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Research If anything needs to be rebalanced it's the research tree.

DeletedUser487

Guest
Hi Elves and Humans,

With the recent update, more players are angrily and reluctantly going back to research items in the tech tree that they might not even want to use. Although I would say the developers have made great progress in redesigning the battle system, there remains another "rebalancing" issue: the research tree. My post will have two sections.

Let me start with what we are told before you even register for the game:

x2153uj.jpg

We are told that there are two distinct playing styles, however this is not totally true. As a trader you still need to research all things to do with trading and as a battler you still have to research all things to do with trade. I am of the opinion that there should be two distinct tech trees, one for trading and one for battling. Each tree would of course share common techs, such as expansions and culture buildings, but there would be specific techs for your chosen path, such as trading boosts for different manufactories or something like that, whereas the battle tech tree would get the squad size upgrades and new units as well as some goods buildings (as you would still need these to do research and upgrades with). I can't say exactly what each of these different research paths would have as technologies, but I am sure you guys will be able to come up with some ideas.

My second point is the developer's' ways of introducing new techs on the current tech tree. We have seen several times now players having to go back research techs that they might not use and it impedes their gaming experience somewhat. I was just about to finish researching the Day Farm for example when it became blocked and I have to spend 60KP on the Dryad which I have no intention of using. Sucks right?

I think the developers should consider, for the current live worlds, making a section on the research tree called "New Technologies" (the name is not important) and in this section they could put the all the new techs they introduce. This means that the developers would have to have a sit down and decide on which elements of the current tree are going to be mandatory. When they introduce a new tech, they should put it in the new technologies section, and give it whatever requirements they want. I'm sure the developers are clever enough to make this work.

This would then leave players the ability to continue with uninterrupted gaming, without having to go back and be forced to research something.

All of the above is just my opinion. I am not saying that anything must be done but it is an idea that I would like to put forward.

I look forward to seeing what you guys have to say about it, positive and negative. I'm sure I have missed things out or something will not be totally clear but I hope you get the gist of what I am suggesting.
 
Tonton-des-bois

Tonton-des-bois

Illusionist
Sorry, but I don't fully agree about the splitted tech tree thing... If you separate the three into 2 distinct ways, then you must go on the way you chosed at startup even if you want to change, not to waste all you've done to this point... imho, a common tech tree gives you the opportunity to change your mind in the "middle" of the game (like I did when I was borred of the battles). As said, my opinion... ;)
 

DeletedUser487

Guest
tonton-des-bois said:
Sorry, but I don't fully agree about the splitted tech tree thing... If you separate the three into 2 distinct ways, then you must go on the way you chosed at startup even if you want to change, not to waste all you've done to this point... imho, a common tech tree gives you the opportunity to change your mind in the "middle" of the game (like I did when I was borred of the battles). As said, my opinion... ;)
Click to expand...
I considered that after writing. Maybe they make it that both "trees" are available for players to invest in a kind of perk based system? I dunno, I think things need changed tbh.
 

DeletedUser487

Guest
tonton-des-bois said:
We must sometimes admit that not all is bad in this game ... :p:rolleyes:;)
Click to expand...
I'd agree to a certain extent! Can't wait to test the new fellowship system tomorrow on Beta and they have made big improvements into the battle system.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
The goal of the developers seems to be to slow things down, not speed them up. Splitting the tech tree would just allow players to choose one path and move through the tech tree that much faster. Plus, under the current tech tree and building upgrade scheme, everyone needs to do those techs and produce goods in order to advance. So if they just let some people skip the military techs then they would just race ahead of everyone else who chose to go a military route.

It is pretty clear that the devs want you to pretty much have to unlock all tech and build a bunch of buildings that you may not ever use except for the events, etc.

p.s. The release notes to warn you that the new unit techs "will stay optional until the next update." So no one should really be surprised by the fact that they now have to do these techs and it is just a sign of not planning ahead.

A bunch of new units have been added:
  • The Dryad is a new Light Ranged Unit available to both Humans and Elves. This unit can be trained in the Training Grounds. The technology for this unit can be unlocked in Chapter IV, and will stay optional until the next update.
  • The Rad Mortar is now available to Humans. This is the third and final level of the Mortar unit, which can be trained in the Barracks. The technology for this unit can be unlocked at the end of the Orcs and Goblins chapter. The technology will stay optional until the next update.
 

DeletedUser487

Guest
@Arjavh I'm still not convinced on the necessity of having to research every new thing that comes into the game at some point. I think it is great that new content is being added but I think these could be separated from the main research tree allowing players to follow more the "story".
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I think for the developers, it is the easy route to take, given how the tech tree is displayed in the game. The scrolling from left to right with a max height of five techs leaves them kinda stuck as far as having the linking lines make sense between the techs. They would probably need to develop a new design / display for the tech tree in order to accommodate this. Not that it would be a terrible idea and other games have accomplished this, I've had a game in the past that came with a poster which showed it's tech tree as it was so large and convoluted.

Right now as far as I can tell the only optional techs seem to consist of:
** Squad Size Upgrade #: Which one you complete does not really matter ( unless a quest asks for a specific one ) as they just add a number of troops to your squad size based on the total number of these techs completed and don't really care which one was done.
** City Upgrade #: Again only matters if it is required by number for a quest. Of course, I'll do all of these as I want the space.
** Culture: I think there is one culture tech that is optional for me in the Human tech tree.
** Other than that, it just seems to be the new techs that are new and then become required the following release.

Not saying a revised tech tree would be a bad idea. I have not fought a battle since the battle re-design so could be farther ahead on the tech tree if I skipped squad size and unit techs. But if they allowed that many techs to be skipped, they would probably have to re-balance the catering costs to reflect that players have jumped ahead by not developing the military tech.
 

DeletedUser2395

Guest
I agree that it's frustrating to have to research something you won't be using or, for that matter, to build something you don't want to use. I think the simple solution is to keep the current structure but make every research item useful to all players. Currently, when you complete research that releases the ability to build certain cultural buildings, it is up to you which, if any, you build. Why not do that for everything. So researching a banshee could become researching a banshee and/or increased production for one of your boosted goods (for example). That way all components of the tree are completed by everyone without anyone feeling that they're wasting KPs on useless things...and the current research structure could remain.

Equally, mandatory buildings could become dual purpose, depending on your preferred playing style. So the barracks could also serve as a catering hall where cooks/entertainers are trained as opposed to soldiers, for example. This would also provide a more cohesive theme through the whole game than the current tokenism that allows you to choose catering instead of fighting for provinces.
 

DeletedUser3075

Guest
Arjavh said:
I think for the developers, it is the easy route to take, given how the tech tree is displayed in the game. The scrolling from left to right with a max height of five techs leaves them kinda stuck as far as having the linking lines make sense between the techs. They would probably need to develop a new design / display for the tech tree in order to accommodate this. Not that it would be a terrible idea and other games have accomplished this, I've had a game in the past that came with a poster which showed it's tech tree as it was so large and convoluted.

Right now as far as I can tell the only optional techs seem to consist of:
** Squad Size Upgrade #: Which one you complete does not really matter ( unless a quest asks for a specific one ) as they just add a number of troops to your squad size based on the total number of these techs completed and don't really care which one was done.
** City Upgrade #: Again only matters if it is required by number for a quest. Of course, I'll do all of these as I want the space.
** Culture: I think there is one culture tech that is optional for me in the Human tech tree.
** Other than that, it just seems to be the new techs that are new and then become required the following release.

Not saying a revised tech tree would be a bad idea. I have not fought a battle since the battle re-design so could be farther ahead on the tech tree if I skipped squad size and unit techs. But if they allowed that many techs to be skipped, they would probably have to re-balance the catering costs to reflect that players have jumped ahead by not developing the military tech.
Click to expand...

eh? I thought to complete every scout chest at the end of an era you had to have everything in the tree unlocked? I had no idea you could skip certain techs?
 

DeletedUser3075

Guest
GregoriousIV said:
Hi Elves and Humans,

With the recent update, more players are angrily and reluctantly going back to research items in the tech tree that they might not even want to use. Although I would say the developers have made great progress in redesigning the battle system, there remains another "rebalancing" issue: the research tree. My post will have two sections.

Let me start with what we are told before you even register for the game:

x2153uj.jpg

We are told that there are two distinct playing styles, however this is not totally true. As a trader you still need to research all things to do with trading and as a battler you still have to research all things to do with trade. I am of the opinion that there should be two distinct tech trees, one for trading and one for battling. Each tree would of course share common techs, such as expansions and culture buildings, but there would be specific techs for your chosen path, such as trading boosts for different manufactories or something like that, whereas the battle tech tree would get the squad size upgrades and new units as well as some goods buildings (as you would still need these to do research and upgrades with). I can't say exactly what each of these different research paths would have as technologies, but I am sure you guys will be able to come up with some ideas.

My second point is the developer's' ways of introducing new techs on the current tech tree. We have seen several times now players having to go back research techs that they might not use and it impedes their gaming experience somewhat. I was just about to finish researching the Day Farm for example when it became blocked and I have to spend 60KP on the Dryad which I have no intention of using. Sucks right?

I think the developers should consider, for the current live worlds, making a section on the research tree called "New Technologies" (the name is not important) and in this section they could put the all the new techs they introduce. This means that the developers would have to have a sit down and decide on which elements of the current tree are going to be mandatory. When they introduce a new tech, they should put it in the new technologies section, and give it whatever requirements they want. I'm sure the developers are clever enough to make this work.

This would then leave players the ability to continue with uninterrupted gaming, without having to go back and be forced to research something.

All of the above is just my opinion. I am not saying that anything must be done but it is an idea that I would like to put forward.

I look forward to seeing what you guys have to say about it, positive and negative. I'm sure I have missed things out or something will not be totally clear but I hope you get the gist of what I am suggesting.
Click to expand...

what if you want to do both?
 

DeletedUser

Guest
HardcoreGamer said:
eh? I thought to complete every scout chest at the end of an era you had to have everything in the tree unlocked? I had no idea you could skip certain techs?
Click to expand...
I think they are really rare, some like Squad Size 3 and Squad Size 5 for the Elves. They have no lines coming of the right side of the tech box connecting them to techs further to the right on the tree, so should not be required. At least that is how it seemed to work for me.
 

DeletedUser3075

Guest
Arjavh said:
I think they are really rare, some like Squad Size 3 and Squad Size 5 for the Elves. They have no lines coming of the right side of the tech box connecting them to techs further to the right on the tree, so should not be required. At least that is how it seemed to work for me.
Click to expand...

yeah but if you look at some techs on the right side and hover over them they will tell you which techs before them are needed and in my experience it looks like you need every single tech...can you show me a screenshot of a tech tree thats completed the era but has a tech skipped way back?
 

DeletedUser3075

Guest
oh i just noticed some...but they are all only city expansion...and obviously i want those
 

DeletedUser3372

Guest
Arjavh said:
I think for the developers, it is the easy route to take, given how the tech tree is displayed in the game. The scrolling from left to right with a max height of five techs leaves them kinda stuck as far as having the linking lines make sense between the techs. They would probably need to develop a new design / display for the tech tree in order to accommodate this. Not that it would be a terrible idea and other games have accomplished this, I've had a game in the past that came with a poster which showed it's tech tree as it was so large and convoluted.

Right now as far as I can tell the only optional techs seem to consist of:
** Squad Size Upgrade #: Which one you complete does not really matter ( unless a quest asks for a specific one ) as they just add a number of troops to your squad size based on the total number of these techs completed and don't really care which one was done.
** City Upgrade #: Again only matters if it is required by number for a quest. Of course, I'll do all of these as I want the space.
** Culture: I think there is one culture tech that is optional for me in the Human tech tree.
** Other than that, it just seems to be the new techs that are new and then become required the following release.

Not saying a revised tech tree would be a bad idea. I have not fought a battle since the battle re-design so could be farther ahead on the tech tree if I skipped squad size and unit techs. But if they allowed that many techs to be skipped, they would probably have to re-balance the catering costs to reflect that players have jumped ahead by not developing the military tech.
Click to expand...
Why would it matter if people went faster? not everyone plays the same I am in dwarves and I love this game but its become so slow and boring I'm thinking now would be a good time to stop. I personally think it would be a great idea to not have to do anything to do with the soldiers that cant win a fight anyway just my opinion ans I know people love the fighting side it is a bit wrong to say we can choose then not allow us to it seems like they want us all to finish with the same cities not something we have created ourselves
 

DeletedUser441

Guest
I fight and negotiate/cater :). I think it's best to be an all rounder. I am almost always in the top 70 in Tournaments ; have only two of each boosted goods manufactories ; five armouries with my Barracks ,Training Grounds and Mercenary Camp.I also produce every good at the maximum possible level (as far as my research allows).:cool: Sadly I used to regularly be in the top 20 before all the changes occurred :(.
 
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