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Discussion Gathering of the Phoenix Cults

Hekata

Artisan
@Vorbog I understand how new players feel, but at the same time people who have been playing this game for a long time have earned all those advantages they have. Just like players willing to spend a lot of money have advantages over those who don't. The example of people having multiple fire phoenixes or bears that @Pauly7 gives being a good one.

There are other past event buildings, though, that people could make an argument that it's unfair they don't have them.

Yes, there were very powerful set buildings whose production exceeds by far all the evo buildings we had. However lately the devs have decided to actually punish the old players who have them by making it impossible to upgrade those buildings past a certain chapter. I am guessing the devs are doing it precisely so the old players wouldn't have that much advantage over the newer ones since the new buildings, as you said, are meh... But we earned those building, used RR spells/diamonds to upgrade them and to us it feels very unfair to loose them like that. A lot of old players feel like this whole event was done just so the new players could get a fire phoenix and that there wasn't anything for them in it. So the old players needs vs new players needs will always be a bit of an issue, it's inevitable.

The biggest issue is ofc the fire Phoenix since it is the most powerful building around. It does raise the question what will the players who have started to play after this event do? Will every Phoenix event be just an event to get 2019 artifacts? This building will always be an issue. And unless they nerf it (which I doubt since it would cause a riot of epic proportions here) they will always find ways to give some old artifacts. You just have to be patient. And in the meantime, as @RainbowElvira said, you still have the 3rd most powerful building in the game :)
 

DeletedUser9591

Guest
So now some imply that only old players are entitled to have the advantage? :) By that I mean superior buildings, superior performance, etc. Did they all spend lots of diamonds and money back in 2019 in order to evolve those phoenixes?

If the above is right, the newer players should not be bothered to join this game at all. No wonder that many are voting with their feet :)

Of course, one solution is possible, regularly create new worlds where every player would be on the same level playing field.

Bizarre discussion, bizarre game :)
 

Pauly7

Magus
Did they all spend lots of diamonds and money back in 2019 in order to evolve those phoenixes?
No. Some people spent diamonds. Some people spent huge amounts of money to get two or three Fire Phoenixes. I didn't spend any money on that event, and I got a Firebird up to level 10 and a Bluebird up to level 6. I used the recent event to finish off that one.
 

Hekata

Artisan
So now some imply that only old players are entitled to have the advantage? :) By that I mean superior buildings, superior performance, etc.

No one is implying that. But it's normal when you play a game longer that you have accumulated more things. And it's all relative. When I started playing this game there were no instants of any kind. Especially not time boosters and PPs. We had to work our way through all the chapters the hard way including the infamous orc chapter that takes an eternity. And then they appeared. So should I complain that newer players can get to where I am much much faster than I could? That's just the way this game goes. You join at some point and things are as they are. The coldfire phoenix is also a building that is only advantageous to new players whose scouting time is under 24h. The quests that require to scout a province are always easier for players in lower chapters. So is opening techs, etc... Those are just some examples. Not everything is an advantage only for advanced players.
 

DeletedUser9591

Guest
No. Some people spent diamonds. Some people spent huge amounts of money to get two or three Fire Phoenixes. I didn't spend any money on that event, and I got a Firebird up to level 10 and a Bluebird up to level 6. I used the recent event to finish off that one.

Then we are have a right to moan about fairness of this event :)

If the exchange rate was 1:1, I would not complain. To be honest I was expecting nothing else. There can be only one phoenix (one type) in the city, I never saw few same type phoenixes (it does not apply to the bears), so nobody would be given an unfair advantage.

I appreciate that newer players should not hope to get all those buildings as soon as they join, but we have once a year event now.
 

DeletedUser9591

Guest
No one is implying that. But it's normal when you play a game longer that you have accumulated more things. And it's all relative. When I started playing this game there were no instants of any kind. Especially not time boosters and PPs. We had to work our way through all the chapters the hard way including the infamous orc chapter that takes an eternity. And then they appeared. So should I complain that newer players can get to where I am much much faster than I could? That's just the way this game goes. You join at some point and things are as they are. The coldfire phoenix is also a building that is only advantageous to new players whose scouting time is under 24h. The quests that require to scout a province are always easier for players in lower chapters. So is opening techs, etc... Those are just some examples. Not everything is an advantage only for advanced players.

Of course there will be improvements in the game. Those are not a good example here. Probably comparable example would be, say, if newer players would have more advantageous ratio in tournament simply because they joined later :) it is just example to illustrate the effect of the buildings in question.

I personally do not see many advantages coldfire phoenix could give, it is not in the same league with 2019 phoenixes :)
 

Hekata

Artisan
You can't expect newer players to be on the same foot as older players. It takes time. This is a slow city building games. To be honest I was surprised Inno gave as many old artifacts as they did since they have been cutting on everything lately. You just have to be patient. I have waited for my fire phoenix almost a year too :)
 

Timneh

Artisan
This building will always be an issue. And unless they nerf it (which I doubt since it would cause a riot of epic proportions here) they will always find ways to give some old artifacts.

I doubt that causing a riot on the forum would bother the devs one bit. If they think the fire phoenix needs to be nerfed then that is what they will do. They will just stick their heads in the sand and wait for the anger to subside just like they did when they nerfed the Bellspire/Lighthouse.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
The simple explanation is that the coldfire phoenix was very poor offering. Another reason is that the newer players must do certain things to catch up, otherwise this game quickly becomes boring. Now let's read the forum and listen to some older players (in game environment), then it becomes obvious that fire phoenix is a must have if one plans to stay here longer and perform well in tournaments, do the spire, etc.

My argument about fully evolved buildings is based on the fact that the space in this game is extremely limited. This is the number one thing I dislike. I do not find this restriction neither enjoyable nor challenging; it is rather annoying. Therefore I prefer not to have partially evolved buildings in my city. Even with the full set of evolves not every building has a place in my city.

A bit off topic... If those evolving buildings are offered one after another, premium expansions should be offered at the fixed price as well.
If you think you can catch up with veteran players, you can for started throw that out of the window immediately.
The only way you can catch up is if they quit the game

People like myself have been accumulating ranking points for years now, of you want to equalise that you need decades to perform better than those people.
Someone with 176.000 bonus points collected in the past years (1000 points is the maximum per week atm and only 1 person gets those points) wil take
176 weeks aka 3 years 20 weeks, and in that time that player is not allowed to gain a single additional point, if thhat player still plays and you get 100 points more a week than such a person it will take 34 years!!!

If your goal it to reach the same heigts you joined the game at least 4 years to late.
The only way to surpass these people is to simply wait untill they quit. thats the only way.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
Of course there will be improvements in the game. Those are not a good example here. Probably comparable example would be, say, if newer players would have more advantageous ratio in tournament simply because they joined later :) it is just example to illustrate the effect of the buildings in question.

I personally do not see many advantages coldfire phoenix could give, it is not in the same league with 2019 phoenixes :)

Actually newer players DO have a long term advantage in the tournaments, they are able to skip unforced SS upgrades, an option we never had
a. tournaments never existed
b. tournament rules were changed between the woodelves and sorceres and dragon chapters only then was the disadvantage of researching SS upgrades for tournaments introduced. everyone who played at that time already had those researches completed, and thats something we cannot undo.
 

Pauly7

Magus
I can understand that newer players may feel they have missed out with certain things like Fire Phoenixes. With the FP particularly, Inno has actually offered those players a chance to get in on it with this last event, but that's the first time it has ever happened - so it should be seen as a good bonus. As @Hekata said there were many other great buildings going back years that new players did not get, particularly the powerful set buildings.

Another thing that happens is an event like the last one was aimed specifically at new players. Coldfire would be a great item to have for anyone who can scout multiple provinces in a single day. To everyone is it's next to useless.

To me that looks like more than one way that Inno has offered a "leg up" to new players in one event. @CrazyWizard is right, though. You can't ever hope to catch up with the established players who have been building cities for 3, 4 or more years. I actually think that Elvenar allows people at all stages in the game to compete in many different disciplines. You don't get that with a lot of games. It can't all be equal for everyone all the time though.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
@Vorbog I understand how new players feel, but at the same time people who have been playing this game for a long time have earned all those advantages they have. Just like players willing to spend a lot of money have advantages over those who don't. The example of people having multiple fire phoenixes or bears that @Pauly7 gives being a good one.



Yes, there were very powerful set buildings whose production exceeds by far all the evo buildings we had. However lately the devs have decided to actually punish the old players who have them by making it impossible to upgrade those buildings past a certain chapter. I am guessing the devs are doing it precisely so the old players wouldn't have that much advantage over the newer ones since the new buildings, as you said, are meh... But we earned those building, used RR spells/diamonds to upgrade them and to us it feels very unfair to loose them like that. A lot of old players feel like this whole event was done just so the new players could get a fire phoenix and that there wasn't anything for them in it. So the old players needs vs new players needs will always be a bit of an issue, it's inevitable.

The biggest issue is ofc the fire Phoenix since it is the most powerful building around. It does raise the question what will the players who have started to play after this event do? Will every Phoenix event be just an event to get 2019 artifacts? This building will always be an issue. And unless they nerf it (which I doubt since it would cause a riot of epic proportions here) they will always find ways to give some old artifacts. You just have to be patient. And in the meantime, as @RainbowElvira said, you still have the 3rd most powerful building in the game :)

The fire phoenix is a really good building but I would not consider it the best. to me since the introduction of the spire bears are way more powerfull,
In most tournaments fire phoenix can be interchanged with combat buildings for a similar effect.
But neither have to be a problem for the future, just like space is the limiting factor of our towns so is petfood for our pets.
It could simply be fixed in the long run by introducing more and more and more pets, at a certain point you need to make choices where to spend your pet food. This is a possible balance option for the future.
Already are some of us implementing pet food saving methods to get the maximum out of our pets. the more pets are introduced that are similar good in a different way the more we have to play with our food and make choices.

So the solution is simple and way more elegant than nerfing buildings.
 
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Pauly7

Magus
Already are some of us implementing pet food saving methods to get the maximum out of our pets. the more pets are introduced that are similar good in a different way the more we have to play with our food.
Nice idea, but that would mean coming up with some new ideas that are as attractive as bears and phoenixes. There's been no sign of it since then.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
Nice idea, but that would mean coming up with some new ideas that are as attractive as bears and phoenixes. There's been no sign of it since then.

How long was the time between phoenix and bears? Currently they focus on non combat, just like stonehenge, mermaids, and winter magic its just a matter of time before they decide to maken another combat related building, you can't create a combat centric building every event since not every player likes combat.

also if each event was combat centric then the interest in these buildings would also dwindle significantly as for those already playing have at a certain point enough of them to handle, you need plenty of time in between to create a new audience (new players)
 

Pauly7

Magus
Neither of the Phoenix and Bear events were combat-centric because each had three options that catered for different tastes. The Mermaids event was just for catering and the Stonehenge building, I suppose, helped with mana/seeds and a few sundries. The Christmas event was catering focussed. Coldfire gave a few different things to help smaller players. By all accounts the May prize will focus on sentient goods, tools, etc. I don't think we've ever seen an event where the grand prize leaned just towards the military - correct me if I'm wrong.

Military offerings tend to be more powerful to the majority because people realise that there isn't a balance between fighting and catering. For this reason it follows that Inno would like to increase catering power and hence we may see more goods-related grand prizes on the horizon moreso than combat ones.

In order for the useful alternatives to become a reality they will have to give even more catering prizes and make them so powerful that catering becomes a real tournament/spire option.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
Neither of the Phoenix and Bear events were combat-centric because each had three options that catered for different tastes. The Mermaids event was just for catering and the Stonehenge building, I suppose, helped with mana/seeds and a few sundries. The Christmas event was catering focussed. Coldfire gave a few different things to help smaller players. By all accounts the May prize will focus on sentient goods, tools, etc. I don't think we've ever seen an event where the grand prize leaned just towards the military - correct me if I'm wrong.

Military offerings tend to be more powerful to the majority because people realise that there isn't a balance between fighting and catering. For this reason it follows that Inno would like to increase catering power and hence we may see more goods-related grand prizes on the horizon moreso than combat ones.

In order for the useful alternatives to become a reality they will have to give even more catering prizes and make them so powerful that catering becomes a real tournament/spire option.

Catering is a spire option, I do nothing else thats how I divide my resources
I cater in the spire and I fight in the tournaments this way neither of the 2 bites in eachothers recources

The funny part is, that all those pop culture buildings are now like a tombstone on the neck of players who like to negotiate in the spire.
Spire and tournaments also complement eachother nicely, spire rewards the tournament players with valuable timeboosters for more units and the tournament brings in PoP and EE spells which brings unlimited supplies and improved coins to the table for negotiating in the spire.

On no world are goods an issue for for my spire ambitions yet, it's either supplies (below elvenar chapter) or coins (elvenar + beyond)
But it does require you to sometimes rethink and optimise your town for it.

As for pandabear, it was a joke, I can't consider it "trading centric" it was more a beautiful animal and fan favorite for many as pandabears are incredibly popular even if it had no stats at all some people would still build it because the love it.
Both the brown and polar bear were tournament/fighting centric thats at least 2/3 tournament/fighting based.

Just give it time, they will come up with some other pets in the future that we really like, just give it time. I am in no hurry.
 

Pauly7

Magus
Catering is a spire option, I do nothing else thats how I divide my resources
I cater in the spire and I fight in the tournaments this way neither of the 2 bites in eachothers recources
I actually agree and do exactly the same. In the back of my mind something tells me I should aim to fight both, but the more troops I get I just do more in the tournaments. As I've always found the Spire to be secondary I've thought to myself "well that's what I can do with all those goods. I'm down to 3 manufacturies of each of the first 3 tiers and I can't imagine myself ever running out.
On no world are goods an issue for for my spire ambitions yet, it's either supplies (below elvenar chapter) or coins (elvenar + beyond)
Ditto again
The funny part is, that all those pop culture buildings are now like a tombstone on the neck of players who like to negotiate in the spire.
I see what you're saying... because people get less coins now. More recently I always keep my culture bonus above 200% and I've started appreciating the buildings that deliver coins, such as GA, Tower of Fire, Storm/Fire Phoenix. It's funny how the Spire suddenly brought with it a big relevance towards coin collection.
As for pandabear, it was a joke, I can't consider it "trading centric" it was more a beautiful animal and fan favorite for many as pandabears are incredibly popular even if it had no stats at all some people would still build it because the love it.
Both the brown and polar bear were tournament/fighting centric thats at least 2/3 tournament/fighting based.
I hadn't thought about the Polar Bear. I didn't ever build it because I didn't see that it had a really good purpose. Tournament cool down is a "nice to have", but I don't have much trouble managing the 6 rounds in the standard time. A bit of a reduction is useful, but I think Timewarp is a better option and no need for pet food. Admittedly I did build the Panda instead of the Polar Bear. It doesn't do a lot for me though.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
I actually agree and do exactly the same. In the back of my mind something tells me I should aim to fight both, but the more troops I get I just do more in the tournaments. As I've always found the Spire to be secondary I've thought to myself "well that's what I can do with all those goods. I'm down to 3 manufacturies of each of the first 3 tiers and I can't imagine myself ever running out.

Ditto again

I see what you're saying... because people get less coins now. More recently I always keep my culture bonus above 200% and I've started appreciating the buildings that deliver coins, such as GA, Tower of Fire, Storm/Fire Phoenix. It's funny how the Spire suddenly brought with it a big relevance towards coin collection.

I hadn't thought about the Polar Bear. I didn't ever build it because I didn't see that it had a really good purpose. Tournament cool down is a "nice to have", but I don't have much trouble managing the 6 rounds in the standard time. A bit of a reduction is useful, but I think Timewarp is a better option and no need for pet food. Admittedly I did build the Panda instead of the Polar Bear. It doesn't do a lot for me though.

If you combine polar bear with timewarp is can quickly turn into a pet food saver, as this combination allows you to play the tournaments in a single day. while a week requires 3 pet food for the fire phoenix alone polar + fire requires only 2.
Playing the tournament in a single day also allows you to gain tournament advantages in other parts as well, this is the reason I really focussed on the timewarp when it came out, so I could tourney in a single day. but it still required me to wake up way to early on a saturday morning and be occupied for the entire day every two weeks
These days I finish the tourney in 4 hours and have the entire day to enjoy myself with other hobbies.
just think about it and you might see what I mean. I absolutely love my polar bear that thing is absolutely awesome.
 

DeletedUser9591

Guest
If you think you can catch up with veteran players, you can for started throw that out of the window immediately.
The only way you can catch up is if they quit the game

People like myself have been accumulating ranking points for years now, of you want to equalise that you need decades to perform better than those people.
Someone with 176.000 bonus points collected in the past years (1000 points is the maximum per week atm and only 1 person gets those points) wil take
176 weeks aka 3 years 20 weeks, and in that time that player is not allowed to gain a single additional point, if thhat player still plays and you get 100 points more a week than such a person it will take 34 years!!!

If your goal it to reach the same heigts you joined the game at least 4 years to late.
The only way to surpass these people is to simply wait untill they quit. thats the only way.

Ohh... I am not trying to catch up with someone who started playing few years ago. Running through the chapters would not be fun at all. What I am trying to say is that some buildings are becoming something like must have. Fire Phoenix is one of them. Nobody would suffer if during the latest event players would be offered to fully evolve any of 2019 phoenixes.

I do not understand the argument when somebody says that new players cannot have this buildings and must wait for another year or so now, as it was impossible to get fully evolved building without spending diamonds. Or even better, why to give Fire Phoenix to newbies at all? :)

To be honest, I play different games on & off. Real life usually takes precedence :) This time round I was hoping to find my old game still live, which had many overlapping features with this one and some advantages like less repetitive tasks, no time dependence like weekly tournaments, events were one can choose difficulty upfront and will know what will be the reward at the end of this event, NH to multiple players with one click, more focus on individual game and less dependence on others. Sadly, it ceased to exist after developers started pursuing very aggressive revenue raising strategy (then many players are unhappy, some may complain and many just leave the game). When I joined this one, I was looking whether I can choose the version which is released recently. I am fully aware that comming too late to the game like this probably means better not to join at all :) This discussion is very good example, when older and newer players cannot find a common language :) I do not know 4 years history of this game, hence some comments do not make any sense to me...
 

DeletedUser9591

Guest
Another thing that happens is an event like the last one was aimed specifically at new players. Coldfire would be a great item to have for anyone who can scout multiple provinces in a single day. To everyone is it's next to useless.

I am a new player, but I cannot scout multiple provinces per day without dumping many time boosts. What means that Coldfire's feeding effect might be useful only to the players in first few chapters only (I would argue that probably up to chapter 5).
 
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