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Has anyone done the math between Travelling merchants and BOOSTED manufactories?

There has been discussion and math between travelling merchants and unboosted manufactories. But has anyone done the math between boosted ones and travelling merchants- which one produces more per square?
 

Jake65

Sorcerer
Grabs some popcorn .......... :D

I don't think there's a definitive answer to your question but someone on facebook did a very interesting comparison which made me rethink my previous opinion of Travelling Merchants (which was that they weren't worth the space)

From a goods only perspective, boosted manus produce loads more per tile than Merchants, no doubt there.
But (and the whole point of the post on FB), the merchants produce goods for 'free'.
Manus require population and culture to exist and supplies to produce goods. In calculating the goods per tile of a manu, you should also factor in the number of tiles used by these 'supporting' residences, culture buildings and workshops. Which is hugely complex (@Sir Derf, your cue ;) ) as residences also give you coins, some culture buildings also give mana, seeds, etc.

For me, now that I need to produce sentient goods I've placed some Merchants to help keep the supply of standard goods flowing for manufacturing sentient. I figure they're worth their space just for that.

EDIT: I checked to quantify "loads more". Merchant 76/tile per 3 hour run. Boosted level 27 marble 117/tile per 3 hour. That's with a level 25 Mountain Halls. I believe I will be sprinkling "loads more" on a hefty slice of humble pie.......
Travelling Merchants just started looking even better than I thought.
 
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Thanks...I'm very interested in math side ( but my brain basically exploded when I tried to calculate it considering culture, population, cost and all that stuff.) Which is more cost/ space effective. I know boosted are better than non boosted. Also having Mountain hall may play effect here since it doesn't affect Traveling Merchants. Very good point about sentient' goods ( I'm not personally that far yet, but good to know in the future.). Manufactories also would give ranking points ( but that is less important to me) - my main goal is to save space and produce more.
 

Jake65

Sorcerer
As a side note, there's another guy on facebook (not sure if I can mention his name here as it might be his real name) who says he has a functional, effective, high chapter city with zero residences. All his pop (and presumably coins) comes from event buildings and wonders.

Another side note (sorry, once I get started...) after the previous FA I didn't replace my gems (T3) manufactory which I had teleported. I've got 4x T3 Merchants which produce half of what I need for full time sentient production. I get T3 from some event buildings and occasionally I do some cross-tier trading. I don't miss the gems manufactory and it opened up lots of space.

I'm actually not on facebook that often, contrary to what my comments might imply :D
 

Jake65

Sorcerer
my brain basically exploded when I tried to calculate it considering culture, population, cost
Likewise :) I gave up. I figured if I'm not short of space or goods then the layout is working.
 
Yeah, my own T3 manufactories are also currently in inventory - as I noticed that all my neighbors and fellows are constantly offering 3 star deals for them - while asking for T1 and T2. So it seems that most players produce too much T3 and they are struggling to trade them for T1 and T2.
 

schadenfreude

Conjurer
From a time perspective, I don't think they are worth it. I'd rather commit the pop and real estate early to put in factories, accumulate large amounts of goods much more quickly, and then later if I decide I want to completely store everything, put them all away. Now I have the space and population that the argument for traveling merchants favor too, but also the freedom to do whatever I want, whenever I want because I have plenty of goods, enough that Traveling Merchants is a solid No and not worth thinking about. For example, I can put all of my factories away during a FA and be fine for a long while. Traveling merchants means goods are barely trickling in. If I'm to be dependent on them, I would be tied to them for a lot longer.

Also having Mountain hall may play effect here since it doesn't affect Traveling Merchants.
Remember though, Mountain Hall's boost is off the base production and not the production after relic boosts. I have a lvl 13 MH in my first city, but it only gave me an extra ~300 steel per level 27 factory. I didn't even bother building one in my 2nd city because what is 300 more when you're making several thousand every 3hrs. Since I had a healthy excess of goods anyway, it didn't justify all the KPs so I skipped it. To me, Mountain Hall is a population wonder that is obviously not as efficient as Golden Abyss that happens to give you some extra goods. Disclaimer: I do fight the most expensive stuff though so I don't have a shortage of goods.
 

Sir Derf

Mentor
I just started Chapter 17, and am Marble/Crystal/Gem boost, and so shall walk through some numbers from my then point of view... Substitute your numbers to my computations for a better evaluation for your circumstances.

Base
Lvl 31 Marble, 25 squares, 750 Marble/3h, 250 Marble/h, 10.00 Marble/sq/h
Lvl 31 Crystal, 28 squares, 745 Crystal/3h, 248.3 Crystal/h, 8.87 Crystal/sq/h
Lvl 31 Gems, 30 squares, 920 Gems/3h, 306.7 Gems/h, 10.22 Gems/sq/h

700% Relic Boost
+70 Marble/sq/h, Total 80.00 Marble/sq/h
+62.09 Crystal/sq/h, Total 70.96 Crystal/sq/h
+71.54 Gems/sq/h, Total 81.76 Gems/sq/h

Supplies
Lvl 39 Workshop, 30 squares, 43,400 Sup/3h, 14,467 Sup/h, 482.22 Sup/sq/h

Lvl 31 Marble, 1,500 Sup/3h, 500 Sup/h, 20.00 Sup/Marble Sq/h, 0.041 Workshop sq/Marble sq/h
Lvl 31 Crystal, 6,880 Sup/3h, 2,293 Sup/h, 81.90 Sup/Crystal Sq/h, 0.170 Workshop sq/Crystal sq/h
Lvl 31 Gems, 27,200 Sup/3h, 9,067 Sup/h, 302.22 Sup/Gems Sq/h, 0.627 Workshop sq/Gems sq/h

Population
Lvl 39 Residence, 20 sq, 9200 Pop, 460 Pop/sq

Lvl 39 Workshop, 12,379 Pop, 412.63 Pop/sq, 0.90 Residence sq/Workshop sq
Lvl 31 Marble, 15,246 Pop, 609.84 Pop/Crystal sq, 1.33 Residence sq/Marble sq
Lvl 31 Crystal, 21,302 Pop, 760.79 Pop/Crystal sq, 1.65 Residence sq/Crystal sq
Lvl 31 Gems, 27,758 Pop, 925.27 Pop/Gems sq, 2.01 Residence sq/Gems sq


Roads

Lvl 39 Residence, 1/2 * 4 squares = 2 squares, 0.100 Dune sq/Residence sq
Lvl 39 Workshop, 1/2 * 5 squares = 2.5 squares, 0.083 Dune sq/Workshop sq

Lvl 31 Marble, 1/2 * 5 squares = 2.5 squares, 0.100 Dune sq/Marble sq
Lvl 31 Crystal, 1/2*4 squares = 2 squares, 0.071 Dune sq/Crystal sq
Lvl 31 Gems, 1/2 * 5 squares = 2.5 squares, 0.083 Dune sq/Gems sq

Culture
Dune St, 1 square, 430 Culture/sq
Ch17 Lava Codex, 4 squares, 7,500 Cult, 1,875 Culture/Codex sq

Lvl 39 Residence, 5,524 Cult, 276.2 Cult/sq, 0.1473 Codex sq/Residence sq
Lvl 39 Workshop, 8,701 Cult, 290 Cult/sq, 0.1547 Codex sq/Workshop sq

Lvl 31 Marble, 4,415 Cult, 176.6 Cult/Marble sq, 0.94 Codex sq/Marble sq
Lvl 31 Crystal, 11,333 Cult, 404.75 Cult/Crystal sq, 0.22 Codex sq/Crystal sq
Lvl 31 Gems, 9,690 Cult, 3,223 Cult/Gems sq, 0.17 Codex sq/Gems sq


Combined

Lvl 31 Marble sq

Produces 80.00 Marble/sq/h

Supplies requires and 0.041 Workshop sq
Population requires 1.33 + 0.041*0.90 = 1.37 Residence sq
Roads requires 0.1 + 1.37*0.1 + 0.041*0.071 squares of roads = 0.240 Dune Street
Culture requires 176.6 + 1.37*276.2 + 0.041*290 - 0.240*430= 670.084 Cult/sq, .357 Codex sq / Marble sq
Total sq = 1 + 1.37 + 0.041 + 0.240 + 0.357 = 3.008 squares

Overall 80 Marble/h using 3.008 squares, or 26.60 Marble/h/required sq


Lvl 31 Crystal sq
Produces 70.96 Crystal/sq/h

Supplies requires and 0.170 Workshop sq
Population requires 1.65 + 0.170* 0.90 = 1.80 Residence sq
Roads requires 0.1 + 1.80*0.1 + 0.170*0.071 squares of roads = 0.292 Dune Street
Culture requires 404.75 + 1.80*276.2 + 0.170*290 - 0.292*430= 825.65 Cult/sq, .440 Codex sq / MarbleCrystal sq
Total sq = 1 + 1.80 + 0.170 + 0.292 + 0.440 = 3.702 squares

Overall 70.96 Crystal/h using 3.702 squares, or 19.17 Crystal/h/required sq


Lvl 31 Gems sq
Produces 81.76 Crystal/sq/h

Supplies requires and 0.627 Workshop sq
Population requires 2.01 + 0.627*0.90 = 2.57 Residence sq
Roads requires 0.1 + 2.57*0.1 + 0.627*0.071 squares of roads = 0.402 Dune Street
Culture requires 3,223 + 2.57*276.2 + 0.627*290 - 0.402*430= 3,942 Cult/sq, 2.102 Codex sq / MarbleGems sq
Total sq = 1 + 2.57 + 0.627 + 0.402 + 2.102 = 6.701 squares

Overall 81.76 Crystal/h using 6.701 squares, or 12.20 Gems/h/required sq


I'll put up comparison Traveling Merchant numbers shortly

Edit: Corrected some Copy-and-Paste errors
 
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Sir Derf

Mentor
Ch17 Traveling Merchant I, II, III, 6 squares, 580 Resource/3h, 193.33 Resource/h, 32.22 Resource/h/TM sq

CH17 Traveling Merchant I is 121% efficient compared to Lvl 31 Marble (Using L39 Residence, L39 Workshop, Dune Street and Ch17 Lava Codex).
CH17 Traveling Merchant II is 168% efficient compared to Lvl 31 MarbleCrystal (Using L39 Residence, L39 Workshop, Dune Street and Ch17 Lava Codex).
CH17 Traveling Merchant III is 264% efficient compared to Lvl 31 MarbleGems (Using L39 Residence, L39 Workshop, Dune Street and Ch17 Lava Codex).

Edit: Corrected some Copy-and-Paste errors.
 
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Jake65

Sorcerer
Thanks for this @Sir Derf , your effort is much appreciated.
Very interesting to say the least.
I'm growing more fond of my travelling merchants :)
 

Sir Derf

Mentor
Bear in mind, Manufactories are useful for many Questlines and in the Fellowship Adventure in ways that Traveling Merchants can not substitute.

I might try and rework the original numbers based on Magic Residence/Magic Warehouse, and maybe on Event-based Population and Supplies buildings...
 

Hekata

Summoner
This is interesting indeed, but I suppose it also depends on how much one likes to play FA. You can't use MM spells on merchants and if you plan to clear some space you'd need a lot more teleports to remove all those merchants than to remove a few manus. (unless you get them in crafting often enough to replace them all after every FA)
 

Sir Derf

Mentor
Supplies
Ch 17 Magic Workshop, 30 squares, 82.000 Sup/3h, 27,333 Sup/h, 911.11 Sup/sq/h

Lvl 31 Marble, 1,500 Sup/3h, 500 Sup/h, 20.00 Sup/Marble Sq/h, 0.022 MW sq/Marble sq/h
Lvl 31 Crystal, 6,880 Sup/3h, 2,293 Sup/h, 81.90 Sup/Crystal Sq/h, 0.090 MW sq/Crystal sq/h
Lvl 31 Gems, 27,200 Sup/3h, 9,067 Sup/h, 302.22 Sup/Gems Sq/h, 0.332 MW sq/Gems sq/h

Population
Ch 17 Magic Residence, 20 sq, 15,900 Pop, 795 Pop/sq

Ch 17 Magic Workshop, 14,800 Pop, 493.33 Pop/sq, 0.621 MR sq/MW sq
Lvl 31 Marble, 15,246 Pop, 609.84 Pop/Crystal sq, 0.767 MR sq/Marble sq
Lvl 31 Crystal, 21,302 Pop, 760.79 Pop/Crystal sq, 0.957 MR sq/Crystal sq
Lvl 31 Gems, 27,758 Pop, 925.27 Pop/Gems sq, 1.16 MR sq/Gems sq

Culture
Ch 17 Magic Residence, 6,500 Cult, 325 Cult/sq, 0.1733 Codex sq/MR sq
Ch 17 Magic Workshop, 10,200 Cult, 340 Cult/sq, 0.18183 Codex sq/MW sq


Lvl 31 Marble sq
Produces 80.00 Marble/sq/h

Supplies requires and 0.022 MW sq
Population requires 0.767 + 0.022*0.621 = 0.781 MR sq
Roads requires 0.1 + 0.781*0.1 + 0.022*0.071 squares of roads = 0.180 Dune Street
Culture requires 176.6 + 0.781*325 + 0.022*340 - 0.180*430= 360.523 Cult/sq, 0.192 Codex sq / Marble sq
Total sq = 1 + 0.781 + 0.022 + 0.180 + 0.192 = 2.175 squares

Overall 80 Marble/h using 2.175 squares, or 36.78 Marble/h/required sq


Lvl 31 Crystal sq
Produces 70.96 Crystal/sq/h

Supplies requires and 0.090 MW sq
Population requires 0.957 + 0.090* 0.621 = 1.02 MR sq
Roads requires 0.1 + 1.02*0.1 + 0.090*0.071 squares of roads = 0.117 Dune Street
Culture requires 404.75 + 1.02*325+ 0.090*340 - 0.117*430= 1,035 Cult/sq, .552 Codex sq / MarbleCrystal sq
Total sq = 1 + 1.02 + 0.090 + 0.117 + 0.552 = 2.779 squares

Overall 70.96 Crystal/h using 2.779 squares, or 25.53 Crystal/h/required sq


Lvl 31 Gems sq
Produces 81.76 Crystal/sq/h

Supplies requires and 0.332 MW sq
Population requires 1.16 + 0.332*0.621 = 1.37 MR sq
Roads requires 0.1 + 1.37*0.1 + 0.332*0.071 squares of roads = 0.640 Dune Street
Culture requires 3,223 + 1.37*325+ 0.332*340 - 0.640*430= 3,506 Cult/sq, 1.870 Codex sq / MarbleGems sq
Total sq = 1 + 1.37 + 0.332 + 0.640 + 1.870 = 5.212 squares

Overall 81.76 Crystal/h using 5.212 squares, or 15.69 Gems/h/required sq



CH17 Traveling Merchant I is 88% efficient compared to Lvl 31 Marble (Using Ch17 MR, Ch17 MW, Dune Street and Ch17 Lava Codex).
CH17 Traveling Merchant II is 126% efficient compared to Lvl 31 MarbleCrystal (Using Ch17 MR, Ch17 MW, Dune Street and Ch17 Lava Codex).
CH17 Traveling Merchant III is 205% efficient compared to Lvl 31 MarbleGems (Using Ch17 MR, Ch17 MW, Dune Street and Ch17 Lava Codex).

Edit: Corrected some Copy-and-Paste errors.
 
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Sir Derf

Mentor
Also, while I factored in full 700% Relic Boost, I did not include Mountain Halls Production Boost, Magical Manufacturing Spell (with Elvenar Trade Center Boost), or Aureate Phoenix Feeding Bonus. Depending on your choices and play style, all the above may also factor in to some degree.
 

Sir Derf

Mentor
Supplies
Ch 17 Elvenade Booth, 6 squares, 32,000 Sup/24h, 1,333 Sup/h, 444.44 Sup/sq/h

Lvl 31 Marble, 1,500 Sup/3h, 500 Sup/h, 20.00 Sup/Marble Sq/h, 0.045 Elvenar Booth sq/Marble sq/h
Lvl 31 Crystal, 6,880 Sup/3h, 2,293 Sup/h, 81.90 Sup/Crystal Sq/h, 0.184 Elvenar Booth sq/Crystal sq/h
Lvl 31 Gems, 27,200 Sup/3h, 9,067 Sup/h, 302.22 Sup/Gems Sq/h, 0.680 Elvenar Booth sq/Gems sq/h

Population
Ch 17 Goblin Gift Shop, 9 sq, 7,200 Pop, 800 Pop/sq

Lvl 31 Marble, 15,246 Pop, 609.84 Pop/Crystal sq, 0.762 MR sq/Marble sq
Lvl 31 Crystal, 21,302 Pop, 760.79 Pop/Crystal sq, 0.951 MR sq/Crystal sq
Lvl 31 Gems, 27,758 Pop, 925.27 Pop/Gems sq, 1.16 MR sq/Gems sq

Roads
Ch 17 Elvenade Booth, 1/2 * 2 squares = 1 squares, 0.166 Dune sq/EB sq

Culture
Ch 17 Goblin Gift Shop, 1,650 Cult, 183.33 Cult/sq
Ch 17 Elvenade Booth, 4,600 Cult, 766.66 Cult/sq


Lvl 31 Marble sq
Produces 80.00 Marble/sq/h

Supplies requires and 0.045 EB sq
Population requires 0.767 GGS sq
Roads requires 0.1 + 0.045*0.166 squares of roads = 0.107 Dune Street
Culture requires 176.6 - 0.767*183.33 - 0.045*766.66 - 0.107*430= -44.52 Cult/sq, -0.024 Codex sq / Marble sq
Total sq = 1 + 0.767 + 0.045 + 0.107 - 0.024 = 1.895 squares

Overall 80 Marble/h using 1.895 squares, or 42.22 Marble/h/required sq


Lvl 31 Crystal sq
Produces 70.96 Crystal/sq/h

Supplies requires and 0.184 EB sq
Population requires 0.951 GGS sq
Roads requires 0.1 + 0.184*0.166 squares of roads = 0.131 Dune Street
Culture requires 404.75 - 0.951*183.33 - 0.184*766.66 - 0.131*430= 33.01 Cult/sq, 0.018 Codex sq / MarbleCrystal sq
Total sq = 1 + 0.951 + 0.184 + 0.131 + 0.018 = 2.284 squares

Overall 70.96 Crystal/h using 2.284 squares, or 31.07 Crystal/h/required sq


Lvl 31 Gems sq
Produces 81.76 Gems/sq/h

Supplies requires and 0.680 EB sq
Population requires 01.16 GGS sq
Roads requires 0.1 + 0.680*0.166 squares of roads = 0.213 Dune Street
Culture requires 3,223 - 1.16*183.33 - 0.680*766.66 - 0.213*430= 2,397 Cult/sq, 1.279 Codex sq / MarbleGems sq
Total sq = 1 + 1.16 + 0.680 + 0.213 + 1.279 = 4.332 squares

Overall 81.76 Gems/h using 4.332 squares, or 18.87 Gems/h/required sq



CH17 Traveling Merchant I is 76% efficient compared to Lvl 31 Marble (Using CH17 Elvenade Booth, Ch17 Goblin Gift Shop Dune Street and Ch17 Lava Codex).
CH17 Traveling Merchant II is 104% efficient compared to Lvl 31 MarbleCrystal (Using CH17 Elvenade Booth, Ch17 Goblin Gift Shop Dune Street and Ch17 Lava Codex).
CH17 Traveling Merchant III is 171% efficient compared to Lvl 31 MarbleGems (Using CH17 Elvenade Booth, Ch17 Goblin Gift Shop Dune Street and Ch17 Lava Codex).

Edit: Corrected some Copy-and-Paste errors.
 
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Silly Bubbles

Illusionist
I'd consider other things as well such as the cost of travelling merchants. They can be quite expensive considering the value of other things that you could craft in Magic Academy instead. Also, the cost of upgrading them when you move to a new chapter is quite high too.
Another thing to consider is what costs actually matter to you. For example, I have way more culture than I need so I wouldn't include that in the calculation. Also, when you boost your workshops and manufacturing with enchantments, it does change the calculation quite a bit.
 

Sir Derf

Mentor
All valid things to consider, some I mentioned, some I didn't.

Yes, they could be more expensive compared to other things you can craft, but that's more an apples-to-oranges comparison. Of more relevance on a cost basis would be to approximate the cost to produce from the ground up the Marble Manu, Residences, Workshops, Roads and Culture versus the cost to produce the Traveling Merchant, since again, we're comparing the ways to produce Basic Goods. I don't feel like running the computations.

Similarly, while mentioning the upgrade cost for a Traveling Merchant, again the proper comparison would be to the combined costs of upgrading the Marble Manu, Residences, Workshops, Roads and Culture. For TMs, would it be anything more than 1 Royal Restoration spell per square?

As to having way more Culture than you need, well, that's your choice. But it doesn't change the accounting that operating a Marble Manu will use some of that Culture.

As to boosts, I mentioned that they produce extra benefits.
 

Silly Bubbles

Illusionist
Yes, they could be more expensive compared to other things you can craft, but that's more an apples-to-oranges comparison.

It's called opportunity cost if you want to look it up and it's a very important concept to include in economics/accounting.
 
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