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Discussion July 2022 Fellowship Adventure - Feedback

GSV3MiaC

Adventurer
And if, as mooted upthread, it was, an unintended / accidental release how about an official announcement and apology, to the 99% of players who get inno's marketing fluff but don't visit the forum. The silence is deafening. Everyone can screw up, that's what beta releases are for, but fess up, and fix it, don't just hide under a rock and hope nobody notices.
 

Jake65

Sorcerer
ok INNO..you have killed the FA...who wants to play and compete in a game that you can never finish..yes, its just a game..but is it...so many of us play to compete and have fun...and this game means a lot to us..not only for the friends we have made, but for the fun of playing. We all look forward to the FA, getting finished, getting in the top 10...achieving the goals......so WELL DONE...you have killed it stone dead, and as for the final rewards....LOLOLOLOLOL....beyond anyones reach now.......WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP.....and congrats to whoever decided that Elvenor should hit the dust......
"Coin sacks killed the FA by far"
Sung to the tune of "video killed the radio star"
My pleasure for the ear worm :D
 

Kwiver

Dreamer
"Coin sacks killed the FA by far"
Sung to the tune of "video killed the radio star"
My pleasure for the ear worm :D
"You tested beta back in June of ‘22
There was no mention of the changes - how could you!?
If they’re intentional, then INNO shame on you
Oh oh

Both coins and bracelets now are making history
All FA plans have suddenly gone up the tree
Its getting sad how little devs listen to thee

Oh-a
Treating us like children
Oh-a
Its time we show them

Coin sacks killed the FA by far
Coin sacks killed the FA by far
INNO came and broke our hearts
Oh-a-a-a"


Someone else can write the second verse ;-)
 
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Jake65

Sorcerer
@Kwiver, love this, it's brilliant, thank you :D
 

Sir Derf

Mentor
My Fellowship is a no pressure, not full group. We had only 16 fellows placing badges on Maps 1 and 2. We're about half-way through the FA in play-time, and are currently on Map 3. We are going Green-Green-Green with all Crossovers, and are currently sitting on G3 waiting on Sacks and Blacksmiths. By my accounting we have paid 73 sacks so far, with 65 left to go. This seems very reasonable to accomplish, looking to ask for about 4 sacks per player over the rest of the FA. I admit, this is harder than before, but I don't believe they have "killed the FA". It's definitely nowhere near being "a game you can't finish".

If a semi-populated Fellowship of semi-motivated, semi-organized players can be on track for a middle-of-the-road 138-sack 3-Map completion, it sure seems to me that a populated, motivated, organized Fellowship should be capable of 361 sack all Map sweep; that's only 14.4 sacks / player, 2.4 sacks / day. If that's even what you consider necessary.

A part of what makes me chuckle at this is that, for the most part, city decisions and preparations you might have made to focus production on Necklaces, Bracelets and Statues, or Blacksmiths, Farmers, etc, or even Spells and CC, they aren't made to the detriment of your ability to make Sacks. That this was sprung on us without warning really didn't change what we would have prepped.
 

Pauly7

Magus
I admit, this is harder than before, but I don't believe they have "killed the FA". It's definitely nowhere near being "a game you can't finish".
The question is more to do with what, exactly, has or hasn't been killed.

If you are doing a single path to get the 'rewards', then sure, it is fine. Tougher, but fine. If a team is attempting to just complete all map waypoints then the same applies, albeit harder than the single paths. (To be honest, I am not sure what the point of this option is).

The problem is for those teams who are trying to compete to win the FA. Those teams are all looking to produce 1000-2000 of every badge. You can say that it is the same for everyone, but I also know that there are always one or two teams who are willing to spend every resource, diamond and even real money, making sure that their total of coin sacks keeps up with all the others. So for all others that aren't willing to go through quite such catastrophic hits, then they will need to back off.

We won an FA before last Christmas and I am glad we did it then, because I know that we won't be prepared to do the extra that is now necessary to try to win the competition, compared to those that will do whatever is necessary.

So I would argue that this competition has been killed, even though the cost of coin badges is only one part of it. You may say that this only applies to a small number of fellowships, but I say the whole point of FA should be to try to win. That is the game.
 

Sir Derf

Mentor
Oh, the noes...

You'll have to back off...
You'll have to do less...

Oh, the noes...

The game has changed and I have to change how I play the game...

The change hasn't broken the FA, it has broken your current strategy for the FA.

You want to be competitve? So, continue to be competitive... Work out the adjustments to your long-term city layout, your short-term (shantytown) layout, your pre-FA preparations and mid-FA game play. What have you already been doing to improve your production of the other badges? What did you do to get more Bracelets? More Statues and Blacksmiths? More Spells and CCs?

  • Produce more Coins
    • Invest in high-efficiency Coin producers.
    • Max out and frequently visit your Golden Abyss.
    • Build shantytowns of temporary coin producers.
    • Do Full-Map NH rounds. Use the browser's Neighbor's tab of the Provinces window; at some point it has been fixed and is really efficient in time.
    • Coordinate with Fellows to NH Main Halls sequentially while you can individually collect each NH reward.
    • Increase your Culture Bonus
      • Build more high Culture buildings for buffing.
      • Encourage Neighbors (and Fellows) to buff Culture buildings.
      • Use and improve Ensorcelled Endowments.
  • Pre-build Coins
    • Delay collections before the FA begins.
    • Start upgrades requiring large amounts of coins before the FA starts that you can cancel to get the Coins back.
    • Build high-cost buildings before the FA starts that you can sell to get Coins back.
  • Collect Coin instants in the down time between FAs.
  • Adjust your NH timing so you can get 7 rounds of NH over the course of the FA.

That's what I could come up with off the top of my head. I don't know which NH approach for Fellows is best; I guess it depends on what your Coins production and Culture buildings are, as to if Culture Boost gives more Coins production than NH Main Hall rewards. Are there buildings or instances where Time Boosts can be used to produce more Coins? Are there other things.
 

GSV3MiaC

Adventurer
Those are reasonable suggestion Sir Derf, but most of them require advance notice of the changes (build and sell, build and cancel etc).. We didn't get any notice. We still have no official word if this is the way it was intended, and will be in future, or if it was a screwup and will be rolled back.
 

Alcaro

Illusionist
@Sir Derf
Visiting the freaking whole map + the FS it gives me about 1.4 Coin badge.
My 12 Magic residences do not give enough coins for 1 badge.
You can delay the collection of coins only "so much". As I said above, even having my Magic residences filled with coins, they do not give me a badge.
Asking in advance from NH help to polish the MH is also not really helpful. You are restricted by the capacity of your Main Hall. Once is full, you are going to lose the rest of the earned coins from polishing.
I collect the GA every 3 hours, except the night.
Everything else with "Pre-" would have been possible if we would have known that such a change will occur.

To answer to others about "why FSs would want to do more than 1 path/ stage?" is because of the secondary reward - Perk points. At least that is what our FS wants. But once those Perks fully upgraded, FA will be erased from our list of interests.
 

Sir Derf

Mentor
"Oh the noes" is meant as a signifier of sarcasm, for humorous intent.

I did then follow it up with actual, thoughtful commentary, and not just a complete diss.
 

Hekata

Summoner
@Sir Derf While your advice how to increase coins is good, the costs of a single badge are so high that the difference would be barely noticeable. Right now I can get about 2,5 sacks per day (includes: NH to all my neighbours + collecting from residences and quite a few event buildings that produce coins, with all culture buildings sprinkled with spells but not using instants, since none of my FS if pushing this FA). With all your changes I could maybe get to 3,5-4 sacks per day. It's definitely not enough to compete for top spots, not even close.

Plus, all the things you mention is what only the most dedicated players would do. Most other players, even those who like FA, find it annoying enough they have to clear half of their city to make shanty towns and not many will be willing to go to so much effort to get those coins. So as @Pauly7 said this kind of system would be the end of competing for most FS except the very few most dedicated ones.

Hopefully this is a mistake and we won't have to go through this annoyance again.

Your "sarcasm" not helping you get your point through, maybe avoid it next time.
 

Sir Derf

Mentor
I believe I did the math earlier... 361 Sacks for a all 3 Maps / 25 Fellows / 6 days = 2.4 sacks per Fellow per day. Above that, every little bit helps. And, given the tight margins, each little bit goes to that much better performance.

As to the Full Main Hall, well, that's what buying KPs is all about.
 

Sir Derf

Mentor
2.4 per day. If it is all so tight, then 3.5-4 sacks a day sure does sound like competing for top spots level. After all, everyone else should be having a tough time, too, yes?

Now, this might not be the style of play you like. It's too tight, too tough. Okay, fine. So, there is a limit to how much effort you want to put in to be competitive. That sounds like a you problem, not a me or INNO problem.

As to my use of humor, sarcasm, semi-pointless math... different strokes for different folks.
 

Sir Derf

Mentor
And now for my next probably unpopular opinion...

If this change causes Fellowships who were competitive at ranking in FAs to stop participating in FAs, sure sounds like this is a good time for Fellowships who want to be competitive at ranking in FAs; you will now have less competition at those better ranks...
 

Kwiver

Dreamer
2.4 per day. If it is all so tight, then 3.5-4 sacks a day sure does sound like competing for top spots level. After all, everyone else should be having a tough time, too, yes?

Now, this might not be the style of play you like. It's too tight, too tough. Okay, fine. So, there is a limit to how much effort you want to put in to be competitive. That sounds like a you problem, not a me or INNO problem.

As to my use of humor, sarcasm, semi-pointless math... different strokes for different folks.
This would be exactly my line of argument indeed, but it is not "to be competitive" - in my case it is merely wanting to have fun in a casual FS. And I agree - that definitely IS a me problem (and anyone else who materially does not like any change they make to a game that we otherwise enjoy) and indeed also is NOT a you problem (although I personally always try to listen for what I might be missing when lots of other folks seem to share a view that is in opposition to my own), but where I do disagree with you Sir D is that if enough people feel that way, then it does in fact become an INNO problem. The landscape is littered with the carcasses of games that ignored the views of their fanbases - or failed to observe the common, costless courtesy of communication.
 

Sir Derf

Mentor
Hmmm, putting my Semi-Pointless Math (tm) where my mouth is...

Bare in mind, this is all from my point of view. I am a days-from-Chapter 18 city, with my particular city size and design choices; your numbers may vary...

361 Sacks to clear all Maps / 25 Fellows = 14.44 Sacks / per player.
A FA lasts about 6 days, 6 hours, or 150 hours total.
Chapter 17, Sack requires 23,448k Coins.

  • High efficiency Coin production
    • Currently, I have 34 Residences and 9 Magic Residences, not all currently upgraded to max Chapter 17. L38 Res gives 16,914 coins/h = 2,537,100 Coins / FA = 10.8% of a Sack/FA. * 34 = 3.68 Sacks, 25.48% of FA goal. 4*L16 MR + 5*L17MR = (4*24,780 + 5*32,446) * 150 = 39,202,500 coins/FA, 1.67 Sacks, another 11.58% of FA goal. Combined, my current Residences and Magic Residences will produce 5.35 Sacks, 37.0% of FA goal.
    • If I updated to all L39 Res and L17 MR, I would earn 135,704,100 coins / FA, 5.78 Sacks, 40.1% of FA goal, a 3.1% improvement.
  • Golden Abyss
    • My Golden Abyss is Lvl31 (I should have stopped at 30, since I had only cared about Pop), and produces 5.2% of my L38 Main Hall, so produces 3,380k / 3 hours. With what, 38 collections during the FA, that's 128,440,000 Coins / FA, 5.48 Sacks, 37.9% of FA goal.
    • If this was a Lvl35 GA with a L39 MH, that would be 5.6% of 80M * 38 = 170,240,000 Coins, 7.26 Sack, 50.28% of FA goal, 12.4% increase.
  • 'Shantytown' of temporary Coin Producers
    • I currently have a shantytown of 65 Lvl1 Workshops, covering about 65*4.5sq = 292.5 squares.
    • If I rezoned that for temporary L39 Residences, that could be about 13, producing an additional 42,986,710 coins (23.5 + 150 hours production), 1.83 Sacks, 12.7% FA goal.
  • Neighborly Help
    • Currently, I have 366 Neighbors. With a L38 Main Hall, I get 129k coins/NH. 6 full rounds gives 283,284,000 Coins, 12.08 Sacks, 83.7% of FA goal.
    • If updated to L39 MH, that's 311,832,000 Coins, 13.30 Sacks, 92.1%, 8.4% increase.
    • Adjusting to get a 7th round of NH in the Fellowship with the upgraded MH, that's 363,804,000 Coins, 15.52 Sacks, 107.4% FA goal, 15.3% increase.
  • Pre-build by delaying Coin Collection
    • My L38 Residences can hold 23.5 hours of pre-production from before the start of the FA, while L16 MR holds 22h and L17 MR holds 23.5h. A full pre-production would thus be 13,514,286 + 2,180,640 + 3,812,405 = 19,507,331 Coins, 0.83 Sacks, 5.8% of FA goal.
      • If all upgraded, 14,397,980 + 6,862,329 = 21,260,309 Coins, .91 Sacks, 6.28% of FA goal, 0.48% improvement.
      • Add one pre-built collection from a maxed Golden Abyss, 4.480000 Coins, 0.19 Sack, 1.3% increase.
All together, my current production can make 5.35 + 5.48 + 12.08 = 22.91 Sacks over the course of a FA, allowing me to contribute to a Fellowship of 24 other peers for 572.75 Sacks, a full 3-Map clearance + 211.75 Sacks for the pit, enough for about 42 rounds, or about 252 individual Pits.

If I did all the optimizations, upgrading my existing buildings, adding a 'Shantytown', pre-building and optimizing NH to 7 rounds, that can make 5.78 + 7.26 + 1.83 + 15.52 + 1.10 = 31.49 Sacks over the course of the FA (37.5% increase), for a Fellowship equivalent of 787.25, a full 3-Map clearance + 426.25 Sacks for the pit, enough for about 85 rounds, or about 510 individual Pits (just over 100% more Pits).

And that's without considering what I should do for NH for my 24 Fellows, or what they should do for NH for me, or any Culture Bonus considerations, or storing coins in pre-started cancelable upgrades or pre-built sellable buildings, or whatever you might be able to do with Time Boosts, or Coin Rains.

So, by my math, a Fellow needs to earn 14.44 Sacks for a 25-member Fellowship to raise 361 Sacks to clear all 3 Maps.

My current, unprepared City, with normal game play, can earn 22.91 Sacks, 58% more than needed to clear all 3 Maps, enough to then do about 42 Rounds of the Pit.

If I partially optimized my city using some of my above observations, I can earn 31.49 Sacks, 37.5% more, 118% more than needed to clear all 3 Maps, enough to then do about 85 Rounds of the Pit.


So, how far unbalanced is this?


Again, this is based on my city, in my situation. Your numbers may vary,
 

Hekata

Summoner
While I'm sure your maths are spot on, this is still not the perspective of a FS going for top spots. You keep talking about clearing all maps but my FS does it on our chill FA with 5 or 6 people having an actual FA shanty town (say about 100 WS and 50 T1s). When we go for top scores we make about 1100-1200 of each item just for the pits. I believe that's 220-240 rounds in the pits. That means that we have the possibility to make that many badges while in fact we'll be stuck on 85-100 rounds because of coins IF we are ALL completely optimised for coins which would never be the case... And there are FS that make even more badges than we do.
 

Sir Derf

Mentor
There have been several adjustments to FAs over the years, that have changed the costs of various badges, and thus changed the balance of badges you needed to make for optimal performance (attempting to use all badges made, attempting to not overmake certain badges at the expense of other badges) This is another.

I talk about clearing maps, because some people say that's a focus they have. If that isn't yours, then adjust my numbers down for completing 3 maps, and adjust up the pit rounds accordingly. A minimum Sack path of Blue-Blue-Blue uses only 70 Sacks, with an accordingly higher need of all the other badges that you make in quantity. My above numbers for a 70-Sack clear without optimizations means an increase of from 42 Pit rounds to 100 Pit rounds.

I understand you don't like that this change minimizes your efforts at producing other badges. Stuff changes. Roll with it.

I understand that you don't like Pit rounds in the 85-100 instead of 220-240. But remember, everyone is being effected. You can't do 240 rounds in the Pit, they can't do 240 rounds in the Pit. The point isn't really "How many rounds can I do?", but "How many more rounds can I do than everyone else?"

I take the larger point of my numbers, which again are numbers that reflect my current situation, my Chapter, my city size, my city layout, to be that, with no attempt at focus on Sacks, that I appear to be able to make a surprising number of Sacks without particular changes to my city or gameplay. And that what at first appears to be minor adjustments to improve my performance, can nonetheless have a larger impact than I thought they would before I ran the numbers.
 

Sir Derf

Mentor
Provided you get enough Culture to earn the 125% Culture Boost, every NH buff of a Culture building gives you an additional 5% Production Bonus.

If all 24 of your Fellows buff a Culture building, and this buff can last the 23 hours until the next buff, what can this do?

My current Residences can produce 5.35 Sacks as a base, my fully optimized Residence + 'Shanty Residences' + pre-production can produce 5.78+1.83+0.91 = 8.52 Sacks.

125% + 24*5% = 245% production, or an increase of 145%. 145% of 5.35 = 7.75 additional Sacks (a 33% increase), 145% of 8.52 = 12.35 Sacks (a 39% increase).

Even higher if you can get the base boost up to Level 4 170% from Level 1 125%, and if you get Culture buffs from non-Fellow Neighbors.
 
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