Discussion Fellowship Adventures coming again - with changes!

[Gargon667]

Thanks for the explanations. I think that we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I was thinking the same But since i do enjoy discussing the details of this game I always prefer people to disagree with me rather than people that agree with me, as it let´s me keep doing what I enjoy

Indeed you can, but in almost all cases it isn't the most efficient option, (just as there is a big difference between the value in using diamonds for recipe flipping and buying badges).

Agreed, so why is timeboosting hats your preferred way of doing things? And how does it explain that hats are not a limiting factor because you can time boost them? While other are limiting because time boosting is inefficient?

At least I think that was your argument before?

How many thousands of hours of time boosters does Swag use in a weekly tournament. My guess is at least least half of this entire FA requirement. A perfect Spire alone provides around 5000 hours of time boosts to the FW on a weekly basis, and rushing time boosts in the Academy can often return more than you consume (if you focus on crafting them).

I suspect that for many players (including myself), the bigger consideration is the diamonds needed to generate the corresponding 2000 Arcane Residue badges needed to get to 150k. I don't know exactly what that would cost, but assume something in the 50000 to 100000 diamonds range. Either that collectively needs to be won in the Spire (possible for a top FW, but it would certainly take longer than the time boosts), or it needs to be bought (which moves the FA towards the Play2Win model).

I suppose you are right, I haven´t done the math and am not intending to I am not saying it is not possible to do. I am saying if we put that many time boosts into one badge, we could just as well put them into any other badge. it is not what defines the limiting factor.

The diamonds I haven´t done the math for either, it has quite a bit of variation as well. I personally don´t care about the diamond cost as much as the CC in the VV badge, but if I valued diamonds higher I could make far more VV badges by crafting all good VV recipes instead of only the actually useful recipes to me. Overall the numbers of diamonds necessary in my wasteful way o doing it still doesn´t cost me more than I gain with regular gameplay. Of course I would have to step it up if I wanted to double my contribution (as my part of doubling our overall FA result from 80k to 150k). But I think still quite acceptable But yes I guess diamonds have higher value to you than they have to me, so this might be another point where we simply have to disagree based on personal preferences...

 

[Sir Derf]

Point 1: The two only badges that cannot be boosted are badges that are made in the tourney, bringing us back to the initial argument that tournaments are the limiting factor for high scoring FA results.

Are you referring to Ghosts and Marbles? I dispute the Marbles as being unboostable. Yes, it's easier to acquire Relics through the tourney, which has a hard limit, but you can also Craft them, and crafting has no limit provided you are willing to boost and spend diamonds.

 

[Gargon667]

Are you referring to Ghosts and Marbles? I dispute the Marbles as being unboostable. Yes, it's easier to acquire Relics through the tourney, which has a hard limit, but you can also Craft them, and crafting has no limit provided you are willing to boost and spend diamonds.

You can also get them from finishing map provinces (especially with EE), but none of that produce a number of importance, you can even get them from NH chests

 

[Far Reach]

so why is timeboosting hats your preferred way of doing things? And how does it explain that hats are not a limiting factor because you can time boost them? While other are limiting because time boosting is inefficient?

I take this is a question about how I'm framing and addressing the optimisation problem, rather than one about Elvenar per say. I'll outline my approach. (Obviously this is slightly simplified, since I'm ignoring resources other than boosters in the summary below.)

I'm first considering how many badges of each type we can produce without using any time-boosters at all. I'm then looking to see which badge is the sticking point (i.e. the first one we run out of in the pit) and (assuming that it can be time-boosted) allocating boosters to its production until it is no longer the stopper. I'll then start allocating some boosters to whatever the next problem badge is, and proceed in this way until the boosters run out. Potentially we'll finish up sharing them between lots of badges, but the first blocker will finish up consuming a higher proportion.

My expectation is that last FA you spent lots of boosters on troop production and (as you said) none on Academy production. Using Boosters in the MA is a typically a more efficient way of producing hats than the tournament (since the troop cost of fully completing a far out province is usually more than 8 hours of time boosters). The other badges the tournament provides are irrelevant at this stage since you can't use them without hats.

My estimates were that enough boosters were available for us to generate hats to the point that some other badges (including Ghost in a Bottle which requires more boosters per badge) would run out. Technically the best time-boosting strategy would have hats and ghosts running out simultaneously, but I described ghosts as the limiting factor because it is much harder to generate extra badges of that type (beyond some point).

Of course the above estimates depend on some assumptions on what resources are available. A sustainable approach by a top FW prioritising the FA above everything would have all of the boosters acquired since the previous FA to deploy. I thought that scores of 150k+ would be possible with considerably less boosters than this, although I didn't do that calculation particularly carefully.

 

[Gargon667]

I take this is a question about how I'm framing and addressing the optimisation problem, rather than one about Elvenar per say. I'll outline my approach. (Obviously this is slightly simplified, since I'm ignoring resources other than boosters in the summary below.)

I'm first considering how many badges of each type we can produce without using any time-boosters at all. I'm then looking to see which badge is the sticking point (i.e. the first one we run out of in the pit) and (assuming that it can be time-boosted) allocating boosters to its production until it is no longer the stopper. I'll then start allocating some boosters to whatever the next problem badge is, and proceed in this way until the boosters run out. Potentially we'll finish up sharing them between lots of badges, but the first blocker will finish up consuming a higher proportion.

My expectation is that last FA you spent lots of boosters on troop production and (as you said) none on Academy production. Using Boosters in the MA is a typically a more efficient way of producing hats than the tournament (since the troop cost of fully completing a far out province is usually more than 8 hours of time boosters). The other badges the tournament provides are irrelevant at this stage since you can't use them without hats.

My estimates were that enough boosters were available for us to generate hats to the point that some other badges (including Ghost in a Bottle which requires more boosters per badge) would run out. Technically the best time-boosting strategy would have hats and ghosts running out simultaneously, but I described ghosts as the limiting factor because it is much harder to generate extra badges of that type (beyond some point).

Of course the above estimates depend on some assumptions on what resources are available. A sustainable approach by a top FW prioritising the FA above everything would have all of the boosters acquired since the previous FA to deploy. I thought that scores of 150k+ would be possible with considerably less boosters than this, although I didn't do that calculation particularly carefully.

That is a very good point, I think I agree with you that timeboosting the MA is more efficient than boosting troops past a certain point in the tourney, hard to say where that point is though. And that is assuming that we only do the tourney for the FA, which of course isn´t true. We´re playing the tourney already and therefore those hats are "free", but to push the FA result past the limits of the tourney, I agree timeboosting the MA is more efficient than boosting the tourney higher, as long as you have made enough of the other tourney badges.

I guess one could say that time-boosters are the limiting factor for FAs, but since those are more or less available in equal amounts to all gold medal FS, I would still say that the tourneys are the deciding factor for winning the FA (maybe deciding is better than limiting?)

 

[Far Reach]

I guess one could say that time-boosters are the limiting factor for FAs, but since those are more or less available in equal amounts to all gold medal FS, I would still say that the tourneys are the deciding factor for winning the FA (maybe deciding is better than limiting?)

I think that we broadly agree on most of this. Where we might still differ, is that I think that the limiting factors will vary greatly according to the priorities of FWs (and individual players). Ideally I'd like to reduce these disproportionate effects in order to make the FA more of an open and fair competition.

To give some examples:

Swaga and its players seem to focus on tournaments and the FA. You score highly in the tournament each week, in addition to consistently strong performances in the FA. A similar fellowship which focussed solely on the FA might limit itself to 10 chests in non-FA weeks, reserving most of its time boosters for FAs. Such a FW should easily beat Swaga in the FA (and probably by a huge margin), even if its activity levels, organisation etc. were a little worse.

You implicitly identify "gold medal FS" as the main FA competition in the quote above. Many players and FWs getting Spire Gold Medals appear to have a focus on city building and development. Diamonds are needed for many aspects of this (Premium Expansions in particular being a huge diamond sink) and I suspect that most such players are (like me) reserving all of their Spire diamonds for such city infrastructure purposes. Other than by purchasing diamonds, such FWs simply can't produce enough Arcane Residue to compete at the top of the FA.

Back in article #551 you suggested some badge requirement rebalancing:

Same as I have always proposed: reduce requirement to 1 VV, which effectively means 1 badge per crafting. It will still be an in demand badge, but it will make it more available.

Offset the price reductions in these badges by increasing requirements of "useless" badges in order to reduce the amount of unused badges after the FA and turn these nuisances that are hardly worth collecting into something of value:

I applaud the aim here, but would also like to increase the options for different Fellowships and Players. In particular I'd suggest that (at least in the pit) two of the hardest badges: Arcane Residue and Golden Bracelets should be able to be substituted for one another. In other words the requirement would be for 5 badges, each of which was either a residue or bracelet. We might also wish to do the same for other pairs of badges (Witches Hats and something else). Of course we could also adjust badge requirements on top of this.

 

[Sir Derf]

Where do you get 30 tourney provinces from?
The last expansion is awarded for 525 provinces, and there are only 9 types so there are clearly many more than 50 of each for anyone in the late game.
I'm pretty sure I've seen players state that they have 700ish provinces cleared. which would be over 150 Ghosts for just that one player.

30 vs. 40, I misread a recent post which I know believe was talking about typical typical, not max. Also, I was low on sleep.
As to that there was a number, I thought that the reorganized Tourney system had a max number of tourneys? I realize more are avaiable as you scout more, but I thought that this maxxed out at 40? The question is not "How many provinces have they cleared?" but "How many Tourney Provinces does the Tourney system provide to them?" For those with 700ish provinces cleared, do they have the nearly 66 Tourney Provinces tht could provide?

 

[MinMax Gamer]

I realize more are avaiable as you scout more, but I thought that this maxxed out at 40? The question is not "How many provinces have they cleared?" but "How many Tourney Provinces does the Tourney system provide to them?" For those with 700ish provinces cleared, do they have the nearly 66 Tourney Provinces tht could provide?

There is no difference with provinces available vs the old tournament. IIRC some people managed to clear 35K+ points under the new system.

 

[SoggyShorts]

As to that there was a number, I thought that the reorganized Tourney system had a max number of tourneys? I realize more are avaiable as you scout more, but I thought that this maxxed out at 40?

Nope.

For those with 700ish provinces cleared, do they have the nearly 66 Tourney Provinces tht could provide?

Yep.

If there was a cap, you'd
1. See constant complaints about it
2. See a 3 or 4-way tie in tournaments a lot.

 

[Gargon667]

Swaga and its players seem to focus on tournaments and the FA. You score highly in the tournament each week, in addition to consistently strong performances in the FA. A similar fellowship which focussed solely on the FA might limit itself to 10 chests in non-FA weeks, reserving most of its time boosters for FAs. Such a FW should easily beat Swaga in the FA (and probably by a huge margin), even if its activity levels, organisation etc. were a little worse.

Of course a FS that gains the same amount of resources as we do, but saves them all for the 1 FA week, would easily beat us, but I find it very unlikely that this will happen. There are not many gold medal FS out there that have the same intake as we do. And as you say most of those are not into FAs at all... We are good, but we are far from perfect, it would be interesting to see someone really try and beat us, I am sure that would make us try harder too

I applaud the aim here, but would also like to increase the options for different Fellowships and Players. In particular I'd suggest that (at least in the pit) two of the hardest badges: Arcane Residue and Golden Bracelets should be able to be substituted for one another. In other words the requirement would be for 5 badges, each of which was either a residue or bracelet. We might also wish to do the same for other pairs of badges (Witches Hats and something else). Of course we could also adjust badge requirements on top of this.

Also a great idea how balancing of badges could be done! Either separate or in combination. I don´t mind which way, as long as it is done! This of course has to be a process and won´t be perfect in one step, but at least the goal must be to create a better balance every time.

 

[Pauly7]

As to that there was a number, I thought that the reorganized Tourney system had a max number of tourneys? I realize more are avaiable as you scout more, but I thought that this maxxed out at 40?

If there were a maximum number of tournament provinces available of 40, then the max score would be 10,800 points and a bunch of people would all get the exact same score each week. I think that score is bettered every week on every server. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Lelanya]

Hey y'all
With a new event out on Beta, I've a lot of work to do for my consortium of Fellowships. Are we going to essay an FA, or has that ship sailed? What say you, @Herodite?

 

[Pauly7]

Question: "Fixed issues with the Fellowship Adventures quest checkmark" Does this mean that the FA is on the way to the live cities?
Marindor: This bug was indeed a blocker for the Live release, so probably yes

Just saying.

 

[Elfclaw the Mighty]

I wish Inno would give a bit more notice of when FAs are upcoming...2 days is the norm I think (which isn't long if you have to rejig your city). I guess it's done like that for a reason...

 

[Jackluyt]

The FA starts on Thursday March 11th, 2021!

Read all about it here: https://tinyurl.com/4lnqn3k3
This is our Adventure Note from Beta world with Prizes, Waypoint Map and Spreadsheet for those who use those; the Live version should be similar or identical.

 

[Sir Derf]

Thursday, March 11th (CET)?

Does that mean Midnight (CET)?

 

[Pauly7]

They've posted the exact same wording for the FA announcement for the last three adventures, even though we mention each time that they don't put a start time.

 

[Pauly7]

Thursday... on the dot.

 

[C-Nymph]

It's always 11:00am CET. So it will last exactly 6 days and 8 hours.

Edit: There's 40 hours and 36 minutes left on the timer for the start, so that indeed corresponds with Thursday 11:00am CET.

 

[Stucon]

Thursday... on the dot.

Between Wednesday and Friday it is then