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Discussion July 2022 Fellowship Adventure - Feedback

Sir Derf

Mentor
Oh, so it's better to drive forward in fear of the unknown?



Yes, they didn't try the changes out in Beta first. But, they are not required to do that.
Yes, they didn't announce the change before it started on the Live server. But, they are not required to announce changes.
Yes, they didn't apologize for the above. But, they are not required to do that, either.

Now, we could dislike any, or all, of the above. We can feel this is unfair, or unprofessional, or unethical, or impolite, or other such. We are welcome to our opinions. And to express our opinions.

And we can talk about how INNO should have handled this, and how they should handle this in the future. And we can react to the above, boycotting FAs, or quitting the game. Again, all fine.



Separate from how the change was made, there is the change itself, making several badges cost more, and in the case of Sacks of Gold, 4x more expensive.

Yes, this is a change to the FA. But, they are not required to keep the FA unchanging.

Again, we can dislike any, or all, of these changes. We can feel this is unfair, or unprofessional, or unethical, or impolite, or other such. Again, we are welcome to our opinions. And to express our opinions.

And we can talk about what changes INNO should have made, and how they should further change this in the future. And we can react to these changes, boycotting FAs, or quitting the game. Again, all fine.



Separate from all of that, we have the current, new, state of the game. Independent of all of the above, for those who don't choose to boycott FAs, or quit the game, we can discuss how to adjust to the current, new, state of the game. We've got the past experience and past discussions for understanding the past iterations of the FA, we can discuss the ramifications of these new costs, and possible reactions to adjust game play to these rules in the future.
 

Silly Bubbles

Sorcerer
I'm not happy with this change too. Especially not with the way it was communicated (not at all).
Part of the fun of a FA is the preparation and the discussion how to handle the next FA with the other fellows of the FS.
Building the shanty town and starting the productions 2 days before the real start of the FA.

At the moment Inno makes such huge changes, without warning and testing in Beta (so we could have known something with big consequences was going to change) means that all the preparations could be thrown away.
Discussing at that moment (at the moment it becomes clear that Inno has changed something dramatic) what to do is not an option in a FS with players from around the world. As is the case in the FS I'm playing in.
The confusion and miscommunication which followed will be severe (at least it was in our FS). No fun.

I believe Inno ows the players an apology. And a promise not to make big changes without testing in Beta and informing the players beforehand.
I'm realistic too. I don't see it happen.

This is exactly what I've been saying. The big problem is not the sack of coins, it's the sudden unexpected big change. Luckily, it worked out for me but I'm sure there are players that invested themselves in the old format and wasted their efforts. This will make a lot of people careful about the next FA. I surely won't invest myself as much till the FA starts and I'll see what changes they've made as anything can happen.
They either want people to expect unexpected to make it more entertaining or it's unintentional and then they should make a clear announcement explaining what happened so that players can trust that any changes to the format won't be sudden but will be tested on Beta first or at least announced way before FA starts.
 

Booff

Adventurer
I'm just glad I had a whole stack of coin rain-like I said "had"
 

whiskeyman

Novice
The new format with new amounts required for badges etc has been introduced, but without any notice to anyone!

Why?

Why give us a 3 day notice of a new adventure, then change the gameplay requirements without telling us?

Is the whole point of gaming about setting gameplay parameters ... Yes! So you just unleash new random gameplay parameters on us without any prior warning anyway? Yes! WTF!

Does it benefit any gamers? NO!

In our fellowship, we are not hardcore gamers, and we play the laid back type of game. You expect us to just log in and get on with it?

Our newer and occasional fellows are not happy, this fellowship adventure changes without any notice have put them off.

Try thinking next time before you make any major gameplay changes that affect everyone.

You have made my job a misery also, cuz i have to convince fellows that this was a mistake and they should stay and it will work out ... etc etc

In future, when you make changes to any gameplay ...

TRY TELLING US!
 

whiskeyman

Novice
This will be our last fellowship adventure if you do this again next time.

Either give us a heads up in advance if you move the goalposts, or we stop taking part.

Your choice ... choose wisely!
 
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Laurelin

Scholar
I do wonder if rune shards will see a shift in availability/importance now that we've thrown most of our stock at each other's wonders
@Jake65 : Very good point - and I would say yes, definitely - bearing in mind that Inno typically spaces out this kind of notable change, probably to allow time for useful ongoing analysis and adjustment of strategy, which means that the relationship(s) between changes can be hard to spot.

And while this is slightly off-topic, it's a related point, so just to go into a bit more detail here:

Even at my stage in Ch.XII, I notice that it's tempting to exchange short-term KP wealth - which drives fast progression - for long-term Rune Shard shortage, and for early-game Cities (whether with or without the new Tech Tree etc.) it will increasingly become a much more serious problem, especially if they are in a FS encouraging AW progression and/or using any kind of KP/Shard swapping system. This is because the early player's AWs will still need plenty of Runes to keep them levelled-up in the long term, and unless the player is well-advised and/or inherently savvy, they'll be unlikely to realise that the short-term bonanza made possible by exchanging too many - or even any - of their [few] Rune Shards for donations by later-game Cities which have Shard stockpiles will cause at least some degree of chronic shortage, particularly if they [incautiously] spend Shards which will be needed for later AWs which they have yet to build and/or may think they will never need.

In my opinion, there were reasons beyond player-pleasing (although that too was and is real) why Inno suddenly decided, apparently in a fit of atypically altruistic [and considerable] generosity, to [effectively] give later-game players thousands of free KP, after less than two years earlier [and again, often considerably] limiting the KP acquisition ability of those same players - more than any other player group - by extending the Spire Formula to the Tourney in 2020... just to give the most obvious example which springs to mind.

In fact, there is much more to say about revaluation of [ETA : the] excess Rune Shards (or rather, first-ever valuation of them, since excess Shards were formerly literally worthless), and this isn't the place - but it's this kind of 'join the dots' type of analysis* that makes sense of what Inno does.

[ * a.k.a. "conspiracy theory", these days - even though THAT is actually something else entirely. Sorry, couldn't resist just a little aside/joke... ;)]

I may (? I'm ever-lazy!) also have more to say about the current FA changes, as well - but for now... I've just woken up, and I haven't even started this week's Tourney (or even opened the game yet!) - so I'm off, before I entirely forget about my Elvenar priorities and my duty to my FS...! :D

But just before I go - @Sir Derf : I was too tired to remember to include this in my City info post, above, so I've now edited it to include :

(f) I have 322 completed Provinces of 320 required to open the next Chapter - for several reasons, I don't like to exceed that, nor to over-Scout.
 
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Silly Bubbles

Sorcerer
[ * a.k.a. "conspiracy theory", these days - even though THAT is actually something else entirely. Sorry, couldn't resist just a little aside/joke... ;)]

Don’t worry about me, keep going. I find it quite interesting how people come up with theories. The only thing is, I love this game and I’m quite protective of it so I’m making sure that there’s no unfair damage done just because someone did “interesting” analysis that didn’t work out very well and blames it on the game. Some theories can spread and make a lasting impact.
 

pepper16

Adventurer
I've heard the increase was a mistake, wouldn't it make mpre sense for the game setters to correct it?
This would have to be the WORST FA in the last 10 years - the 'Sack of coin's' badge quantity increase is outrageous!!! My Fellowship can usually get to the end of the 3rd stage, but this time we are stuck and I think most of the participating fellows have given up!! A waste of resources trying spend coins to gather coins!! NOT HAPPY!!
 

Kwiver

Dreamer
Oh, so it's better to drive forward in fear of the unknown?



Yes, they didn't try the changes out in Beta first. But, they are not required to do that.
Yes, they didn't announce the change before it started on the Live server. But, they are not required to announce changes.
Yes, they didn't apologize for the above. But, they are not required to do that, either.

Now, we could dislike any, or all, of the above. We can feel this is unfair, or unprofessional, or unethical, or impolite, or other such. We are welcome to our opinions. And to express our opinions.

And we can talk about how INNO should have handled this, and how they should handle this in the future. And we can react to the above, boycotting FAs, or quitting the game. Again, all fine.



Separate from how the change was made, there is the change itself, making several badges cost more, and in the case of Sacks of Gold, 4x more expensive.

Yes, this is a change to the FA. But, they are not required to keep the FA unchanging.

Again, we can dislike any, or all, of these changes. We can feel this is unfair, or unprofessional, or unethical, or impolite, or other such. Again, we are welcome to our opinions. And to express our opinions.

And we can talk about what changes INNO should have made, and how they should further change this in the future. And we can react to these changes, boycotting FAs, or quitting the game. Again, all fine.



Separate from all of that, we have the current, new, state of the game. Independent of all of the above, for those who don't choose to boycott FAs, or quit the game, we can discuss how to adjust to the current, new, state of the game. We've got the past experience and past discussions for understanding the past iterations of the FA, we can discuss the ramifications of these new costs, and possible reactions to adjust game play to these rules in the future.

Where we possibly differ Sir D is that I per default assume that civil discourse/discussion/common courtesy IS a requirement in any healthy conversation and/or client relationship.

If you are saying that we are disillusional as a loyal fan base to assume that INNO cares even one iota (and therefore only needs to do what is legally/contractually required), then fair enough - I concur 100% with you - they owe us nothing. I am however assuming INNO would like to do more (or at least pretend to do/care more) - and have failed to do so in this instance. I am therefore not holding them merely to a legal standard, but to one which they would set by their own admission?

Maybe I am wrong though - very likely always if you ask my partner...
 

Jake65

Sorcerer
Maybe I am wrong though - very likely always if you ask my partner..
If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
If you say something and your partner doesn't hear you, are you still wrong?
:D
 

Silly Bubbles

Sorcerer
It seems that the FA is becoming more about adaptation rather than preparation. I wouldn't sacrifice much to get ready for next FA as anything can happen or at my own risk. Maybe this will shake up the rankings a bit, it's getting a bit boring to see the same fellowships constantly at the top.
 

Laurelin

Scholar
Yeah, gotta be careful what is right is not as accepted as popular opinion.
... Aha! So that's where I've been going wrong, all these years...? I've been wondering... ;)

[...] they didn't try the changes out in Beta first [...] they didn't announce the change before it started on the Live server [...] they didn't apologize [...] But, they are not required to do that [...]
Well, yes... in fact, and as is true of almost all mobile / F2P games nowadays, Inno aren't required to do anything at all - even to provide a game:

InnoGames_T&Cs_Excerpt_01a_General.png

... and this appears very near the top of Inno's User Agreement - which, I'm sure, we've all read from beginning to end... don't we always...? ;)
[ Source : https://legal.innogames.com/portal/en/agb#section2 ]

Don’t worry about me, keep going.
Er... thank you? - and likewise - and I will! Well, time permitting, and accidental lapses into sleep and/or laziness aside... but then, isn't that [keeping going - not lapses or laziness...] the very essence of a healthy discussion between two or more parties who are invested in the same? :)

I find it quite interesting how people come up with theories.
Ah, now that must be fun... theorising about people theorising. Must remember to let L. Loquax get her teeth into THAT at some point...!

The only thing is, I love this game and I’m quite protective of it
And why not? However - assuming that you're addressing me (it seems so, but please correct me if I'm wrong)... am I right to infer that this implies that you feel that I am attacking the game in some way? If I try to share knowledge which helps me to play effectively, and for longer, which obviously extends, for me, the game's lifetime - and thus - I hope? - helping others to do the same, am I in some way threatening the game's future? I don't feel the need to actively protect the game, nor yet Inno themselves, from anything or anyone - but nor to I wish either of them ill. Far from it, in fact... or else I wouldn't even be here. Well, not posting any comments, anyway. L. Lurca is a different beast, though... :oops:

so I’m making sure that there’s no unfair damage done just because someone did “interesting” analysis that didn’t work out very well and blames it on the game.
Now, you really do need to define your terms here. 'Unfair' damage? What is 'fair' damage? And why would anyone blame their own failure to analyse any game adequately or correctly, with sufficient foundation for any theories made - or indeed to derive, from their considerations, an adequate and useful in-game strategy, or anything similar - on the game itself? That's not honest, and is at best self-defeating.

Some theories can spread and make a lasting impact.
Indeed they can... and at the risk of [temporarily] side-tracking this thread to a related topic : theories about the Spire / Tournament Formula in particular have the potential to create an impact upon one's City which is so lasting as to be permanent, or at the very least impossible to undo without a complete rebuild of the City, and yet this is still one of the most commonly discussed topics on this Forum - with opinions/advice on 'Formula strategies' freely given - even though the 'new' Formula was introduced two years ago, and the original discussion thread relating to it contained over 1,400 posts expressing every opinion imaginable. And yet here we are... still, in many cases, bemoaning the Formula - but still playing.

And to get back on-topic - here we are, bemoaning the FA, attempting to suggest strategies to deal with it - whether or not anyone decides to take our advice (Free Will is a thing...) - and, well, also still playing. I see nothing but GOOD coming to any game when its long-term users even care enough to express opinions on it. Isn't it better for this Forum to have some content beyond in-jokes between old-timers, as and when new users join, seeking something to read which is actually interesting - and relevant - to them...? And in the long run - does all of this help or hinder the game itself...? After all, and to quote Oscar Wilde : "The only thing worse than being talked about - is NOT being talked about".

Broad perspectives can be very useful, not only in a video game, but everywhere in Life.

It seems that the FA is becoming more about adaptation rather than preparation.
... and there you have encapsulated - although I myself would reverse the order of "preparation" and "adaptation" - the best way to play ANY game! :cool:

And for now - I'm still too lazy to get into any further [new] theorising... and I'm also off to bed again, anyway. Sighs of relief all round...?! :D
 

Laurelin

Scholar
Schroedinger's cat might say you are both right and wrong simultaneously. But the jury is still out. :rolleyes:
... meanwhile, the Cats' Protection League has very much made up its mind about shutting cats in boxes with cyanide - and similar behaviour! :D
 

Gelvie

Novice
Anyone else finding the fellowship adventures too difficult for little reward? I now notice that the ‘sack of coins’ are almost impossible to get and that they have included an item that requires the spire and tournaments - both that are only available for a couple of days so may not even be available for you when you need. I know you can collect when they are there but there is not enough time (or resources). This makes it sometimes impossible to collect the items in 4 days. Could I please request that this be made much easier - my entire fellowship has given up on this event now.
 

schadenfreude

Conjurer
It’s very weird that the German CM made a post about the Coin debacle, but all other markets are mum about it. They’d rather we form our own conclusions and think the devs have devilish intentions for making one badge ridiculously disproportionately difficult than just tell us they made a mistake. I dunno about you lot, but I can forgive someone coming clean about a mistake, but I like it much less when they treat me like a child like I can’t handle the truth.
 

Skallywag

Spellcaster
It’s very weird that the German CM made a post about the Coin debacle, but all other markets are mum about it. They’d rather we form our own conclusions and think the devs have devilish intentions for making one badge ridiculously disproportionately difficult than just tell us they made a mistake. I dunno about you lot, but I can forgive someone coming clean about a mistake, but I like it much less when they treat me like a child like I can’t handle the truth.
The Coins badge was due for a correction, as are the guards and wonders badges. It caught us by surprise how difficult it had become, but comes across to me as hyperbole to say it was " ridiculously disproportionately difficult."

Maybe your experience was different, but it wasn't the badge that we got stuck on for long periods of time. That honor this time mainly went to the workshop related ones. When we got stuck on coins, people would just go get coins, cast a few spells, etc. You guys went a lot farther than we did, so maybe that's the difference, but if so wouldn't you have found the badges for vision vapor and CC's similarly difficult?

My other observation is that we all played by the same rules. It was a surprise, but at least this time it was a surprise to everyone, equally affecting us all presumably.
 

schadenfreude

Conjurer
The Coins badge was due for a correction, as are the guards and wonders badges. It caught us by surprise how difficult it had become, but comes across to me as hyperbole to say it was " ridiculously disproportionately difficult."

Maybe your experience was different, but it wasn't the badge that we got stuck on for long periods of time. That honor this time mainly went to the workshop related ones. When we got stuck on coins, people would just go get coins, cast a few spells, etc. You guys went a lot farther than we did, so maybe that's the difference, but if so wouldn't you have found the badges for vision vapor and CC's similarly difficult?

My other observation is that we all played by the same rules. It was a surprise, but at least this time it was a surprise to everyone, equally affecting us all presumably.
We hunkered down and got it done with coin rains like most people, but it is not a sustainable method to get a single badge. We are lucky we have people with enough coin rains and were willing to burn them. Not everyone is in our position to do so. If I visit everyone in my neighborhood, I'd still fall short of a Coin badge. At least for the Arcanes that you speak of, the MA flips every 6hrs and there are 5 slots of stuff to craft. Paired with a fed Red Panda, it's no longer that difficult to make Arcanes. For Druids, you can make 4 a day in your MA, and more if you have Moonstone, Pilgrim, or Forbidden Ruins sets. You most definitely will get more than one of those badges each day AND should a player feel inclined, time instants can be used to make more. For coins, I visit everyone and come up short. Maybe I can look between the sofa cushions and scrape up the rest to make 1 coin badge. Then I have to wait almost a whole day to do neighborly visits again. I cannot speed that process up with time Instants. I cannot speed up my resident coin collects with time instants either, though trying to get a coin badge from residents will prob take another day. Someone mentioned you can also build culture buildings and cancel construction. But now you have to use supply windfalls instead of coin rains and it's probably more mind boggling tedious clicking than brews. What sort of obnoxiously boring game play is it to force players to build and cancel a building repeatedly to progress? So yeah, I would consider that ridiculously disproportionately difficult.

I don't have a problem with them not making announcements to changes between beta and live. They have that right. This coin badge tweak was obviously an overkill and the German CM has come out to say it was a mistake. I am wondering why they chose to only tell the home market and leave everyone else in the dark. The percentage of people that stroll the forums is a tiny fraction of the game base. Even a tinier fraction will go check the beta, German, or US forums to see if there's more info. I mean, yes, we all had to grit our teeth through this and it's the same awful coin badge for everyone, but if people knew it was a mistake, they can make informed decisions as to what they want to do. Maybe they'll suck it up and spend the coin rains knowing it's for one FA instead of giving up. I'm also reading a lot of complaints along the lines of "We're never doing FAs again." Now people think all FAs will be like this. How many of those can be avoided if they just tell us they made an oops? Cause it doesn't help anyone if player base gets fed up and leave. We need them to pay the bills and keep the lights on.
 

Silly Bubbles

Sorcerer
What sort of obnoxiously boring game play is it to force players to build and cancel a building repeatedly to progress?

Let's not forget that nobody's forcing us to do anything. It's much easier to get all the prizes now than it was a year ago without tedious work in reasonably active fellowships. I do understand that it gets much harder when we aim for a good ranking but it's not a necessity to enjoy the game, it's only a small part of the game that can be skipped.
 
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