Discussion Fellowship Adventures coming again - with changes!

[Hekata]

Now you can't win first place just by demolishing all your buildings and making massive shanty towns, as was the case originally; now one needs some planning and skill and a well-developed city

I see it as the opposite. Before you needed planning on how to fit as many WS/T1s in your city and to coordinate between fellows so that you end up with the needed amount of all badges. Now all you need is diamonds to spend to shuffle the recipes. So the advantage goes to those strong FS who do the Spire a lot (preferably gold medal) and are willing to spend those diamonds in the MA. (Which also can produce some friction in a FS if some members are willing to spend them on the FA and some are not.)

 

[SoggyShorts]

@SoggyShorts FAs, as it states, it is a collective fellowship challenge. There is no need to spend since there is always a strategy to counter the challenge.

Several players have 5, 10, 15, even 20 Moonstone sets. And many players have 1-3. A player with a lot of Moonstone sets can take the weight for this badge, for example. Same as with other badges, some players will get more and different badges than others. It is the kicker of this challenge

You're talking about clearing a path on each stage, or even clearing all of them, not winning the FA, right?
Or are you saying that the first place teams didn't use any diamonds to refresh their recipe list?

I suppose it's possible that a team of 25 dedicated players time-boosted every MA flip could get enough residue for 100+ pit rounds, but we already have teams with 60,000+ points with over 48h left, so I'm a little skeptical that no one is using diamonds to flip recipes

 

[Pauly7]

@foolfighter and @SoggyShorts are exactly right. FA success is now determined by diamonds spent making Arcane Residue badges and therefore nothing else really matters.

Except, in a sense, the other badges still do matter. Rather than solving a problem, Inno has made it worse, because the biggest FA teams still make shanty towns as big as they always have. They now just spend more diamonds, CCs and timeboosters trying to make enough residue badges to keep up with the big numbers of everything else.

In the old style adventure, the big teams would make as much as they can of everything. Now it doesn't matter how organised they can be because the top spots are all about the biggest "residue spenders".

The new format works well for teams who just want to complete a path and get the artefacts... or even for those wishing to clear the waypoints on all three maps and call it a job well done... but to be successful in an FA (i.e. compete to win), making Arcane Residue badges for the pit is the only thing of relevance. As I've said before, the FA is designed as a competition between fellowships so you can't say the primary objective should just be finishing a path.

@SoggyShorts FAs, as it states, it is a collective fellowship challenge. There is no need to spend since there is always a strategy to counter the challenge.

Several players have 5, 10, 15, even 20 Moonstone sets. And many players have 1-3. A player with a lot of Moonstone sets can take the weight for this badge, for example. Same as with other badges, some players will get more and different badges than others. It is the kicker of this challenge

I don't understand this comment. Moonstone Library sets have little bearing on the outcome at the top, because CCs aren't the deciding factor. In the current climate you can craft every recipe that you see for a week (which, incidentally, is so wasteful on resources because half of it is rubbish) and you still won't have made enough residue badges to compete for the top places... So the only way to do it is to spend diamonds flipping the recipe selections.

 

[BlueBlou]

Is it only me or do the rest of you also see different values of VV for the different colour codexes? Red is worth 5 VV, but the yellow and green 9 VV.

 

[Pauly7]

Is it only me or do the rest of you also see different values of VV for the different colour codexes? Red is worth 5 VV, but the yellow and green 9 VV.

I can't say I've noticed. I try not to craft any codexes.

 

[MinMax Gamer]

I can't say I've noticed. I try not to craft any codexes.

Lava Codex is basically the best base culture building in the game, at least on a per-square basis. Great for ramping up that culture bonus when you don't need remaining space for anything else.

 

[AuroraBolt]

I don't understand why you don't earn points when claiming the 3rd stage reward like you do when claiming the other 2. For the first time ever, our young fellowship managed to scrape across the line, but as an added kick to the guts for our hard efforts, we now find ourselves slipping out of the top 100 because the pit only rewards 50 points at time? Seriously? How stingy are the devs from this Inno company? Yeah I know, we'll chalk it up to experience and try to do more switch points instead of just following the paths next time.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I don't understand why you don't earn points when claiming the 3rd stage reward like you do when claiming the other 2.

I never actually noticed that you get points for claiming the prizes on stages 1&2... How many did you get?

 

[AuroraBolt]

sorry Soggy, I didn't take notice of the actual amount of points, it was the ranking points that I was looking at, as we surged ahead quite a few places. So when we were claiming the third, I did take note and nothing happened, no extra points and we didn't advance any places for doing so. It was to say.... disappointing

 

[Pauly7]

sorry Soggy, I didn't take notice of the actual amount of points, it was the ranking points that I was looking at, as we surged ahead quite a few places. So when we were claiming the third, I did take note and nothing happened, no extra points and we didn't advance any places for doing so. It was to say.... disappointing

The only ranking points you get from a Fellowship Adventure are based on the final standings. There is a nominal amount of RP applied to the fellowship as a whole and it isn't enough to make any noticeable difference. I don't believe anything happens at the end of any of the other maps, aside from the fact that you gained a further 300 FA points for opening the final waypoint before you close the map.

 

[Gargon667]

@SoggyShorts FAs, as it states, it is a collective fellowship challenge. There is no need to spend since there is always a strategy to counter the challenge.

Several players have 5, 10, 15, even 20 Moonstone sets. And many players have 1-3. A player with a lot of Moonstone sets can take the weight for this badge, for example. Same as with other badges, some players will get more and different badges than others. It is the kicker of this challenge

that is true for small FS oy completing maps. Noone trying to win an FA will get there without spending diamonds. That is as much a fact as I can think of in this game. Having said that I don´t mind spending diamonds on flipping the MA over, I would be doing that anyway FA or not, so it doesn´t change my diamond use other than that I now do it concentrated during the FA and then save up again until next FA, a minor inconvenience.
The amounts of diamonds necessary to do that are not huge and can easily be covered by gold medals in the spire. So i would not even call it Pay2win. I think buying individual badges with diamonds in the pit can be called pay2win, but is expensive enough to make it unlikely. I don´t know how much it would have cost the second place FA to take the win away from us by buying badges in the pit, but I guess it would have run Inno for a month lol...

And contrary to popular belief in here, the VV badges have not been the problem for us at 80k FA points. We could have gone far higher than that if we had needed only those badges.

The actual "end point" this time was set by the witch hats, a badge produced mainly in the tourney. So if Inno keeps this practice up as is, the winner (at least in very high scoring worlds) will be decided by who wins the tourney. That I find a much bigger problem than spending a few thousand diamonds. It negates the whole point of having a separate competition.
yes, hats can be time boosted, 8h per badge, but this puts a serious limit on anyway. And yes one can have more spire sets to free up the MA to making hats, but all these things don´t change the fact that hats put a lid on the FA. you can push the limit a bit, but you cannot change the fact.
As I explained making the hat the deciding factor is an idea far worse than even the VV. Nobody needs a competition that is decided by the outcome of another competition. The hat is decided by tourneys (which only one team can win), while the VV is decided by gold medals (which everybody in theory can win, there are no additional prizes for doing more than 1330 points). Not saying the VV is a good idea, i am just saying the hat is worse.

Solution to the hat problem:
1. Make it cheaper: Again the old argument: If 1 CC is enough for 1 druid staff badge , what is the logic of asking for more than 1 enchantment of a different kind for a different badge? This change would nearly double the available hats and eliminate the problem. It would not become too easy either. Other badges are still far easier to create. It would simply end up somewhere in the middle.
2. A "workaround": Make sure the FA covers at least 2 different tourneys (like first FA of the new type). I t doesn´t double the available badges, but at least takes the edge off and give more chances for everybody. Solution 1 is still the better one, but solution 2 does not need any programming whatsoever, only a more intelligent planning of starting day of the FA.

Solution to the VV problem:
Same as I have always proposed: reduce requirement to 1 VV, which effecively means 1 badge per crafting. It will still be an in demand badge, but it will make it more available.

Offset the price reductions in these badges by increasing requirements of "useless" badges in order to reduce the amount of unused badges after the FA and turn these nuisances that are hardly worth collecting into something of value:

AW badge: Increase to 20 or 30 KP per badge (can be chapter based)
Elven guard badge: Increase to triple (based on availability of troop production buildings)
The relics badge: Increase (maybe double?)
The encounter badge: Increase (maybe 50%?)
The brewer badge: double (production time has just been cut down from 5 to 2 minutes!)

 

[BlueBlou]

Guys, just keep in mind we all have different games and different amounts of resources. What is true for your city, or what your fellowship can do in general, may not be true for the bigger player base.

From my viewpoint, I can only see that the suggested increase in badge requirements by @Gargon667 will benefit the top tourney and spire fellowships more than others. The divide will just get bigger between those that can and those that struggle.

At the end of the day, the FA is a team effort where, in general, a full 25 enthusiastic participating cities will get you further than just a few dedicated players.

 

[Gargon667]

From my viewpoint, I can only see that the suggested increase in badge requirements by @Gargon667 will benefit the top tourney and spire fellowships more than others. The divide will just get bigger between those that can and those that struggle.

I do not suggest an increase, that is only half the suggestion. In fact I suggest more balance between too difficult and too easy badges. That should benefit every player and every FS. Everybody across the board complains about the VV badges, I suggest to make them much easier than they are. I am less sure how easy witch hats are for the semi active FS, that struggle, but I would assume that it would help them a lot if they could receive more hats and instead dedicate more of their time to making for example druid staffs in the MA.
Also I forgot to mention the change I always suggest be made to the Bracelets badge: Allow ALL produced goods to be counted rather than only T1, so as to disrupt game play less, another change that would benefit the less ambitious FS (the ones going for the win don´t mind swapping out all their factories).
Because I do not believe that a decreased difficulty is necessary the decrease in difficulty of the above badges has to be counteracted by increasing the difficulty somewhere else. And since an overall greater balance is the target of the above suggestion I opt for making the badges that are very easy more difficult, smaller towns would probably get the biggest gain if more badges were chapter progress dependent. However this shouldn´t be taken too far, so as to not introduce another factor that punishes progress.

 

[Far Reach]

And contrary to popular belief in here, the VV badges have not been the problem for us at 80k FA points. We could have gone far higher than that if we had needed only those badges.

The actual "end point" this time was set by the witch hats, a badge produced mainly in the tourney. So if Inno keeps this practice up as is, the winner (at least in very high scoring worlds) will be decided by who wins the tourney.

I haven't waded through the analysis of badges myself, but this summary certainly looks convincing. I checked the other Elvenar International Servers however, and noticed that the highest overall score in this FA was by Tournamentals (Win) at 91k. Interestingly their tournament score (although very respectable) was lower than Swagafythee (which won the Feyndral Adventure with 81k). The Nest came second in the Win FA with the same score as Swaga (81k) but their tournament score was lower still (92k if I read Elvenstats correctly). If I've interpreted all of this right (and it is quite possible that I haven't) then other top scoring FWs are not finding hats the sticking point in exactly the same way.


On a more general point, the real strength of the traditional FA for me is its ability to galvanise a fellowship for a period of a few days. Activity and organisation are crucial, with other aspects [such as city size, ranking, wonders etc.] being much less important. It would be a shame for Inno to de-emphasise that through a focus on diamonds for VVs (whether from the Spire or elsewhere) or the tournament (for hats, ghosts in a bottle etc.)

 

[Pauly7]

If I've interpreted all of this right (and it is quite possible that I haven't) then other top scoring FWs are not finding hats the sticking point in exactly the same way.

Hats have the potential to be a sticking point, but it's easily solved. For a FS with a lot of resources they just need to drop a lot of time boosters on the MA to boost however many Witch's Hats that they need.

 

[Far Reach]

Hats have the potential to be a sticking point, but it's easily solved. For a FS with a lot of resources they just need to drop a lot of time boosters on the MA to boost however many Witch's Hats that they need.

yes, hats can be time boosted, 8h per badge, but this puts a serious limit on anyway. And yes one can have more spire sets to free up the MA to making hats, but all these things don´t change the fact that hats put a lid on the FA. you can push the limit a bit, but you cannot change the fact.

I crunched some numbers, and estimate that the current limit for a strong Tournament and FA orientated fellowship (such as Swagafythee, or indeed my own if there were sufficient commitment) is determined either by Arcane residue or Ghosts. Several weeks of saving up time boosters in a Spire gold medal fellowship should provide enough to drive the MA sufficiently to meet the Witch Hat, Druid Staff, Tiara and CC requirements for scores of 100k. (This actually ignores other contributions such as Moonstone sets and the tourney, and also time boosters from crafting - which would potentially be pretty much enough by themselves.) The other badges are less demanding (given a suitable city build etc.)

It looks to me that a score of 150k is realistic in the current FA, but then the number of tourney provinces completed (for "Ghost in a bottle" badges) would start be the crucial factor. This would of course (as Gargon points out) require diamond spending though. Another requirement would be a collective willingness to prioritise the FA over the tournament (and focus time boosters on the former). Finally (at least for FWs without many moonstone sets), Scroll Fragments (!) could possibly be a pinch point.

 

[Pauly7]

I've not looked at the maths @Far Reach, but I've never seen a situation where Ghosts have been anything but plentiful. I've also never been in a 100k FA team however. Have you factored into your calculations that Spire encounters towards Ghosts and you can complete two full Spires in an FA?

 

[Far Reach]

I've not looked at the maths @Far Reach, but I've never seen a situation where Ghosts have been anything but plentiful. I've also never been in a 100k FA team however. Have you factored into your calculations that Spire encounters towards Ghosts and you can complete two full Spires in an FA?

My figures were back of the envelope, and I didn't explicitly consider double Spires. It does change the pinch point a bit, but I don't think that it will make a huge difference. Consider that every 6 pits (300 points) we need 5 x ghosts and therefore 15 tourney/spire completions. A strong tourney fellowship with an average of 30 fully completed tourney provinces per city would get 30x6x25 = 4500 completions from the tournament and 2 x 48 x 25 = 2400 from a perfect gold medal run. That is enough for 138k FA points (on top of the first 30k or so from the map which are easier). Maybe ghosts become the sticking point around 160k or 170k ?

I agree though that a FW isn't likely to need to be concerned about ghosts until they are way over 100k FA points.

 

[Gargon667]

If we talk theoretically nearly any score is possible with long enough planning. If you think you´ll run of ghost bottles, you just have to increase your FS tourney score from 200k to 300k etc there is no absolute limit. But the higher you go the more important the tourney becomes.

The difference between Swag and other top FA results is most likely that we didn´t try for a high score (we only had 22 towns playing this time, so record attempts were not interesting), we didn´t make Hats in our MAs until the very end. We didn´t use any time boosts either. basically 80k is what the hats from a 200k tourney give. I would say that that is the reason why others with lower tourney scores have higher FA scores, the differences are not very big. So yes we can definitely stretch that result if we try, by using timeboosts and by using more Spire Libraries etc. But the point stays the same: Linking FAs to tourney performance is dumb. You can doctor the syptoms, but the underlying cause is still there.
I am not saying to not use tourneys at all. that is fine, but it should not be the limiting factor already at scores below 100k FA points. If Witch hats become the limiting factor at 150k FA points I wouldn´t care, that is not a commonly reached score at the moment. But a lot of FS reach scores around half that, so in those regions tourneys should not have such a huge influence on the result. Reducing the requirements for hats by half should solve this problem easily and simply for the foreseeable future.

 

[Far Reach]

I am not saying to not use tourneys at all. that is fine, but it should not be the limiting factor already at scores below 100k FA points. If Witch hats become the limiting factor at 150k FA points I wouldn´t care, that is not a commonly reached score at the moment. But a lot of FS reach scores around half that, so in those regions tourneys should not have such a huge influence on the result.

It might not have been very clear in my previous post, but I'm asserting that tourneys are not the limiting factor below 100k (or even below 150k). In the same way that a very high score will require MA diamond spending, and a willingness to destroy/rebuild a big part of ones city - I suggest that the use of time boosters for Witches Hats is essential too. I'd expect that the FWs which commit to all of these, will be the ones which do best.

... tourneys should not have such a huge influence on the result. Reducing the requirements for hats by half should solve this problem easily and simply for the foreseeable future.

My analysis above (questioning that tourneys matter here) might well be wrong, but Swags experience last tourney doesn't (in itself) demonstrate this (since you didn't use time boosters for crafting spells). It might help the case (to reduce the requirement for hats) if you could give your own figures on how significant the tournaments are when each fellow commits a couple of hundred hours of boosts to crafting spells.