments" thread, where we just deliver to those participating in the scheme. They return kp when they play tournament. It's not a chain, but a personal exchange of kp between players.

 

[DeletedUser501]

Under net0 if you put 1000kp in your own wonder you get 250kp added by your fellows. Under trains it's 200kp back in chests (and when that's reinvested etc you end up with +250kp in total). It's possible to get to 400kp or so if you always strategically take the top chest.

The question isn't why would you want to be in a FS like that. The question is why do your fellow want to be in a FS like that and use the trains where some of them get nothing at all from the KP trains?

Well, I could answer you saying that in the first place no fellowship would want a player that want this system so he can be benefited at first place, no fellowship will change the system that works better for them for a player or players gaming, so your question is not what the fellowship has to offer this player but more, what this player can offer the fellowship, and if this player don´t like playing in the proper manner that is required for him to get chests in the swap threads, then he can find another that help him in that aspect, but believe me, are very few ones that likes this system and even fewer players that just want to put his KP in a place without nothing in return.

 

[OldHag]

We do 0 sums and swap threads and we were doing a 3rd one, the wonder society, that may still be on the go too, as everyone has their preferences and for some, they do 0 sums when they have time to spend on the game but if they are in a hurry, they may throw their kps into the swap threads.

My personal favourite is 0 sums - no fuss, no muss.

 

[Silly Bubbles]

So pretty well, if you like no fuss and want to treat your fellows fair it's Net0. If you like KP hunting and want to get as many KPs as you can regardless who's losing out then swap threads are the best.
Unfortunately, the upcoming changes might make the fairness part of Net0 hard to do.

 

[Heymrdiedier]

So pretty well, if you like no fuss and want to treat your fellows fair it's Net0. If you like KP hunting and want to get as many KPs as you can regardless who's losing out then swap threads are the best.
Unfortunately, the upcoming changes might make the fairness part of Net0 hard to do.

theres no reason you cant focus on 2 wonders at the same time. 1 you do with netzero and the other you use the fellowship progression kp for...

 

[Silly Bubbles]

theres no reason you cant focus on 2 wonders at the same time. 1 you do with netzero and the other you use the fellowship progression kp for...

It surely can be mixed, I've seen FSs that leave it up to fellows to decide which one to use. Also, KP hunting can just be done outside of the FS rather then through swap thread.

 

[Gargon667]

The difference between the two systems is so small it is hardly worth discussing. The systems look different from the outside, but the KP benefit produced for the FS is exactly the same as long as all the KP donated come from within the FS.
Since both systems are designed to keep outsiders out of the FS wonders that is the most common case. But in case there are outside donations the swap threads have a small advantage as they fully benefit from outside donations, while net0, looses most KP donated from outside. The benfit of net0 is that it takes less messages to fill an AW. But in the end the differences are insignificant and it is pure personal preference which one to go with.

 

[Silly Bubbles]

I wonder how Perks affected the different systems of KP sharing. We're using chest matching (Net0) and personally I just picked another fellow's preferred AW to put my free KPs in and aiming to match a chest KPs before the fellow upgrades their AW.

 

[Far Reach]

I wonder how Perks affected the different systems of KP sharing. We're using chest matching (Net0) and personally I just picked another fellow's preferred AW to put my free KPs in and aiming to match a chest KPs before the fellow upgrades their AW.

At least part of my Fellowship is using a way of incorporating KP sharing into Net0/Loan Club. We form pairs and each donate all of our Perk KP into our partner's favoured Wonder. When the KP invested in the AW reaches the optimum point (total required kp minus the combined value of all reward chests) the owner launches loan club (i.e. requests FW members to match each of the chests) and starts favouriting another chest. The partner places (additional to perk KP) the value of the top chest. [There are obviously variations of this to deal with different numbers of participants etc.)

It is obviously easy to incorporate perk KP into swap threads (e.g. by having a swap thread just for perk kp).

 

[DeletedUser6472]

Most members in both of my FSs are using KP swap threads, so daily free KP are just incorporated into normal daily use of KP threads. A couple of people, that don't use KP threads, are swapping free kp between themselves.

 

[Far Reach]

The difference between the two systems is so small it is hardly worth discussing. The systems look different from the outside, but the KP benefit produced for the FS is exactly the same as long as all the KP donated come from within the FS.
Since both systems are designed to keep outsiders out of the FS wonders that is the most common case. But in case there are outside donations the swap threads have a small advantage as they fully benefit from outside donations, while net0, looses most KP donated from outside. The benfit of net0 is that it takes less messages to fill an AW. But in the end the differences are insignificant and it is pure personal preference which one to go with.

I doubt that many people are going to change their mind (about which system they prefer) but for the sake of accuracy:

The difference between the two systems is so small it is hardly worth discussing. The systems look different from the outside, but the KP benefit produced for the FS is exactly the same as long as all the KP donated come from within the FS.

This isn't strictly true. For the KP benefit of swap threads to be (asymptotically) as good as net0 (which is optimum), we need all of the reward chests to be won by the fellowship. That requires (up to) 8 different players to return swaps into each wonder before it is filled. In many fellowships that doesn't happen.

Since both systems are designed to keep outsiders out of the FS wonders that is the most common case.

The purpose of net0/Loan Club isn't to keep outsiders out. Interlopers which put in kp before the final chest matching stage are often beneficial for the fellowship (since the final chest matching stage means that they will often overpay for or miss out on chests - resulting in free kp for the Wonder owner). The only way that interlopers can cost the FW kp is if they donate a problematic amount during the chest matching, and even then the risk to the fellowship is typically low. (Even with perfect timing, the interloper's maximum profit is usually 2kp.) In my fellowship, the completion of the chest matching is quick (typically a couple of hours) and the amount of kp lost as a result of interlopers across thousands of Loan Club wonder levels has been tiny.

Interlopers are much more of a concern when using Swap Threads which is why it is important for the FW to fill or overfill all of the available reward chests.

But in the end the differences are insignificant and it is pure personal preference which one to go with.

There are of course a few other advantages and disadvantages. Swap threads work best if lots of fellows are levelling their wonders at a similar rate. If this isn't happening then various problems can ensure. It also doesn't guarantee that the value of reward chests is returned equally to the Fellowship - and indeed it can be gamed by Fellows for selfish benefit. Loan Club/Net0 requires an active and involved FW (to complete the chest matching quickly) and does also require a bit more calculation by those completing Wonders (especially when taking account of interlopers pre chest matching).

 

[Silly Bubbles]

At least part of my Fellowship is using a way of incorporating KP sharing into Net0/Loan Club. We form pairs and each donate all of our Perk KP into our partner's favoured Wonder. When the KP invested in the AW reaches the optimum point (total required kp minus the combined value of all reward chests) the owner launches loan club (i.e. requests FW members to match each of the chests) and starts favouriting another chest. The partner places (additional to perk KP) the value of the top chest. [There are obviously variations of this to deal with different numbers of participants etc.)

It is obviously easy to incorporate perk KP into swap threads (e.g. by having a swap thread just for perk kp).

So it's roughly same as before except that the chest matching process is now more gradual and starts earlier than before. The final result of matching the exact chest KP value is the same unless fellows want to give each other extras if they like to do so same as before.
What I don't fully understand why there's a need for pairing up, there should be enough free chests in the fellowship to fill in without a need to give any extras. Each fellow can pick a chest whichever they like and match the chest KPs and once they're done move on to someone else's chest. If the AW is ready before the chest KPs are matched then they can use instants or other KPs to fill it up to the correct value.

 

[Far Reach]

So it's roughly same as before except that the chest matching process is now more gradual and starts earlier than before. The final result of matching the exact chest KP value is the same unless fellows want to give each other extras if they like to do so same as before.

I might not have explained this well.

The perk KP isn't intended to match a chest - it acts exactly as though the Wonder owner had placed it themselves into their own wonder. For example:

Player A has a level 4 Blooming Trader (350kp needed, chests are 20/15/10/10/5/5).
Without perk KP player A would place 285 kp into the wonder and then ask fellows to match the remaining chests. (I'm ignoring interlopers for simplicity.)
In this scheme Player B is paired with A and puts all of his perk KP into the Blooming Trader Wonder. Now as soon as the total of A and B's kps reaches the magic 285 mark, A asks B to put in the amount of the top chest (20kp) from his non-perk kp stocks. Then A asks the rest of the FW for loans matching for the remaining chests as before. B gets 20kp back, but doesn't get any rewards for his perk kp.

What I don't fully understand why there's a need for pairing up, there should be enough free chests in the fellowship to fill in without a need to give any extras. Each fellow can pick a chest whichever they like and match the chest KPs and once they're done move on to someone else's chest. If the AW is ready before the chest KPs are matched then they can use instants or other KPs to fill it up to the correct value.

At the moment there may be enough chests, but by the time the Knowledge Sharing perk is maxed, each fellow will have 70kp per week to share. For the fellowship to generate enough chests, each player will need to be investing an average of around 400kp per week in their wonders. There could be other problems too: All of the kp needs to be donated as a chunk too which will be a problem for 5kp chests. Some co-ordination will be required also to prevent fellows trying to claim the same chest at the same time. The scheme describes eliminates all of these problems.

 

[DeletedUser6472]

So it's roughly same as before except that the chest matching process is now more gradual and starts earlier than before. The final result of matching the exact chest KP value is the same unless fellows want to give each other extras if they like to do so same as before.
What I don't fully understand why there's a need for pairing up, there should be enough free chests in the fellowship to fill in without a need to give any extras. Each fellow can pick a chest whichever they like and match the chest KPs and once they're done move on to someone else's chest. If the AW is ready before the chest KPs are matched then they can use instants or other KPs to fill it up to the correct value.

Because in Net0 not that many AWs are upgraded everyday. If you have 1 person upgrading AW per day, that's max 8 chests = 8 people will be able to use their free KP. As I mentioned before, Net0 is a very slow system and even in a very active FS, it's highly unlikely that 4 AWs can be upgraded per day, which you need for everyone to use their free daily KP.

 

[Pauly7]

I came to this thread about a month late, it seems. However, I am not sure what there is to debate. @FieryArien listed the reasons why NetZero struggles, because people don't understand it right, however for me it is worth persisting with, because there isn't much logical good reason for keep using swap chains.

The only good counter I've heard to NetZero is that some people just plain enjoy swap threads more. They find it more of a social experience. If that's the case then that is a personal preference and a playing style. That's what you like. However, in all cases of economics, NetZero is consistently better for everyone.

As has been talked about, the bonus chests are always 20% of the total KP value of the AW. So the total available discount that anyone has is 20%. With NetZero, everyone takes an exact 20% discount every time. It takes no thought, is much much easier, and doesn't ever go wrong. No one loses out.

Using swap threads... yes, it is possible for you to take home a bigger than 20% return, but I don't think everyone realises how difficult that is to do. If an AW is worth 1,000KP and (let's say) the top chest is worth 60KP. In order just to match the NetZero return, you are going to want to be the top donator to that AW, whilst making sure that you don't donate more than 300KP. At the same time, however, you need to make sure no other donators overtake you. That is always a possibility, even if you already donated that 300KP.

Maybe you can make that work some of the time. Maybe you can make that work quite often. If you do, however, you will not only be spending long amounts of time replying to swap threads and coming in and out of wonders to donate KP piece by piece, but you will be also spending quite a lot of time doing the maths and making sure you are donating the exact optimum amounts to any given AW.

Aaaand... even if you manage to do all this quite often and give yourself a pat on the back.... are you really happy with the fact that every victory you take means that other people in your own fellowship are being pushed down and are making less than 20% return? You can't have both.

Just as a side note: Swap threads are always awash with mistakes. These mistakes are sometimes picked up, but 90% are never spotted. People donate to the wrong wonders, the wrong person, the wrong amount, or not at all. If you spend some time doing some careful analysis of all AWs that are being put through swap chains, you will be surprised about how often it is messed up.

 

[Pauly7]

Yes the fellowship KP perk does put a little spanner in the works, but it can be fairly easily overcome.

 

[Silly Bubbles]

At the moment there may be enough chests, but by the time the Knowledge Sharing perk is maxed, each fellow will have 70kp per week to share. For the fellowship to generate enough chests, each player will need to be investing an average of around 400kp per week in their wonders. There could be other problems too: All of the kp needs to be donated as a chunk too which will be a problem for 5kp chests. Some co-ordination will be required also to prevent fellows trying to claim the same chest at the same time. The scheme describes eliminates all of these problems.

I think it might takes us a while to reach that level. I might keep it simple for the moment and just put it wherever I like. As long as I match the chest value before upgrade it should be fine.

I came to this thread about a month late, it seems. However, I am not sure what there is to debate. @FieryArien listed the reasons why NetZero struggles, because people don't understand it right, however for me it is worth persisting with, because there isn't much logical good reason for keep using swap chains.

The only good counter I've heard to NetZero is that some people just plain enjoy swap threads more. They find it more of a social experience. If that's the case then that is a personal preference and a playing style. That's what you like. However, in all cases of economics, NetZero is consistently better for everyone.

As has been talked about, the bonus chests are always 20% of the total KP value of the AW. So the total available discount that anyone has is 20%. With NetZero, everyone takes an exact 20% discount every time. It takes no thought, is much much easier, and doesn't ever go wrong. No one loses out.

Using swap threads... yes, it is possible for you to take home a bigger than 20% return, but I don't think everyone realises how difficult that is to do. If an AW is worth 1,000KP and (let's say) the top chest is worth 60KP. In order just to match the NetZero return, you are going to want to be the top donator to that AW, whilst making sure that you don't donate more than 300KP. At the same time, however, you need to make sure no other donators overtake you. That is always a possibility, even if you already donated that 300KP.

Maybe you can make that work some of the time. Maybe you can make that work quite often. If you do, however, you will not only be spending long amounts of time replying to swap threads and coming in and out of wonders to donate KP piece by piece, but you will be also spending quite a lot of time doing the maths and making sure you are donating the exact optimum amounts to any given AW.

Aaaand... even if you manage to do all this quite often and give yourself a pat on the back.... are you really happy with the fact that every victory you take means that other people in your own fellowship are being pushed down and are making less than 20% return? You can't have both.

Just as a side note: Swap threads are always awash with mistakes. These mistakes are sometimes picked up, but 90% are never spotted. People donate to the wrong wonders, the wrong person, the wrong amount, or not at all. If you spend some time doing some careful analysis of all AWs that are being put through swap chains, you will be surprised about how often it is messed up.

Fully agreed. What I love about it is less work, more fairness and some ability to choose runes.

 

[Turing]

To comment on some this, from the perspective of a FS who just changed to Net0...

I came to this thread about a month late, it seems. However, I am not sure what there is to debate. @FieryArien listed the reasons why NetZero struggles, because people don't understand it right, however for me it is worth persisting with, because there isn't much logical good reason for keep using swap chains.

I found it very easy to explain - with the exception of the values of the chests (purple 20, blue 5) which needed to be repeated. But one FS mail and we seemed to up and running with barely any other questions or comments.
I think we have one member who never understood the trains (certainly never used them), but has joined in right away on net0.

Using swap threads... yes, it is possible for you to take home a bigger than 20% return, but I don't think everyone realises how difficult that is to do. If an AW is worth 1,000KP and (let's say) the top chest is worth 60KP. In order just to match the NetZero return, you are going to want to be the top donator to that AW, whilst making sure that you don't donate more than 300KP. At the same time, however, you need to make sure no other donators overtake you. That is always a possibility, even if you already donated that 300KP.

Maybe you can make that work some of the time. Maybe you can make that work quite often. If you do, however, you will not only be spending long amounts of time replying to swap threads and coming in and out of wonders to donate KP piece by piece, but you will be also spending quite a lot of time doing the maths and making sure you are donating the exact optimum amounts to any given AW.

I think you are underestimating how easy it is. Any donation in the range 200-300kp is likely to be the top donor and get the 60kp chest, putting you ahead of the 20%. In my experience if you are the most active in your FS you're likely to get around 25%, maybe 30% return on your train donations without any planning at all; and could maybe push that higher if tactical.

Aaaand... even if you manage to do all this quite often and give yourself a pat on the back.... are you really happy with the fact that every victory you take means that other people in your own fellowship are being pushed down and are making less than 20% return? You can't have both.

Quite, which was why I pushed my FS to try net0. We had quite a few who had given up on the trains. I'm not sure if it was because they were a nuisance or they got few rewards, or a combination. But pretty much everyone is now involved.