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Insane catering cost jump in Amuni

Heymrdiedier

Conjurer
That's a VERY physical manifesting imagination i have then ;-)

Would you care to elaborate on why i suddenly have a hard time keeping up producing goods for catering in tournaments, even though i still play the game the same way. Still collect 4x3 hour productions and 1x9 hour every day. But maybe i also just imagine those suddenly raised goods that i have to pay in each encounter. Maybe i just see double, so those 15K should only be 7.5K. But who's stealing my goods then ?

It sounds to me that you're a fighter and not a caterer, because it's very clear the costs in goods goes a good deal up.
simple: every scout you start, increases the costs of the next scouts, so as long as you keep scouting it keeps getting more expensive.
Now if you scout a province, and dont touch it for a year, and you keep scouting during that year, then its very possible your next scout will be 30-40% more expensive then the province you scouted a year ago. So if you compare those 2, then you will see indeed a high cost increase.

If you however compare costs for a province you scouted just before reaching amuni tech, and compare that with a province you scout after you reached amuni tech, then you will see theres hardly any price difference.
 

m4rt1n

Artisan
simple: every scout you start, increases the costs of the next scouts, so as long as you keep scouting it keeps getting more expensive.
Now if you scout a province, and dont touch it for a year, and you keep scouting during that year, then its very possible your next scout will be 30-40% more expensive then the province you scouted a year ago. So if you compare those 2, then you will see indeed a high cost increase.

If you however compare costs for a province you scouted just before reaching amuni tech, and compare that with a province you scout after you reached amuni tech, then you will see theres hardly any price difference.
Unless the scout was in a new ring further out, then there would be a significant increase.
 

MinMax Gamer

Enchanter
Couldn't agree more with @Killiak

We shouldn't be simultaneously discouraged from scouting and then forced to scout/complete world map encounters to participate in events.
I don't see a lot of coercing here, really. All scouting quests have an alternative (gain vapor). All map encounters have tournament encounters alternative (an entirely renewable resource). This leaves complete the province quests, of which there are 5 this time around. 2 of them are at the very end at #109, so can be ignored without losing too much. So is scouting/negotiating 3-5 provinces per major event too much? You decide.
 
Hi

Why in the world should the catering cost jump about 30-40% just because of the entering of Amuni ?

This is way to much of a jump.

All the best
Elivar
i know for certain that a player who unlocked 6 more squad sizes than me is only paying 25% more in tournaments. he finished constructs and i am earlier in that same chapter, by the way. so 30 to 40% more seems like a big overstatement, especially when there are only about 3 squad size upgrades per chapter. also, some of those increased costs are compensated for by having better factories, barracks, etc. if the extra tournament costs are too much, research more slowly and beef up your wonders.
 

LazyTony

Sorcerer
Ok, lets pick this apart bit by bit.

All scouting quests have an alternative (gain vapor).
This was a last minute addition on the beta server. In other words, Inno aren't aware that they are simultaneously encouraging and discouraging the same activity.

This leaves complete the province quests, of which there are 5 this time around. 2 of them are at the very end at #109, so can be ignored without losing too much.
By definition players at the end of the tech tree are the longest standing players of Elvenar, and are all active. Does it sound like sensible customer relations to you to not allow your most loyal customers to complete your newest feature?

So is scouting/negotiating 3-5 provinces per major event too much? You decide.
I don't have to, I have already been told I shouldn't be completing more world map provinces. So 20 more per year (and it could be a lot more with different questlines) is 20 more than I should be doing.

Consistency really isn't a big ask. Either we are doing too much or too little, not both at the same time. :confused:
 
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Killiak

Shaman
I don't see a lot of coercing here, really. All scouting quests have an alternative (gain vapor). All map encounters have tournament encounters alternative (an entirely renewable resource). This leaves complete the province quests, of which there are 5 this time around. 2 of them are at the very end at #109, so can be ignored without losing too much. So is scouting/negotiating 3-5 provinces per major event too much? You decide.
Focussing on the curent event means you are ignoring that this issue exists across events as a whole, where the alternatives are not always given and/or available.
So, by all means, please take a broader view.
 

MinMax Gamer

Enchanter
Focussing on the curent event means you are ignoring that this issue exists across events as a whole, where the alternatives are not always given and/or available.
So, by all means, please take a broader view.
I think it is reasonable to assume that this change (i.e. alternatives) is going to persist in the future. Presumably Inno listened to feedback and made changes, so I don't see why they would roll it back unless they would see some severe balancing issues.

So from that perspective focusing on the past events can be misleading - otherwise, we would still be talking about only 3 grand prizes per event, where the last one practically always required diamonds. So if you take current event as a proxy for future events setups, do you still feel that end game players are at a severe disadvantage? What would you change then?
 

LazyTony

Sorcerer
Its not about an advantage or disadvantage. Its not about arguing to make the game suit a certain subset of players or not. I think that's where your disagreement is coming from.

It's really rather simple. Give us advanced scouts and let us complete events that require the world map. Or don't, and make it possible to complete an event without the world map. I really don't care which it is, it can't be both discouraged and necessary at the same time. This is the equivalent of a parent both punishing and requiring the same behaviour at the same time.
 

Killiak

Shaman
I think it is reasonable to assume that this change (i.e. alternatives) is going to persist in the future. Presumably Inno listened to feedback and made changes, so I don't see why they would roll it back unless they would see some severe balancing issues.

So from that perspective focusing on the past events can be misleading - otherwise, we would still be talking about only 3 grand prizes per event, where the last one practically always required diamonds. So if you take current event as a proxy for future events setups, do you still feel that end game players are at a severe disadvantage? What would you change then?
We have seen before that changes made in events, or improvements in quest design, do not always translate to the next event. A prime example can be found in the Crafting Challenges, where productions are counted towards progress right away but where this system is not translated to other questlines or the FA.
We have seen it with the Woodstock event and follow-up events, where alternative quest options were not guaranteed or even present.
We have also seen it with the current event, where the Vision Vapor alternative was only added right before it came to the Live servers, thankfully.

In conclusion; No, it is not reasonable to assume, as we have plenty of examples in the recent past where such was not the case.
It is also not misleading, since we are talking about the dichotomy between event QUEST lines and the limitations to scouting on the worldmap. Grand prizes have no role in this discussion.

As for what I would change; I am no game developer, but I do see a mixed signal in the above dichotomy. On one hand we are being limited in what we can or should scout, on the other we are FORCED into completing provinces. The conclusion is simple; not a single event quest about scouting/completion provs/doing encounters should be without a non-scout alternative.
 

Heartman

Soothsayer
@Heartman The cost of Negotiating in Provinces is based solely on Scouting costs. There is no increment built into changing Chapter. Scouting costs increase only by completing Scouting tasks. The difference with the last 2 Chapters is that there is not the 25% decrease in Scouting costs brought about by Advanced Scouts Technology, which means Scouting and Negotiating costs have been increasing steadily since the beginning of Elementals (not Halflings, as was mentioned earlier). ;)
Thank you Rilian, I was not aware that it was an incremental change. I get that the cost is linked to the scouting costs, but the Scouting costs are related to an incremental shift. This part is what I believed was chapter dependent. Thank you for correcting my mistake, I have learned a little more about the game.
 

Heymrdiedier

Conjurer
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i actually have the opposite coming up (ofcourse im not in chapters without advanced scouts tech)
My future scout will be easier then what i have allready scouted.
 

Elivar

Soothsayer
The number in the name of the squad size upgrade tells you how much will it add to your squad. The first one in Amuni has number 44. It adds three times as much to your squad size, which is 44x3=132. If you didn’t take optional squad size upgrades, the increase is actually very noticeable. If you did take all optional squad size upgrades, the increase is relatively smaller (percentage wise) and therefore less noticeable.
Yes, i have skipped optional squad size upgrades since i entered chapter 5 when i found out that it was a bad thing to do regarding negotiation costs.

I also found some threads on beta and us forums talking about this. The sudden jumps in negotiation costs. So i'm not the only one experiencing them. It's just the first time it's such a big jump, that i really feel it hard keeping up producing the goods.
 

m4rt1n

Artisan
Yes, i have skipped optional squad size upgrades since i entered chapter 5 when i found out that it was a bad thing to do regarding negotiation costs.

I also found some threads on beta and us forums talking about this. The sudden jumps in negotiation costs. So i'm not the only one experiencing them. It's just the first time it's such a big jump, that i really feel it hard keeping up producing the goods.
I have taken all 51 squad size upgrades available in the game so far and the biggest jump in negotiation costs, map or tournament that has affected me mostly is the Orcs required. I had 2 Armories, and now have 4 fully upgraded armories, as Orcs are the biggest sticking point.
I find the tourneys no big issue and get 3k plus easily, weekly, but now on 470 provinces scouted I have entered the 14th ring and now 6mill and 74 hours scouts they are all now medium fights, rather than easy II.
I'm currently sat awaiting ch15 release for info. ;)
 

Synaptic

Novice
I think increasing the catering cost with 40% makes total sense to mitigate the imbalance with skipping the optional squad size upgrades.
I even if the cost would be 100% more I would still opt now to pay 100% more goods on the world provinces then 25% on the tournaments.

The people that skipped all the optional squad size upgrades rely solely on catering the world provinces so make it rain from my point of view.

From tournaments you gain way more benefits then world map explorations.
 

FieryArien

Scholar
The people that skipped all the optional squad size upgrades rely solely on catering the world provinces so make it rain from my point of view.
Nope. I’m sorry to tell you. I have absolutely no problem fighting the world provinces. I’ve skipped optional squad size upgrades*) and at the moment I’m in Elementals (building portal now). I slightly overscouted - the next chapter chest (Amuni) would already open for me.

It isn’t like this in every chapter. Up to Dwarves it was kind of tough. :confused: Maybe it will be harder in the later chapters, but I doubt that. There’s too many mandatory squad size upgrades and too few optional ones.

*) Ok, I actually did the first two; they were numbered 3 and 4, so they contribute to my squad by whooping 21 size.
 

Synaptic

Novice
Epic :) I think the optional squad size upgrades are not explained at all in game and I see that most people that play end up in skipping them. I used to play Tribal War which was super solid in terms of mechanics and Elvenar looks like a game setup on private server with some arrogant admins.
 

Davemc

Bard
I completed all the squad sizes up to dwarves where the fighting was still hard in the world map. I have now finished Constructs completed up to 457 provinces to get my last expansion and still a lot of my scoutable provinces are easy. Still get average 3k in tournaments and find troop losses minimal in world map encounters. But im sure the spire will change my troop losses
 

Killiak

Shaman
@Rilian
That pretty much dictates to us that there is a hard limit to scouting, or at least to efficiënt scouting. This is apparently a Dev choice, so fair enough I suppose. However, in events we are supposed to scout and gain relics, solve encounters and complete provinces, the current event being a prime example of such.

Those two will, eventually anyway, no longer be reconcilable. Thoughts on this please?

@Rilian Still waiting for some thoughts and information :)