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How difficult does it get?

Gargon667

Scholar
obviously you don't understand the system well.

The problem is that those light melee units get pounded upon before you are even in striking range of the enemy.
You could give those units 500% attack bonus and it would not matter much. worse is that abbots destroy your attack power as well, so by the time you get close to those orc deserters your steel sword turned into a rubber one.

In my experience you need ~+100% HP added to light melee units to become comparable to range units. this so they can survive in enough numbers by the time they reach the enemy that they can actually still pack a punch.
Were you quoting the correct thread here? From your answer I would say, you wanted to quote the guy I quoted, because you say the same thing I say :D
 

Gargon667

Scholar
Roughly, how many squads consumed for scroll and dust for 10k points.
Dust, you use mages primarily ? And what kind. Banshees or merc camp mages ?
I follow slightly similar strategies. Trying to fine tune. Thanks.
Can´t really tell how many squads I lose. Depends mostly on how many UUU/DA I use and that changes...

In Dust I use Rangers (2 star is OK, but of course really fun at 3 star), before that I used Archers for the mage heavy encounters (which is most common). Again Golems/Orc Strat for the LR/HR encounters.
 

AstralSoul

Illusionist
unfortunatly we do no heavy range power booster, healt is nice, but damage bonus is nicer :)

Health is quite generic and except for steel I always have health boosted.
Yesterday I decided to raise healt on all tournaments again, My HP boost stock has risen to 2250%, so it's about tie we use a bit more than usual so it's not rising again.
Wow, that is a lot...

When possible, I rather go offensive. In fact, I got my Needles to level 30, and I am researching S&D faculties... And needles, and bird, do a lot (bird does boost heavy ranged too, but nothing else.)

Older note:

4-12-20: 2xELR, 2xUUU, 1xArmorer. Lv10 Fire Phoenix. Boosters used: 12x5h (troops, doors) Fighting until Top (Expenses: 2150k tools to re-do troops) I got about the same boosters back. Dwarven Armorer received. Magic Residence, PP, and diamonds. Needles level 19.

Now, my needles are level 30, and made #s for level 31 with diamonds (next ones are not worth it, for the KP alone, but level 31 its), So might level it up eventually. Archers solve more problems than you think, and chapter XVI got *** wardens... give attack to them, and they will swipe.
 

CrazyWizard

Scholar
Were you quoting the correct thread here? From your answer I would say, you wanted to quote the guy I quoted, because you say the same thing I say :D
No because you wrote:
Meaning if lets say (just a theoretical thought experiment) you swapped the attack bonus of your own LR and LM units: Suddenly Dust/Scrolls would be the easiest tourneys and Steel would be the most difficult

You can swap as much attack bonus as you like, it wouln't matter a thing. yes LM sucks because it has nog range, nor bulk to survive the onslought, not because of it's attack bonus, even heavy melee sucks, I try to avoid treants for a reason, tho they have bulk they to have no range.

Wow, that is a lot...

When possible, I rather go offensive. In fact, I got my Needles to level 30, and I am researching S&D faculties... And needles, and bird, do a lot (bird does boost heavy ranged too, but nothing else.)

Older note:

4-12-20: 2xELR, 2xUUU, 1xArmorer. Lv10 Fire Phoenix. Boosters used: 12x5h (troops, doors) Fighting until Top (Expenses: 2150k tools to re-do troops) I got about the same boosters back. Dwarven Armorer received. Magic Residence, PP, and diamonds. Needles level 19.

Now, my needles are level 30, and made #s for level 31 with diamonds (next ones are not worth it, for the KP alone, but level 31 its), So might level it up eventually. Archers solve more problems than you think, and chapter XVI got *** wardens... give attack to them, and they will swipe.
I am a snob who refuses to use troops in the spire, every unit that does in the spire could have gotten more KP or other goodies in the tournaments.
The second problem is that I use every booster for 2 tournaments, this means that I can only employ such strategy every other week, and have to spend some of my time boosters on advancing trought the spire in time, I rather use those on building more units.

I already go quite offensive every week but then in the tournaments, each week the goal is ~800KP and the first place.

btw I would like to advise investing in the flying academy instead of your needles, in about the next 2-3 chapters you unlock the the final merc camp units, and depending on your race either 3 or 4 of them are the best units in the game. so you might want to get both needles and flying academy on par with eachother so you can use the best units aviable.
 

Gargon667

Scholar
No because you wrote:
Meaning if lets say (just a theoretical thought experiment) you swapped the attack bonus of your own LR and LM units: Suddenly Dust/Scrolls would be the easiest tourneys and Steel would be the most difficult

You can swap as much attack bonus as you like, it wouln't matter a thing. yes LM sucks because it has nog range, nor bulk to survive the onslought, not because of it's attack bonus, even heavy melee sucks, I try to avoid treants for a reason, tho they have bulk they to have no range.
Ah now I see what you are going for :) I guess I wasn´t very clear on the whole swapping thing, I just threw it in as an afterthought. I agree with what you say, LM suck at everything (you forgot to mention initiative, which makes them get whackedd first by the units they are supposedly good against), and swapping attack boni would certainly not make them any better. What I wanted to say with that is that if they had different attack boni it would be different tourneys that are "meant for them" and whatever tourney is "meant for LM troops will be the most difficult tourney to play, because they always suck.
And I would add that the reason dogs are the best out of that sorry lot is that they at least don´t suck at range, only all the others :D

And yes also trees (or HM) are no good for much, which is why crystal and silk are not the easiest of all tourneys either. Their hitpoints are good and boosting them further works better with HM than any other units so the tourneys are still alright to play, although rather boring...

But if I do manual fights I never (well maybe 1% of the time) use any melee troops. Combinations of the 3 ranged types (mostly LR and Mage) are what i use, but to get back to the initial post: Not because ranged (well a partly because they are), but mostly because of their initiative, so I get to decide what happens on the field.

I am a snob who refuses to use troops in the spire, every unit that does in the spire could have gotten more KP or other goodies in the tournaments.
The second problem is that I use every booster for 2 tournaments, this means that I can only employ such strategy every other week, and have to spend some of my time boosters on advancing trought the spire in time, I rather use those on building more units.
Not for me, more troops won´t get me more points simply because I don´t have enough provinces I only have 450 or so provinces, I can do all my provinces 6 times every week (unless I get annoyed with the clicking), so I am happy to spend them in the spire on occasion, sometimes for the fun of it without any boosters or firebirds :D While I have boosters active I can finish about half my fights with 0 or near 0 losses anyway. So it doesn´t cost me troops at all. My reason for catering most of the spire atm is that I don´t play the newest chapter, which means I have a goods production running with nothing to do for them. Which is not a big deal for standard goods, but the sentient stuff just decays, so I figure I better use the stuff for something productive. Makes for happy game play if you have both enough troops and goods to do the entire spire (would be fun if I could play it twice a week) So I just pick and choose according to fancy. Since the spire does have an end it means there is no ambition beyond finishing, it´s just there to have fun with :)

But yes I love the 2 tourneys per 5day building, haven´t had a boost like that to my tourneys in a while lol. I just have to make sure to in the end stop the cooldown at 2% rather than 0 at least until they fix the bug on the App that hates 0 cooldown.
 

AstralSoul

Illusionist
btw I would like to advise investing in the flying academy instead of your needles, in about the next 2-3 chapters you unlock the the final merc camp units, and depending on your race either 3 or 4 of them are the best units in the game. so you might want to get both needles and flying academy on par with eachother so you can use the best units aviable.
Thanks :) Needles are 30, and one I have enough diamonds, 31. But yes, I am actually building flying academy tomorrow (with 6th-star tourney I will get the remaining broken shards I need.)

I am also working the MM, probably will do that one as my second level 30. Then the flying academy, as indeed, it has better troops. And I am elven, so yes, I am sure it applied :p
 

Gargon667

Scholar
Thanks :) Needles are 30, and one I have enough diamonds, 31. But yes, I am actually building flying academy tomorrow (with 6th-star tourney I will get the remaining broken shards I need.)

I am also working the MM, probably will do that one as my second level 30. Then the flying academy, as indeed, it has better troops. And I am elven, so yes, I am sure it applied :p
Absolutely it applies, the only question is what chapter you are. The Merc camp troops get their 3 star upgrades in chapter 14/15. before that they are useful, but not strictly necessary. Since I had my Needles at lvl 30 before I played chapter 9 I was in a similar situation as you. I eventually started upgrading the FA, after a while I also built the Merc camp, mostly for the fun of having a few more troops to play with (not for producing bulk troops) I had it at a useful level by chapter 15 (when I actually started using the Merc camp as much as or more than the barracks).
Anyway both MM and FA are absolutely necessary in the long run, but upgrading the MM becomes a pain later on (very high KP requirement). to be honest I never got around to do the last step from lvl 26 to 30 yet... One day I will... but right now I am trying to get the Construct AWs to 26.
 

AstralSoul

Illusionist
I am starting Sorcerers & Dragons :) Fully upgraded camp too, and building the FA atm. (Got lucky and one whole shard fell in the 8th slot hehe)
 
i think a lot of folks don't seem to understand one of the more important concepts of combat--targeting priorities that the computer uses for its own units and for your units when autofighting.

usually, when all units are full health and when a unit is in range to choose which target to attack, the computer stupidly ignores weaknesses and strengths based on unit type and almost strictly targets lt ranged 1st, mages 2nd, and heavy melee last. it never made much difference whether heavy ranged or lt melee were 3rd or 4th but i think lt melee are 3rd because i believe this is all based on total health, which is why the computer tends to target damaged units before healthy ones.

lt melee take lots of damage in scroll and dust fights in part due to range but i think an even bigger factor is that the mage and lt ranged enemies are targeted before the heavy ranged enemies that cause serious damage to the lt melee units that are needed to kill enemy lt ranged and mages. even if you use heavy melee or mages that are strong vs heavy ranged, they won't target heavy ranged when there are lt ranged and mages to attack.

lt ranged and mages are often ineffective at killing heavy melee in gem and marble fights because heavy melee are targeted last. so your LR and mages aren't attacking the units that they can cause the most damage to and are attacking LR and HR instead and those LR and mages that you use are being targeted early by computer units and a lot of them are chopped down before they get to attack the heavy melee.

i often prefer to use heavy melee to fight heavy melee because heavy melee, being targeted last, are very likely to live long enough to target enemy heavy melee units. of course i'd use mages or archers if the enemy was all heavy melee but often HM are mixed w/ LR or other unit types. so when my HR easily kill enemy LR units, my HM are supported by my very healthy HR units while they are attacking other HM units that have had their LR support eliminated. a heavy melee unit's weakness to mages and lt ranged usually isn't a factor if you know how to place units well. the HM unit won't be targeted by mages and archers since HM units are the last unit type that are targeted.

i think cerbs are terrible units in most cases. they can be good if you wanna trade a cerb for an enemy priest or blossum mage but usually it seems unwise to use a unit that charges miles ahead of its supporting units instead of axes or swords that are going to be closer to their HM support. not only will cerbs get counter attacked by almost every enemy on the right side of the screen but when they are attacked, your HM are too far behind to counter attack whatever is attacking your cerbs. anyone know why the germans lost badly at the battle of stalingrad or remember napoleon's ill advised trip to russia? the fact that you need more buildings and wonders to enhance cerb production adds even more to the stupidity of their use.
 

CrazyWizard

Scholar
Mages are just as mucht as a pain, if not more than those heavy ranged units, I always target mages first in manual combat in alle cases.
main reason is that if they hit you the special power that whacks your defense and attack make it that other units smash it to pieces and that it becomes incredibly crippled, try to kill units with you unit that just got attacked with an abbot. that units damage output will be horrible.

There are a few scripted exceptions but in general it targets the unit with the higest initiative before.
While the AI is stupif, do not forget both sides use the same AI, if the AI got very smart, then the enemy ALSO gets very smart, evening the battlefield.

I like many other players play on autofight.

In autocombat mixing and matching units should be avoided as much as possible, mixing cerberus with any other unit is indeed unwise.
My basic advise is always to use 5x the same units, on average this returns the best result. since we cannot see the map we are battling from there is no point in "analysing" the enemy and making a counter setup, maps with screw it up and both heavy losses and autolosses are more guaranteed.

The only exception are units of similar type (example golems and stategist, with the frog prince being an odd one.

As for cerberus, I can't get better results with the sworddancer compared to the cerberus, as long as you use 5 of them and not mixing units they do absolutely fine. the fact that they can sprint all 5 ahead and bite the enemy where it hurts on round one is it's main advantage.

It's the only unit that can overcome the enemies range, at the price for being not as strong and because victory springs comes late in the game it's horribly slow to train. this is why for a long long long time I only used them where I could not get away with sworddancers that trained 3x as fast.

These days is't all the same, so it doesnt matter.
 

AstralSoul

Illusionist
I am a snob who refuses to use troops in the spire, every unit that does in the spire could have gotten more KP or other goodies in the tournaments.
The second problem is that I use every booster for 2 tournaments, this means that I can only employ such strategy every other week, and have to spend some of my time boosters on advancing through the spire in time, I rather use those on building more units.
I can get that, work harder your needles, and others, have more armories, more workshops, "heat up your sun", and make sure your fellowship gets plenty of chests in the Spire. With boosts you will have enough troops for both the spire, and the tournament, especially if you have power buildings, and a tummy-happy fire duck.
 

CrazyWizard

Scholar
I can get that, work harder your needles, and others, have more armories, more workshops, "heat up your sun", and make sure your fellowship gets plenty of chests in the Spire. With boosts you will have enough troops for both the spire, and the tournament, especially if you have power buildings, and a tummy-happy fire duck.
Lol My needles is 31, my flying academy is 1/3 level towards 35 (most because I am lazy today), my stock of KP is well over 18.000 KP again,
Shrooms, springs and sapiens are still waiting to go to 31, as I ran out of orks and both the spire, spire library, tournament arena and the past 4 training ground updates are all fighting for my orks supply making it grow very slow.

For now my first goal is to max out every tournament, and I am not there "yet" and if I do get there, then I can spend boosters on unlocking more provinces for a tougher goal rinse and repeat.

I can do the tower by negotiating only and what else should I do with that giant pile of goods? I no longer need those in the tournaments
Goods and spells? it's all still growing and growing and growing. 185m goods, 4800 power of provinsion, 3800 ensorcelled endowment, 3000 magical manufactoring, using boosters, off course but preferred in a way I can max the amount of KP for my wonders, and the spire doesnt give me KP, it does give me more troops for the tournaments, where I can get those KP.

I am happy that at least now I can use parts of in / for the tower. I call it win/win 800+kp in the tournaments, and diamonds and other goodies in the spire.
 

AstralSoul

Illusionist
I am very KP focused too, but the Spire so far has been an aid, and a source of magical buildings, and spire sets.

Now, newly in sorcerers, they are starting to ask for not shy amounts of orcs, and mana for the diplomacies, and can't it all every week, but for now is bearable (not using power buildings this week). 269K orcs starting sorcerers is not bad (today at: 50% of the spire done, middle 2nd floor.), will invest them over level 31 needles, once I have diamonds for the other goods that it will take me chapters to get (but worth to have now that 4%, worth the orcs, and the diamonds.)
 

stucon

Seeker
When I started this thread 2 years ago I never expected it to still be going.
Happily pulverizing the bad guys these days. Needles at 29 and currently researching to get to level 30.
Does anyone ever use orcs in tournament fights?
 

Pauly7

Mentor
Does anyone ever use orcs in tournament fights?
Do you mean Orc Warriors and Orc Strategists? I use them because quite a lot of free ones come my way, but having a Human city I think the Paladins are good enough, probably better, so those Orcs are only there making up the numbers.
 

CrazyWizard

Scholar
I can do the entire Spire without using time boosters. (It may depend on your timezone, though)
Wow I had to read back what I wrote because I could not believe this quote,
This quote is taken so much out of context, I never ever use timeboosters in the spire there is no need for it no matter in what timezone you live. there is more than a day and a half wiggle room.

That post was about how I use my combat boosters and IF I wanted to fight AND use the boosters for the spire I would need to use time boosters to fight in the spire. It's a timing problem that only exist if you use combatboosters like I do. It has noththing to do with needing boosters to play the spire.
 

AstralSoul

Illusionist
I can do the entire Spire without using time boosters. (It may depend on your timezone, though)
Race the Spire with someone, it's fun :) You will get more than what you spent, and rest from it the entire week! (And save on resources, as if you race it, you will fight it all!)