DeletedUser7901
Guest
I know this has been asked before but can't find post, I want to start an AW/ FP share in our fellowship, whats the best way to form it
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SoggyShorts
Illusionist
Assuming FP = forge points or something and you mean KP as in Elvenar's Knowledge Points,
One of the best and easiest ways is the NetZero method.
You need at least 7 participants for it to work.
You may need a week or 2 to get it running smoothly
You need to be active in tournaments as a fellowship
If all that is ok here's how it works:
1. you announce to the group in a message what your next AW is
2. your FS members donate exactly enough KP to break even on rewards.
E.G. if the rewards are 20,15,10,5,5 then that is how much they donate.
3. you fill your own wonder with KP reserving some KP packs to use in other players wonders
Other methods can be found on gamersgems.com
One of the best and easiest ways is the NetZero method.
You need at least 7 participants for it to work.
You may need a week or 2 to get it running smoothly
You need to be active in tournaments as a fellowship
If all that is ok here's how it works:
1. you announce to the group in a message what your next AW is
2. your FS members donate exactly enough KP to break even on rewards.
E.G. if the rewards are 20,15,10,5,5 then that is how much they donate.
3. you fill your own wonder with KP reserving some KP packs to use in other players wonders
Other methods can be found on gamersgems.com
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m4rt1n
Adept
We use KP swap threads in our fellowship, 5,10,15 and 20 KP Swaps.
Each player posts in the message the name of their wonder they want help on, then reloads the message and adds the amount of KP of the particular message to the players wonder posted directly before them.
It works well for us as you can only gain kp, as you get back the amount you give on your wonder as soon as the next player posts.
It's important to reload the message each time before giving the kp though to sort out the timing of 2 players posting at roughly the same time.
Each player posts in the message the name of their wonder they want help on, then reloads the message and adds the amount of KP of the particular message to the players wonder posted directly before them.
It works well for us as you can only gain kp, as you get back the amount you give on your wonder as soon as the next player posts.
It's important to reload the message each time before giving the kp though to sort out the timing of 2 players posting at roughly the same time.
SoggyShorts
Illusionist
I've never been a fan of those since it's pretty random who gets rewards and you can have 2 players who donate an equal amount but one makes a profit while the other pays.
Simpler to just self level and announce when you are almost done and let your FS mates donate to get rewards- works out the same and you aren't limited to 5,10,15,20 KP
m4rt1n
Adept
Importantly though no one makes a loss, as you get back all KP donated and the rewards are a bonus.
RainbowElvira
Sorcerer
Every method is better than not to have some kind of KP swap method. IMO, the KP swap threads are not that bad. As Martin stated, no one makes a loss, it's easy to understand, and maintenance free (at least in theory). We had a 5 KP thread running for months, and it served us well. With increased tournament participation, and the availability of KP producing buildings, we could not pump enough KP through the thread. Since we found multiple KP threads error prone, we switched to the Wonder Society approach - https://elvengems.com/ancient-wonders/wonder-society.
You can choose 3 different methods - KP thread, Wonder Society and Quick Fill. Each of these work, they all have their pros and cons.
You can choose 3 different methods - KP thread, Wonder Society and Quick Fill. Each of these work, they all have their pros and cons.
LazyTony
Sorcerer
Quick Fill sounds very open to sniping by outsiders, especially when players are rune hunting. All it takes is for one outsider to pay 21KP for a 20KP chest and a rune and 4-7 FS mates have lost out.
I love the idea of Wonder society in theory, but we tried it and it really is a mess to sort out if someone leaves the FS, goes inactive etc. If you have a really tight reliable group that doesn't change often this might be the best way to go. Unfortunately its pretty high maintenance for one or 2 folks to keep updated.
KP threads are simple, low maintenance and immune to sniping. The rewards aren't distributed exactly evenly, this is it's downside, although as previously mentioned no one can actually lose out, unlike quick fill. I have never seen a player make a "profit" from KP threads in our FS, at best you can expect to get back 1KP for every 4 or 5 you put into them. The problem comes if players try to mix self fill and swap threads, and only swap the last bit of the required KP. You should swap all or nearly all of the KP needed to level.
I love the idea of Wonder society in theory, but we tried it and it really is a mess to sort out if someone leaves the FS, goes inactive etc. If you have a really tight reliable group that doesn't change often this might be the best way to go. Unfortunately its pretty high maintenance for one or 2 folks to keep updated.
KP threads are simple, low maintenance and immune to sniping. The rewards aren't distributed exactly evenly, this is it's downside, although as previously mentioned no one can actually lose out, unlike quick fill. I have never seen a player make a "profit" from KP threads in our FS, at best you can expect to get back 1KP for every 4 or 5 you put into them. The problem comes if players try to mix self fill and swap threads, and only swap the last bit of the required KP. You should swap all or nearly all of the KP needed to level.
DeletedUser7901
Guest
thanks folks, and yes meant KP not FP
Pauly7
Magus
I'm with @m4rt1n . We have several swap threads running. It's simple, requires no maintenance and no one loses. In general the more you take part the more you will take out. Sure, as @SoggyShorts says it is possible for one to slightly work against you in terms of the reward, but in the long run you tend to be rewarded in comparison to how much you put in - which is as much or as little as every individual player chooses.
SoggyShorts
Illusionist
It can be more or less avoided if you apply the following strategy:
The idea is to dump your own KP into your wonder on day 2 of the tournament when you are clearing all of those 5 KP provinces,
Then on Saturday when everyone gets FS rewards you announce and apply the steps listed above.
Sure a sniper could get you in those final 5 minutes, but they'd have to be pretty quick.
With smaller wonders, you could do the whole deal on day 2 or with bigger ones some of it day 2, some day 5 and some Saturday.
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m4rt1n
Adept
That would work well in a fellowship where half the fellows don't live down under, my Australian and New Zealand players are on their early morning Sunday lie in and the guy in Vietnam is in the middle of a good nights sleep as the tournament finishes.
The 4 KP swaps I have running seem to work very well and everyone in the fellowship benefits whatever timezone.
@SoggyShorts your preferred KP swap method will work well on a time zoned server like possibly the US server but we play on the International Server and play the game with players from around the world that don't have a dedicated server.
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SoggyShorts
Illusionist
And the bottom line is that whatever works is basically going to be the best.
If chests aren't being missed or sniped and KP isn't being wasted, then whatever you are doing is perfect.
MinMax Gamer
Illusionist
Same here, we've been running 5 different KP swap threads for a long time time, and it works very well. Never underestimate simplicity of maintenance in success of implementation
DeletedUser1829
Guest
There are a number of options all with a variety of pros and cons. It would help if you had some goals for a AW program which could help define "best". A person can argue every method is the best if they focus on certain aspects of the program.
A very simplified version, if you want - then:
- Least maintenance - self level
- reward chests - endless swaps / wonder society
- highest rewards - wonder society
- fairest for all members -wonder society / self level (if people give exactly what the chest rewards)
- Level of KP donations - are all members donating similar amounts of KP a week? If so any option will work. If however your trying to balance donations of 100 KP a week with 500 and 1,000 then swap threads can be problematic, especially if equity is important
- Time zones / play times - Endless swaps rely on other players to donate first, if your spread around multiple timezone or only 1 or 2 people in odd-times then they can be completely left out, especially if they are a large KP donor. This was actually the reason I first stopped doing endless swaps because we had players in US, Europe and Australia.
- Mobile players - Currently they can't donate to others. If you have a large group of these it can greatly impact your options. If they occasionally get on a pc it can let you do a combo of self-levelling and another option.
Importantly though no one makes a loss, as you get back all KP donated and the rewards are a bonus.
That is one of many reasons why I avoid endless swaps and its a big issue for me. To me paying 100% for a wonder when I can pay 80% is a very big loss.
Wanted to respond to a few different ideas, then realised I had quoted mostly lazy tony. Sorry wasn't picking on you and and I am too lazy to find someone else to quote now, hope that's ok.
Quick fill is just self levelling. Honestly, who cares if a "sniper" donates 21 KP for a 20KP chest, all the better for the person and the fellowship. Most snipers dump and run and hope for the best. The point of the quick fill is around the 20% to go mark you ask for members to top the wonder off. At this point you can spot any snipers and automatically decide whether to push them down a chest or leave them alone. Usually the wonder is completed in 5-30mins, so the sniper would have to be actively online at that time and looking at that specific wonder to upset the balance. That is pretty low odds in my books, and something I have never seen happen.
Why is leaving or going inactive an issue? Sometimes they leave with a deficit and sometimes not. I think my current fellowship has had about 25 people leave the program (that is over a very long time, 2+ years). Currently our group is up 245KP
, but it will fluctuate. The tracking of averages helps mitigate the risks. We have even had 1 or 2 people return and they just pick up where they left off.In terms of maintenance, no argument there. it does take a decent amount of work. The automation of spreadsheets helps a lot and there are some other minor tricks to help. Regardless you do need at least 1 dedicated person, ideally with some helpers if the group gets big or for holidays. If you are doing endless threads and someone is tracking all their own donations, that's the person you want
, chances are they can do the society in less time. This is definitely one of the biggest hurdles to overcome, understanding is the other big one.Actually I found the opposite. They are low maintenance for "admin" but higher maintenance for everyone else, the more threads the more this can be. We often found (across multiple fellowships, servers, etc.) that eventually someone messes up and you get a double donation. We also found this method was the most prone to sniping, because everyone is butterflying around the threads/wonders and not watching when the sniper comes in.
If a person is trying to ensure they get chests then this method becomes very high maintenance for an individual. If they ever implement a way to track our donations then this would change.
I also find that self-levelling and wonder society are the least bothered by sniping, in fact I normally say go for it
free KP to my fellowship.
LazyTony
Sorcerer
Soggy's method, as explained in his post, would have every chest in a wonder taken by fellows placing exactly the amount of KP the chest will give them - in other words they should end up net zero on KP but with some runes. If an outsider gets the top chest with 1 extra KP, then 4-7 fellows have just lost KP. I take Soggy's point that its pretty unlikely because there is only a short time window when this is possible.
This is an example of a wonder in my FS that the owner has been filling with our swap threads. As you can see, the only way for outsiders to snipe is to massively overpay (in which case, great, the owner just got a nice bonus). Because all of the contributors have already had back the exact amount of KP they have spent, they can't lose out to any outsider chasing horribly expensive runes anyway.
https://gyazo.com/6a6cce693605c3e3b030888166749191
SoggyShorts
Illusionist
In the extremely unlikely event that this happens, the player who's wonder filled will have gained XX "free" Kp that he could easily reimburse his fellows with.
SoggyShorts
Illusionist
But you're still correct that the rune would be lost... I don't know of any system that has an equitable distribution of runes.
In our wonder society we just kinda wing it and let players who might need a rune have the top spots.
I suppose the Quick-Fill method might be easiest to set up a rotation for top chests, but it kinda defeats the point of having a fast and simple system.
Pauly7
Magus
I don't understand this. They are no maintenance for anyone.
So long as everyone posts firsts, then reopens the thread and donates it shouldn't ever happen. I think with 6 swap threads used all the time we've had maybe three or so errors in about the last 6 months. It's a negligible loss or gain for anyone.
Most of our AWs levelled finish up with at least 6 or 7 of us donating over 50KP. I've never really understood the "sniping" complaint, but if somebody wants to pop in and donate 50KP to one of our AWs to take a small reward then awesome.