KP Swap Threads vs Chest Matching (Net0)

[Silly Bubbles]

I’d just like to bring up this topic to clarify the advantages and disadvantages of each system. At this moment, swap threads seem to be a popular go to choice and there are players that aren’t aware of advantages of chest matching. By chest matching I mean that whoever is close to finishing their AW lets the FS know and other fellows donate KPs to exactly match the KPs needed for each chest offered in the AW so the fellow can get full advantage from the chests. I find this system better as I see it much less work and more fair but I do understand that others prefer KPs threads.

I just would love to know the reasons why fellowship choose one or the other method or why do you prefer one method over the other so players understand that both are good systems not just KP swap threads.

 

[FieryArien]

From my personal experience there are two problems with net0 / chest matching / 20% off / loan system / I’m sure there is even more names:

1. It’s hard to explain. Once a player gets it, it’s hard to understand why it was so difficult. However, for some reason, people really struggle to truly understand the idea. The swap threads system is much easier to explain, it’s just easy repetitive task you perform over and over again.
2. I’ve heard it called “selfish” compared to swap system. It probably comes from not fully getting the idea behind the system. This argument says, that people using swap threads are “giving all their KP away”, while net0 users “just upgrade their wonder and then ask for KPs”. (Nonsense, but as I said, understanding of both systems is needed to dispute it.)
3. There’s actually a third one: chests values. Extremely difficult to explain the instants icons to some people. For this one I totally blame InnoGames.

 

[DeletedUser501]

I’d just like to bring up this topic to clarify the advantages and disadvantages of each system. At this moment, swap threads seem to be a popular go to choice and there are players that aren’t aware of advantages of chest matching. By chest matching I mean that whoever is close to finishing their AW lets the FS know and other fellows donate KPs to exactly match the KPs needed for each chest offered in the AW so the fellow can get full advantage from the chests. I find this system better as I see it much less work and more fair but I do understand that others prefer KPs threads.

I just would love to know the reasons why fellowship choose one or the other method or why do you prefer one method over the other so players understand that both are good systems not just KP swap threads.

Besides FieryArien points, that system is the very less efficient one, cause in the moment a player adds his own KP in its own AW you´re losing KP that in other manner you would have used it in another player AW and winning with this some chests besides having all the KP you have invested back in your AW via Swap Threads.
Adding your own KP in your AWs and then allow your fellows to add exactly the quantity of KP they will get from the chests in your targeted AW is not efficient at all, waste of KP in my point of viewing.

 

[Heymrdiedier]

not sure why we bring this up again. Feels like theres been many threads about this on all forum already.

Besides FieryArien points, that system is the very less efficient one, cause in the moment a player adds his own KP in its own AW you´re losing KP that in other manner you would have used it in another player AW and winning with this some chests besides having all the KP you have invested back in your AW via Swap Threads.
Adding your own KP in your AWs and then allow your fellows to add exactly the quantity of KP they will get from the chests in your targeted AW is not efficient at all, waste of KP in my point of viewing.

If you fill your wonder with netzero, you will get a 20% discount on levelling your wonder. If you use a kp swap thread, you still have to spend 500kp if you want to level a 500kp wonder. If you are lucky, you will get some kp instants back, but for the same luck you get nothin at all back. The kp swap threads benefit those who spend more kp (more chance to get a chest, for example endgamers) while players who are currently advancing in tech spend less kp and have less chance on getting kp instants back.

I compare the 2 systems as capitalism vs socialism. In swap threads the poor (few kp) help the rich get even richer (capitalism) while in netzero everyone get the same 20% discount (socialism)

 

[DeletedUser501]

not sure why we bring this up again. Feels like theres been many threads about this on all forum already.



If you fill your wonder with netzero, you will get a 20% discount on levelling your wonder. If you use a kp swap thread, you still have to spend 500kp if you want to level a 500kp wonder. If you are lucky, you will get some kp instants back, but for the same luck you get nothin at all back. The kp swap threads benefit those who spend more kp (more chance to get a chest, for example endgamers) while players who are currently advancing in tech spend less kp and have less chance on getting kp instants back.

Where it comes those extra 20%?
I don´t get how a little account could be benefited by this system spending his own KP in his own AWs, is just none sense and waste of KP.
If swap threads are not fit for this little account then they could very easily use "Wonder society system" (a much better system then Net0) to have a better efficiency and be really benefited, since his KP would mean something in terms of "balance", in contrast with Net0 this little account just will waste his KP and the fellows taking his chests would get exactly nothing.

I don´t see the logic behind this Net0, just a waste of kp and inefficient system.

I compare the 2 systems as capitalism vs socialism. In swap threads the poor (few kp) help the rich get even richer (capitalism) while in netzero everyone get the same 20% discount (socialism)

No, not at all. Little accounts from 3th-7th chapter can KP hunt, participate in tournament and win KP, or buy diamonds that could put them in a better position of KP income from those above them in chapter/city development (I talk from a experience position here).
Bigger cities would only get more KP income if they tourney harder than those little accounts, and what I´ve seen is that many big cities play at the same level of many little cities, many many times.

And now that you´re talking about socialism, NOT THANKS!

 

[Turing]

@OP - we use trains. I looked recently at trying to get us to switch to net0. What put me off is that this was just after the FS perks was appearing on beta - and I don't really see how net0 can operate smoothly when everyone has a few random KP to donate each day.

Where it comes those extra 20%?
I don´t get how a little account could be benefited by this system spending his own KP in his own AWs, is just none sense and waste of KP.
If swap threads are not fit for this little account then they could very easily use "Wonder society system" (a much better system then Net0) to have a better efficiency and be really benefited, since his KP would mean something in terms of "balance", in contrast with Net0 this little account just will waste his KP and the fellows taking his chests would get exactly nothing.

I don´t see the logic behind this Net0, just a waste of kp and inefficient system.

His benefit is that he is given donations totalling 20% of his AW for free - not requiring any specific return donation. That's the point of net0 - the benefit isn't in donation; the benefit comes on receiving - and it's always 20% of the upgrade cost, so everyone benefits equally. With trains the KP in the chests in concentrated in the top few chests, so the most active players get most of the benefits. Players putting less KP in the trains may be pushed off the bottom and get no benefit from the train whatsoever.

For anything economic it's often more helpful to look at the total rather than individuals. Imagine we don't care who gets what, and are just interested in the total for the FS. Assuming the FS manages to claim all chests (donates enough to stop outsides sniping any), then the total KP earned by the FS is fixed at 20% of the upgrade cost. It doesn't matter what system you use: trains, wonder society, net0 - the size of the chests is always 20% of the upgrade cost and it goes to someone in the FS.

So there cannot be any difference between the system in the total benefits. The differences are in how simple the system is to operate (Wonder Society is far, but creates extra admin), or how fairly the FS's benefits are distributed between members. With trains the benefits are erratic. With net0 everyone gains a 20% discount off the cost of their AW upgrades, so it's fairer. If you're looking at the size of the benefit you've missed the point already: the benefit to the overall FS is fixed. If you're seeing a bigger benefit to an individual in one system, that can only be at the expense of someone else in the FS losing out.

 

[Heymrdiedier]

Where it comes those extra 20%?
I don´t get how a little account could be benefited by this system spending his own KP in his own AWs, is just none sense and waste of KP.
If swap threads are not fit for this little account then they could very easily use "Wonder society system" (a much better system then Net0) to have a better efficiency and be really benefited, since his KP would mean something in terms of "balance", in contrast with Net0 this little account just will waste his KP and the fellows taking his chests would get exactly nothing.

I don´t see the logic behind this Net0, just a waste of kp and inefficient system.

To level a wonder of 1000kp, you will only need to put 800kp in yourself, and the 200 other kp will come from other players who put it in, and get the same amount of kp back that they put in.
So you get a 20% discount on your own wonder.

If i spend 1000kp by spending 10 times 10kp a week, then i will most likely not get any reward chests back (except if i only focus on 1 player instead of all 24 of my fellows) so to level my own wonder, i will have spend 1000kp in the AW of other people.

So 1000kp spent vs 800kp is 20% discount.

Ofcourse if i spend 1000kp in 1 week, I might get 400kp back from chests of other players, giving me more bonus, while others get none.

So there cannot be any difference between the system in the total benefits. The differences are in how simple the system is to operate (Wonder Society is far, but creates extra admin), or how fairly the FS's benefits are distributed between members. With trains the benefits are erratic. With net0 everyone gains a 20% discount off the cost of their AW upgrades, so it's fairer. If you're looking at the size of the benefit you've missed the point already: the benefit to the overall FS is fixed. If you're seeing a bigger benefit to an individual in one system, that can only be at the expense of someone else in the FS losing out.

Im not sure i totally agree that there is no difference in total benefits. When a new player levels his wonders faster, he gets more benefits from that wonder then when an endgame player just gets another level. And while the kp in the FS as whole remains the same, the gains from those kp are different upon situation. So by using the wonder chains, you kinda slow down your low level players, and speed up your end game players.

I have been one of those end game players for years who was usually in top 10 of tournament, meaning i got a lot more kp then my fellows, and meaning I put a lot more kp in the wonder chains, and benefiting from it hugely. I did it not realise i was hurting my new players in the fellowship until i heard about the netzero. And i still kinda feel guilty about that (eventhough by now i trashed some of those wonder because the tournament got too expensive with too many wonders)

 

[FieryArien]

What put me off is that this was just after the FS perks was appearing on beta - and I don't really see how net0 can operate smoothly when everyone has a few random KP to donate each day.

It can’t. Perks are really killing net0 system. Neither trains (swap threads) nor Wonder society are (significantly) affected by that perk, but net0 is really crippled by it.

Btw thanks for your explanation from whole fellowship’s perspective. It’s a nice one from yet another angle.

 

[DeletedUser501]

@OP - we use trains. I looked recently at trying to get us to switch to net0. What put me off is that this was just after the FS perks was appearing on beta - and I don't really see how net0 can operate smoothly when everyone has a few random KP to donate each day.



His benefit is that he is given donations totalling 20% of his AW for free - not requiring any specific return donation. That's the point of net0 - the benefit isn't in donation; the benefit comes on receiving - and it's always 20% of the upgrade cost, so everyone benefits equally. With trains the KP in the chests in concentrated in the top few chests, so the most active players get most of the benefits. Players putting less KP in the trains may be pushed off the bottom and get no benefit from the train whatsoever.

I know that, but my question was about the donors, because for a system to be fair and useful, it must be dynamic and benefit all the participants not only one person, that 20% will come from players that would not receive nothing in return, and the player that will get that help of KP will invest all his KP in his own AW creating with this a lack of interaction in terms of KP with other fellows.
Besides that, the person that use this, must to find people that is available to fill all that loaning quantity of KP at a specific moment. For example if a certain AW requires 2000 KP to be filled, and one chest requieres 85 KP to be taken by someone, another 70kp and another 65kp many few people will be interested in adding that, in that specific moment to receive nothing in return.
This is not a fair, dynamic and fellowship interactive system, and as fieryarien said, it looks more as a selfish system, contrary at what what in principle a fs must be.

For anything economic it's often more helpful to look at the total rather than individuals. Imagine we don't care who gets what, and are just interested in the total for the FS. Assuming the FS manages to claim all chests (donates enough to stop outsides sniping any), then the total KP earned by the FS is fixed at 20% of the upgrade cost. It doesn't matter what system you use: trains, wonder society, net0 - the size of the chests is always 20% of the upgrade cost and it goes to someone in the FS.

Yes, that´s th entire value in percentage of the KP received in chests in every AWs not matter at what level this is.

So there cannot be any difference between the system in the total benefits. The differences are in how simple the system is to operate (Wonder Society is far, but creates extra admin), or how fairly the FS's benefits are distributed between members. With trains the benefits are erratic. With net0 everyone gains a 20% discount off the cost of their AW upgrades, so it's fairer. If you're looking at the size of the benefit you've missed the point already: the benefit to the overall FS is fixed. If you're seeing a bigger benefit to an individual in one system, that can only be at the expense of someone else in the FS losing out.

-The benefits are not erratic, they are fair, you get what you can get, be this by how good you´re in the in-game (kp hunt, tournament, MA), and also how good you´re to distribute your KP in the swap threads.
-Net0 is complicated to use by the participants, it depends a lot of none adding more of what is require (cause if some adds 1 kp and surpass a player donor, all the calculation fail and the system fail at all).
-Net0 stop fellowship interaction, it only works for the players that fill their own AW and are not interested in any kind of interaction with the fellowship. It is curious how this system is used exactly by players (in my experienced) that do minimun in tournament, and never and rarely interact with fellowship in general.

 

[DeletedUser501]

This system in fact is liked more by those who likes socialism, cause in this particular system one can never get more of what he gets.
For example, if a whole fellowship would use this system only, and all participants would fill their own AWs (besides this being anti-interactive) NO MATTER how many KP you´re getting, not matter how good you are in terms of tournament, of how many diamonds you´ve spent to spin MA recipes to get more KP, you will only, ALWAYS will be having the same KP you´re putting in your FS AWs, NOT ADVANCING, NOT PROGRESSING, you will always be attached to that extra 20% and anything you get from there (kp hunting, tournament, etc) would mean nothing in the benefit you´ll get from belonging to a fellowship. It will stagnate all the players, cause you´ll be always attached to certain position in the chests, and not benefit at all from them.
Yes, as Heyrmdiedier said, this system is socialism. A manner to limit player performance.

 

[OldHag]

Perks are really killing net0 system. Neither trains (swap threads) nor Wonder society are (significantly) affected by that perk, but net0 is really crippled by it.

I haven't looked at the perks - no idea what they include, but how do you think this will effect 0 sums?

 

[DeletedUser6472]

The most important difference is the speed at which people in a FS with KP swap threads complete their AWs vs FS with net0 (Loan Club). Imho this great element is overlooked by an argument of "fairness". I encourage everyone to participate in KP swap system and since we are getting high tournament scores, all of us get a lot of KP. In this system you gain something and lose something, but overall everyone gains something, because constantly someone's AW is completed and participants get their rewards, that they can reinvest into KP swap system straight away, making kp threads moving fast. Additionally, all chests are claimed by members of the FS and all intruders are squeezed out of rewards. I think that in support of my argument you can look at AW stats on elvenstats. My FS on EN2 server InSpire League is the best example. We have most people participating in KP swap system and on average, our number of AWs is higher than those FS's that use net0 system.

 

[EdwardTrunk]

KP swap threads get my vote. Can't be doing with either Net0 or the hugely over-engineered Wonder Society. To each their own I guess.

 

[FieryArien]

To emphasize: use what you want people. It doesn’t affect me anyhow if you use swaps, net0, wonder society or even something else. Each of these systems is “the best” for some fellowships. I’d love it, if the decision was an informed decision, though. Meaning you’d actually understand these systems. However, I realize it’s neither easy nor quick to achieve.

as fieryarien said, it looks more as a selfish system, contrary at what what in principle a fs must be.

Please read my post again, I said that it looks selfish to people who don’t understand the system (yet).

Personally, to me, it’s the swap system what looks selfish. It’s harmful to the small players who don’t have so many provinces, who are not tech-locked, who don’t have all those sets and evo-buildings giving KPs. They are participating in the swap threads, but they are constantly being pushed down to the low positions, getting few or no KPs back.

-The benefits are not erratic, they are fair, you get what you can get, be this by how good you´re in the in-game (kp hunt, tournament, MA), and also how good you´re to distribute your KP in the swap threads.

(The above is you response to swap system critique, but I’m choosing it because of your arguments in general.) From what I’m reading in your posts, it seems to me that your main problem with net0 is that you can’t get more KP out of your investment than someone else. In such case of course net0 isn’t for you. The idea behind net0 is that each end every player gets 20% discount on each and every wonder they build. No extra bonus for anyone, the same percentage discount for everyone. It doesn’t matter what you build: a 1000 KP wonder gets 200 points discount, a 100 KP wonder gets 20 KP discount. It doesn’t cost anything, because players providing the discount get all their KPs back.

In the swap system you have people who get more than 20% discount and people who get less than 20% discount (invested KPs vs. gained chests). You call it skill and see it as a good thing (because you gave more effort into choosing which swap threads you participate in) I call it unfair and see it as harmful to the fellowship (because for me it feels wrong to take advantage of people in my fellowship).


Anyway, I’ve got a practical question for dedicated swap threads players. How do you deal with the income from tournaments? I played the whole tournament within about half an hour and I can’t imagine how would I push all those KPs through the swap threads, because it’s simply too much in too short time period. For net0 and wonder society it isn’t a problem, but how is it with swap threads??

 

[Alcaro]

I used swap threads and I think it's the option that favors the big spenders while the little ones get zero.
I am using Net0 in Beta and the positive side is that I don't have to keep tracking donations, if I got back or not what I've donated, also using Net0 gives you a benefit of 20% from those who are donating the amount =chest value. What I don't like is that it's a pain in the rear once you have an outsider or someone mistakenly gave some extra or 2 players donated simultaneous the same amount. Starts to be a nuisance once the KP Perks are active. Bottom line - I do not like it either.
In my FS we use Wonder Society system and IMHO is the best of all 3 options.

Anyway, I’ve got a practical question for dedicated swap threads players. How do you deal with the income from tournaments? I played the whole tournament within about half an hour and I can’t imagine how would I push all those KPs through the swap threads, because it’s simply too much in too short time period. For net0 and wonder society it isn’t a problem, but how is it with swap threads??

The FS must have a thread for big donations. My previous FSs had 60 KP Swap threads, beside the usual 30, 20 and 10 KPs. But in the days with high income of KPs from tourny, with all that frenzy exchange, mistakes started to happen and was a tedious process to compensate the right player.

 

[FieryArien]

I haven't looked at the perks - no idea what they include, but how do you think this will effect 0 sums?

Over there is my reply. I think I can’t continue beta discussion here.

 

[DeletedUser501]

Please read my post again, I said that it looks selfish to people who don’t understand the system (yet).

Personally, to me, it’s the swap system what looks selfish. It’s harmful to the small players who don’t have so many provinces, who are not tech-locked, who don’t have all those sets and evo-buildings giving KPs. They are participating in the swap threads, but they are constantly being pushed down to the low positions, getting few or no KPs back.

- Yes it is kinda selfish, but anyone can use at their will, that´s makes so great having the freedom to choose what´s best for you.
- Little cities can compete and even win in tournament score to big cities, this is traducted at the end in same amounts of KP income for both of them, so nothing unfair for little cities in this aspect.
Beyond that, little cities can KP hunt (which is the case of many well know players I´ve met in this game) that can get around 2000 KP every week just kp hunting, having much more developed AWs than many cities that are in the 17/18/19 chapter.
So nothing unfairness here, everyone has its luck, and have to pay the price that anyone pays to get a strong AW developed city.
The unfairness comes when, in the case of this Net0 system, you have to limit the amounts players can get from fellow AWs chests to help cities that are not that dynamic or are lazy to progress.

(The above is you response to swap system critique, but I’m choosing it because of your arguments in general.) From what I’m reading in your posts, it seems to me that your main problem with net0 is that you can’t get more KP out of your investment than someone else. In such case of course net0 isn’t for you. The idea behind net0 is that each end every player gets 20% discount on each and every wonder they build. No extra bonus for anyone, the same percentage discount for everyone. It doesn’t matter what you build: a 1000 KP wonder gets 200 points discount, a 100 KP wonder gets 20 KP discount. It doesn’t cost anything, because players providing the discount get all their KPs back.

That´s called socialism.
That´s why this system is so bad, and besides that exact point, it limits like totally, the FS interaction, at least at the aspect of KP exchanging, and it could be ruined with ease if a outsider decides to take some chests of yours.

In the swap system you have people who get more than 20% discount and people who get less than 20% discount (invested KPs vs. gained chests). You call it skill and see it as a good thing (because you gave more effort into choosing which swap threads you participate in) I call it unfair and see it as harmful to the fellowship (because for me it feels wrong to take advantage of people in my fellowship).

Anyone get the amount they deserve to get, if they are lazy, don´t KP hunt, and just waits for the weekly tournament awards they will get low amounts of KP, so they must improve their playing skills so they can trade better in terms of KP swapping and get the chance to get extra chests. To me that´s called justice.

Anyway, I’ve got a practical question for dedicated swap threads players. How do you deal with the income from tournaments? I played the whole tournament within about half an hour and I can’t imagine how would I push all those KPs through the swap threads, because it’s simply too much in too short time period. For net0 and wonder society it isn’t a problem, but how is it with swap threads??

Because does exist 100, 50, 30, and so on swap threads?

I get around 900 KP due to tourney, and another 800 KP due to KP hunting every week, if I wanted all that KP ended up in all my fellows AWs that same week, and I could upgrade 3-4 AWs every week if I wanted, but at these moments I´m not in that need since I almost get all the important AWs I need for tournament fully upgraded, so that speed is not that require in my case.
But yeah, swap threads are really fast when the fellowship you´re in are commited to be good.

 

[DeletedUser501]

For net0 and wonder society it isn’t a problem, but how is it with swap threads??

Anecdotically in the only FS where WS system was used almost by all, was the one where I upgrade my AWs in a enormous period of time, it was so slow that I was upgrading 2 AWs per week, then when I left and joined a FS that was using again KP swap threads I could, at last, spend all the huge amounts of KP I got in stock. So in my isolated experience, KP swap threads have been the faster manner to upgrade as many AWs level as I can per week.

 

[Turing]

This system in fact is liked more by those who likes socialism, cause in this particular system one can never get more of what he gets.
For example, if a whole fellowship would use this system only, and all participants would fill their own AWs (besides this being anti-interactive) NO MATTER how many KP you´re getting, not matter how good you are in terms of tournament, of how many diamonds you´ve spent to spin MA recipes to get more KP, you will only, ALWAYS will be having the same KP you´re putting in your FS AWs, NOT ADVANCING, NOT PROGRESSING, you will always be attached to that extra 20% and anything you get from there (kp hunting, tournament, etc) would mean nothing in the benefit you´ll get from belonging to a fellowship. It will stagnate all the players, cause you´ll be always attached to certain position in the chests, and not benefit at all from them.
Yes, as Heyrmdiedier said, this system is socialism. A manner to limit player performance.

Not true. The more that you put into your own AW, the more that your FS will give you in addition. If you get hundreds from hunting, your FS will add 25% to those hunted KP. (Actually net0 can help if very active, because if you're VERY active you're likely to overwhelm the trains in most FS, and then get no benefit, whereas net0 will give you +25% on all your KP, even if it's thousands per day)

Anyway, I’ve got a practical question for dedicated swap threads players. How do you deal with the income from tournaments? I played the whole tournament within about half an hour and I can’t imagine how would I push all those KPs through the swap threads, because it’s simply too much in too short time period. For net0 and wonder society it isn’t a problem, but how is it with swap threads??

It is a problem with swap threads - they are fixed size and don't accommodate either small OR large amounts. By small, I mean if I can't do research because I'm stuck on portal stuff, and have 7kp in my bar in the evening, I can't just put it into the kp system. We have a 5kp train, so I can put 5kp in there - the other 2 can't go in there. And for large, as Dunkel says you can have 100kp etc trains. The actual limit rather depends on your FS and activity, but I don't think anyone has systems that will take more than about 200kp at once - which would cope with 1 tourney round of 50 provinces. If doing more than that (especially if doing the entire tourney at once with a max timewarp), you're going to be stuck. And many FS will have trains that can hold less than 200kp. In practice trains will cope for most people, but not everyone all the time

Personally if I've flooded the train I'm just donating the rest to myself - or maybe playing the 1kp game with some of it (which will then trickle back in as 5kp instants during the week).

It is an advantage of both WS and net0 that they can accept a (near) infinite input of KP at any time. (OK WS is limited, but with reserves it can be thousands)

 

[DeletedUser501]

Not true. The more that you put into your own AW, the more that your FS will give you in addition. If you get hundreds from hunting, your FS will add 25% to those hunted KP. (Actually net0 can help if very active, because if you're VERY active you're likely to overwhelm the trains in most FS, and then get no benefit, whereas net0 will give you +25% on all your KP, even if it's thousands per day)

- Why would I put 1000 KP in my own AW if I could put 1000 kp in my FS AWs and get hundreds of KP in the chests of those AWs?
- Yes, you´re attached to only that "advantage of 20%", but nothing more than that, and if some of your fellows use other system of KP exchanging, or just don´t like it, or don´t wanted help you, those chests of 80, 70, 65 kp would not be taken until some of your fellows want to help you with that.
- The best manners to invest your KP if you´re a very active player are: KP hunting, Swap threads and WS system. Loan system is a manner to stagnate progression and limit players to get more KP from fellow AWs.