Fair Trading

[m4rt1n]

You might be right, but it takes me 30 seconds to collect coins twice a day and if we didn't have the time we wouldn't be playing this game I guess.In my city (dragons) 1 elixer (lvl 19) produces 4K (9h), steel (lvl 21) also produces 4K (9h). So I would need 16 steel manu's to produce an equal amount of 'ingame value'. Its there in plain sight.



Coins and supplies are free and everything produced using them are also for free and following up on that math all goods produced are equal in value. The only difference in producing them is the space they take up to produce and therefore difference in space is the only facter that should affect the rating.



Agreed, but I don't think telling new players 16K T1 is equal to 1K T3 is helpfull.I've been playing for about 2 years now and I've never seen a trade offering 16K T1 for 1K T3, not even from players stating there is nothing wrong with the current rating.

See that is the difference in play between us, as you say you spend 30 seconds twice a day, I spend several hours a week manual fighting tournaments and mostly do 9 hour overnight then 5x3 hours productions. I assume how you play and how often you play affects your perspective of the trades and their values.

I have 15 manufactories, 5 of each tier boost in my city on Arendyll and see very often the burden especially on supplies to keep T3 going. I often have to spend an hour doing 15 min supplies with the spells and enjoy doing so.

 

[DeletedUser7733]

Most of my trades are 2* and a few are 3* to compensate for the trader fee when it comes to Marble which is very short in our fellowship and my Neighbours, even with 175 provences scouted.

It's great that you're happy with but you still need to analyse it and adjust it when you need to.

 

[DeletedUser5754]

See that is the difference in play between us, as you say you spend 30 seconds twice a day, I spend several hours a week manual fighting tournaments and mostly do 9 hour overnight then 5x3 hours productions. I assume how you play and how often you play affects your perspective of the trades and their values.

I was talking about collecting coins, not about tournament or production time . I run 4*3h and 1 9h.
Restarting manu's and WS takes about 5 minutes every time I collect/restart. So thats about 30 min/day.
Tournament is a different story, maybe you should check my tournament results, I'm on Arendyll (same as you), but this does not effect my opinion on trade rates.

Currently I can bearly keep up with tools, but this is not because of the manu's needing that much. Barracks eats 20K/h and makes the supplies needed for manu's peanuts.

 

[m4rt1n]

It's great that you're happy with but you still need to analyse it and adjust it when you need to.

You must be pulling a quote here from a very long time ago @CleverAngel777, as it happens September, last year, it's almost November so 14 months ago. I'm very surprized to still be in the same discussion as my game play and everything else has changed so much in that time. Maybe you should have started a new discussion instead of dragging up thoughts from over 12 months ago and everyones position on things then.

Edit: Apologies, you must be pulling quotes from other threads on the forum, not this one, but still not cool as our thoughts change over time.

 

[DeletedUser7733]

Sorry, it doesn't change the fact that you wrote it. Yes, our positions keep changing but the system stays rigid. It again shows that it's up to us to decide what's fair or unfair.

 

[m4rt1n]

Sorry, it doesn't change the fact that you wrote it. Yes, our positions keep changing but the system stays rigid. It again shows that it's up to us to decide what's fair or unfair.

I wrote that in September 2017, of course it matters and I consider your dragging up from the past so far back TROLLING me and shows your argument is struggling in common sense now so suggest everyone now completely ignore your nonsense.

 

[DeletedUser5306]

Although this post had started nicely with players sharing candidly their experience about this “taboo” subject (and I don’t get why it should be by the way), some partisans of the “change the system” or “the change the stars” or whatever, have injected into the discussion a dose of negativity which has taken over this thread..

Space is indeed one important issue in this game but not the only, as I mentioned before, there should be other components coming into the equation: supplies, coins, population and culture.. I have not taken the time to make all these fancy calculations, and it’s not my place nor yours but Inno’s maybe? cause personally I don’t have any interest in going into a vain crusade against a system already in place. If you don’t like it, take it up to Inno, and stop implying that any player has any impact on it or is at fault.
Funny thing is you might even be right about the levels of imparity between tiers (maybe this is the reason why, and I stated, I never do 1:3 trades??) - BUT - the way you are introducing your ideas, initially judging those who don’t share your opinion, and pushing for them to align, is not really constructive to say the least.
The arguments are not fundamentally coming from the difference in opinion but the way that individual expressed opinions are misjudged.

“Its weird that people blaming you for making assumptions, assume you take this game to serious in the same post.”
Of course! And I tried to be as polite as possible, my apologies if I wasn’t, but assuming that me, and all the others before “will do anything to defend the cross tier trades” (heavy really..) because we “benefit hugely to the detriment of the innocents”… (heavy again)... I am a positive person and I will always try to play with honor but saying that we all kind of dupe new players is mind-blowing.
I also genuinely enjoy playing tournaments, at high levels, spending huge amount of time and resources, what’s wrong with wanting to recover with some trades between high lvl neighbors or even my fellows, which sometimes happen to be cross tier trades because I propose what available I have left to offer? It shouldn’t be a concern of yours and you shouldn’t be coming into general conclusions that are completely counterfactual. Also my trades are so substantial than no new player can be and I quote “drawn into making unfair trades” anyway… So not all the newbies are being duped by the cross tier wolves, believe me.
As a matter of fact, I also play my character at very low levels and cross tier trades have helped me progress on the contrary. When I didn’t have built my tier3 manufactories yet, and I needed those mats to progress or wanted to finish a quest, I was happy to find a helpful cross trade, and if I got less than what I was supposed to, well be it, it’s just pixels in the end…. I am sure we all have more important things to deal with than this… I do!

I’ll finish with this quote:

Onwards and Upwards,, and remember, Its just a game, with pretend resources, in a pretend town, tucked away in the depths of the internet. Its all just numbers on a screen. So smile, enjoy your game, and be happy that others find enjoyment in different ways.

 

[Killiak]

Unfortunately, the solution has to be practical. I still believe that progress is better than nothing. Even our argument wouldn't exist if the label was removed.

You can't call it progress if your 'solution' solves nothing and will only feed more arguments.
Also, our argument would exist, but then we would be talking about something more constructive (like the actual ratio and space requirements) instead of the visual representation of an inherently unfair system.

 

[DeletedUser7733]

Why would there be more arguments?

 

[DeletedUser1353]

Hello Kaliartis, just wanted to say that I´m not trying to be negative, judging or trying to misinterpret you. Just want to adress some points you made in your post.

Space is indeed one important issue in this game but not the only, as I mentioned before, there should be other components coming into the equation: supplies, coins, population and culture.. I have not taken the time to make all these fancy calculations, and it’s not my place nor yours but Inno’s maybe? cause personally I don’t have any interest in going into a vain crusade against a system already in place. If you don’t like it, take it up to Inno, and stop implying that any player has any impact on it or is at fault.

You´re right, space is vital in this game. And population culture and tool production is also space taken. More population = more residences = more space taken, more culture = more culture buildings = more space taken etc.
I disagree that it´s not our place to calculate the values of different goods, theorycrafting is something that communities for most games are doing, and if you don´t like it that´s fine of course but saying that it´s not our place to do is in my opinion wrong.
I don´t think that just because the system is in place doesn´t mean it can´t be improved or that discussing it is a vain crusade as you put it.

As a matter of fact, I also play my character at very low levels and cross tier trades have helped me progress on the contrary. When I didn’t have built my tier3 manufactories yet, and I needed those mats to progress or wanted to finish a quest, I was happy to find a helpful cross trade, and if I got less than what I was supposed to, well be it, it’s just pixels in the end…. I am sure we all have more important things to deal with than this… I do!

Would be even nicer for small players if those trades were 4 times better to get their own high tier production going. Yes there is more important things in life than discussing a small feature of a game, but that´s what the forums are for: discussing game features even if they are already in place and maybe Inno will read it and think the system over, who knows?

I´m not blaming players for using a system that´s in the game, I´m just saying the system (cross-tier trade ratings) can be improved (a lot).

 

[DeletedUser5306]

Hello @Lynxze, of course we can discuss the points you made, as I said before this in not the difference in opinion that results in disagreements but the way they are presented by some. I respect your opinion, and if I was convinced and the ratios between tier were to be adjusted I would be ok with this too! I said it before "you might even be right about the levels of imparity between tiers (maybe this is the reason why, and I stated, I never do 1:3 trades??) - BUT - the way you are introducing your ideas, initially judging those who don’t share your opinion, and pushing for them to align, is not really constructive to say the least."

I agree with you on the right to discuss especially on this forum and I am the first to defend the liberty of expression, so please go back and read again, and see that after some of us just depicted naively how we proceed with our trades, a few came into the discussion misinterpreting and making assumptions as to why we proceed like this and the result of our actions as a general consensus, sometimes even targeting specifically some players.

You can of course share you theories and calculations etc.. and I wouldn't even interfere, what I am not so keen on is having people getting judged simply because they are using something existing in the game.
We all play and we should play this game as we want to without being criticized.

Cheers!

 

[DeletedUser6357]

that it's up to us to decide what's fair or unfair.

Extremely wrong point of view!
And I, and you, in the game, are clients. And we are clients, only if we pay.
In the rest of the cases we are only for guests. And it is not our job whether the host hooks the piano on the wall! He likes it so he's got it.

 

[cwgiii]

I still really don't understand the issue here, don't take a trade if you dislike it.

I have no issues for example putting up 40k steel to get 10k silk, or taking a trade 3200 planks wanting 200 elixir or visa versa.

I personally agree here. A trade is a trade, mutually agreed upon, at the particular time of the trade. If you like it, take it. If not, do not.

I personally like the current star level ranking, if for no other reason than the ranking that it provides. I certainly do not want to have to look at each individual trade, break out my calculator, and do the math to figure if I want to accept, or move on to the next trade.

There are times in game when I really need a particular good (especially as a newer city). I MAY, decide to wait it out and acquire that good on my own. OR, I MAY decide to pay for diamonds to acquire that good (although I have never actually gone down this path). OR, I MAY decide that I am willing to pay 1,000,000 steel to get that particular good, at any tier level, at that time, for whatever reason. "My kingdom for a horse..." For the most part, I do trade within tier; because I have advanced my city and have planned enough to be able to stockpile goods, at all levels. I suspect this will change once I get to the Elementals chapter with the sentient goods. But, just as in the real world, anything has it's particular value at a particular point in space and time. Water, in a desert, on the hottest day of the year, when stuck on the side of the road, is worth a lot more than when in the comforts of my home, on any given day, with all utilities in tact and ready at hand.

I will say (and have suggested many times in the past), that I would like to see more tools to be able to sort/organize trades. Ex: a toggle to remove all 0 or 1 star trades. I think a true nested "Sort" function (like in Excell) would be awesome. Ex: I want to see all trades for Steel, within tier, above a trade ratio of X.

To help those that have issues with the star system, maybe a toggle would help, to remove the star rating altogether from your trader view.

As I see it, having more options is a good thing. Free trade is a good thing. I would actually like to trade anything: troops, KP, structures, builder time, maybe even space within my city, etc.

 

[DeletedUser3097]

One man's meat is another man's poison

What seems a fair and attractive trade to one player (meat) may seem unfair and unreasonable to another (poison).

I think that each player needs to decide whether they are willing to pay what is being asked. If you don't think it is 'fair' then don't accept the trade.

This has been a robust and impassioned thread, with many people expressing differing opinions but at times, attempts has been made to polarise the arguments and respect for the viewpoints of others has been forgotten.

So, please continue but keep in mind the need to respect the opinions of others!

 

[DeletedUser5754]

New players use the star rating to decide what is a good trade or not. Keep repeating ' don't like it don't take it' will not change this.
And if you want the players to decide for themselve if its a good trade, you might as well use 1:1:1 as rating. Not even a compromise, both sides get what they want. The 'don't like don't take' is still there.

 

[Killiak]

Why would there be more arguments?

I have made several posts explaining this already. How many more do you need?

 

[DeletedUser7733]

I have put myself out there to try to improve things for everyone by trying to reduce the arguments and confusion of new players.

I’m sorry to say that this has not been a pleasant journey. I’ve tried to describe the current situation and I’m greatly sorry that some of you took it personally, it wasn’t intended. The intention was to describe the situation as accurately as I could. I’ve tried to explain that the solution I’m suggesting is beneficial to everyone. It got twisted.

I really don’t know what more proof developers need to change the system but I have limits. It’s really up to the developers now and I hope that they can see now that there is a problem.

 

[Lelanya]

@CleverAngel777 there are some deep currents here as it is a place to express opinions, and your thread stirred up some lively debate. Please do not let this discourage you overly.
You can ask the mods to close your debate thread, if you wish

 

[DeletedUser5754]

@CleverAngel777 : I agree, but it wasn’t your fault. The point you made about star rating was completely ignored by most of the posters. They turned it into a discussion about making trades, off topic, and turning this into a ‘ we don’t agree that grass is green because the sky is blue’ discussion.
Sadly the one who’s task it is to keep the thread on topic didn’t and even went offtopic herself.

 

[DeletedUser5976]

@CleverAngel777 Look at the number of responses. A thread that gets this many replies is most of the time about an event or some major change announced in design notes. So it is obviously an issue that many have an opinion on and needs to be discussed. As ever there will be misunderstandings and people following a train of thought might go off the topic rails. I would also say don't get discouraged. I would be very happy for star ratings to either disappear or change to something that is fairer than the current system. There are several games where trade amongst players is possible and they have systems to allow the market to determine the price. Then it would indeed be for people to think and decide for themselves what we deem fair. Because a star rating does influence the people, it is an anchor whether we want it or not.