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Easy Preparations for the next FA

Jake65

Sorcerer
Thanks for the maths @Sir Derf (there, you have it in writing :D )
I find it very interesting how there really isn't a "one size fits all" solution.
 

Silly Bubbles

Sorcerer
Thanks for the maths @Sir Derf (there, you have it in writing :D )
I find it very interesting how there really isn't a "one size fits all" solution.

I hope you do understand it. There's still couple of things not covered like Ensorcelled Endownment enchantment doesn't kick in till you hit 125% culture so you can't really include 5% boost if you're under. It's a waste of enchantments. But I must admit that his math does look impressive.

PS: Shhhh... Don't tell anyone, I'm already getting enough hard time :D
 

Sir Derf

Mentor
1) EE enchantment would increase the Culture of the building it is applied to, increasing your count to 125%. My current city has only reached the Culture necessary for Level 1 boost because my Available Culture is being augmented by the EE boosted Culture of the NHed buildings. So there's a synergistic effect... EE of a NHed building will both add to the Culture needed for minimum 125% boost, and once there, will give the additional 5% for having been NH'ed and Boosted. So, maybe not so much a waste of enchantments. Once again, do the math; your numbers may vary.

2) As to things not covered, well, there's also the Lighthouse of Good Neighborhood (for those who have it available, comes in Amuni, Chapter 13). I only just put it in for the Mana effect, but have noticed it also increases the bonus boost from EE of NH. Just the Level 1 increases the bonus from 5% per buffed building to 6%, maxes at 12% currently for Levels above 31. This could make even SB's Felyndral city better for NH Culture than Main Hall. Of course, it requires the footprint, and the investment to upgrade, and the drawback that increased AW Levels would give. All things considered, I would not consider this part of "easy preparations", though...
 

Silly Bubbles

Sorcerer
1) EE enchantment would increase the Culture of the building it is applied to, increasing your count to 125%. My current city has only reached the Culture necessary for Level 1 boost because my Available Culture is being augmented by the EE boosted Culture of the NHed buildings. So there's a synergistic effect... EE of a NHed building will both add to the Culture needed for minimum 125% boost, and once there, will give the additional 5% for having been NH'ed and Boosted. So, maybe not so much a waste of enchantments. Once again, do the math; your numbers may vary.

Nope, I already wasted 4 enchantments and nothing has changed in my Culture Bonus screen* as I'm currently at 100%. Also, a Wiki link:


*Edit: Available Culture, Neighborly Help Bonus, Needed for Next level hasn't changed, my workshop production hasn't changed while it shows spell effect 20% that based on your theory should move me up but it doesn't.

2) As to things not covered, well, there's also the Lighthouse of Good Neighborhood (for those who have it available, comes in Amuni, Chapter 13). I only just put it in for the Mana effect, but have noticed it also increases the bonus boost from EE of NH. Just the Level 1 increases the bonus from 5% per buffed building to 6%, maxes at 12% currently for Levels above 31. This could make even SB's Felyndral city better for NH Culture than Main Hall. Of course, it requires the footprint, and the investment to upgrade, and the drawback that increased AW Levels would give. All things considered, I would not consider this part of "easy preparations", though...

That's why it's easier to count all coins we get in 24 hrs (deduct end of period amount from the beginning of period amount) and deduct the base coins produced by the residences (residences screen show regular amount) to get the amount that we received out of culture boost. This way it covers everything. Of course, each day is a bit different but it will give us an idea and it's an easy calculation.
 

Laurelin

Scholar
I can't do maths, and even if I could, I'm more of an analyst of human behaviour - the WHY of what Inno does - than practicalities - the WHAT of what they do - even though in my opinion, a genuine understanding of the first can only really be derived by a close observation of the second, in any matter which involves humans at all. That said : My own musings on this, which are setting off again (but may well never arrive - I really AM lazy!) - will be along the lines of : so WHY is NH suddenly SO important that we are now - rather than seeing it as a boring duty which many players tend to neglect some or even all of the time (especially those in good visiting Fellowships who can more or less ignore the Map and still get by just fine) - why, then, are we beginning to set NH at front and centre of our FA [and perhaps other] strategies...?!

Does Inno know this? Yes - they have metrics, whether or not they read these Forums (and my opinion has always been that they do). So - why?

[...] Yes, it's a city-specific calculation.
This is the overwhelming reason why what is obvious to Player A can be obscure, or even invisible, to Player B. The fact that, beyond the basic structure of the game, Elvenar can behave almost like an entirely different game for different players in terms of which specific buildings and/or their Resources [and therefore which specific strategy/ies] play a strong rôle - not only pre- and post-Guest Races, but even from Chapter to Chapter - especially as basic drives such as Supplies, Mana, Seeds etc. alter in their basic requirement levels - this fact, complicated further by the possibility of many different player strategies, from solo to group-based, from space-efficient to aesthetic, from casual to hardcore, from competitive to laid-back, and everything in between - this underlying fact of sometimes-major differences between Chapters means that sometimes we are not far off from playing an entirely different game from each other, even if our basic strategies are very similar.

This leads not only to frequent disputes almost every time anyone suggests that any strategy at all, or even any basic maths calculation, might be preferable to any other, but also greatly complicates many Forum comments - and confuses many commentators - since the opinion of a player in, say, Chapter III as to what is desirable or sensible vs that of a player in, say, Ch.XVII will vary extremely wildly only because the game itself varies wildly, as will the opinion [and this is a major problem] of the Spire-Tourney high-scoring player vs the Spire-Tourney-indifferent player.

And this is unique amongst games of my experience - whether they be Free-to-Play, subscription-based, entirely free, or buy-once-own-forever.

My only suggestion as to what to do about this - and thus achieve the Holy Grail of making these Forums a less complex, less antagonistic, more useful, and thus, in general, more relevant and therefore (? one would hope) more attractive place for new players in particular would be to replace the 'Forum Titles' - which are, after all, so obscure in meaning as to indicate little to any new player or to many a long-term player alike - with a note as to the Chapter in which each commentator is playing, which must be known by Inno because nobody can post here without first establishing a City. If any commentator's Chapter Level is known, which would obviate the game's inherent and major differences in requirements at various Chapter levels - in other words, which would remove Inno's own strategy [and tactics] from our disputes (since these are, of course, beyond players' control anyway), at least all that remains to dispute, in a comprehensible way, would be our personal strategies.

I don't even know if the Forum software could do this - and even if it could, there are still obvious problems. The two which spring immediately to mind would be (a) whether or not the commentator chooses to post using a name associated with their main, or even their primary, City; and (b) the fact that any post made when the account owner was in Chapter II [for example] would presumably (?), upon being re-visited and refreshed, alter to state that the player was now in, say, Chapter V.

So... well... I don't really have a useful suggestion on this - unless it be to attach some kind of footnote or similar to each post, stating the Chapter Level of the comment's author at the point when the comment was made, and somehow set this info not to refresh...? But that is getting complicated - and anyway, it still wouldn't obviate the obvious problem of commentators linked by name to X City referring to data which actually derives from their Y or Z 'alt' Cities, with different names - and I know many of us have several Cities on the go [self exluded, if anyone wonders - I have only one Live City, on Arendyll EN1, and the many other 'Laurelins' on Elvenstats aren't me - it's a very common Tolkien-derived name].

If I have 100 Neighbors who diligently visit, I can receive anywhere between 332.5M and 528.3M in coins over the FA, depending on how many give NH to the Main Hall versus Culture buildings (assuming I have 100 Culture buildings, of course). The more who give to Culture, the better. But, the benefit from each of those 100 Neighbors is equal and independent regardless of what each of the other 99 Neighbors do.
Well, yes - but one of the very often-lamented problems with Elvenar - assuming one isn't in a Map desert, too - is this:

[...] from personal experience, not many people follow our visiting preferences [...]

Quoted for truth! :D

And finally :
[...] I'm already getting enough hard time [...]
... But isn't that all part of Life's any Internet Forum's Rich Pageant...?! At least nobody's [yet] suggested that you should go and live in a separate Forum, where you can't - I assume? - disturb the natives TOO much...! ;)
 

Silly Bubbles

Sorcerer
... But isn't that all part of Life's any Internet Forum's Rich Pageant...?! At least nobody's [yet] suggested that you should go and live in a separate Forum, where you can't - I assume? - disturb the natives TOO much...! ;)

The natives benefit from it when they read deep enough into it ;):D
I don't enjoy just looking smart or getting attention, the main purpose is to help and avoid doing mistakes that can compromise the enjoyment of the game and the prosperity of game I love.
Also, there's more to that comment so cutting bits off can make it look out of context. I was joking as the attached emoji clearly showed. :cool:

PS: I'm sorry that you got disturbed, sorry I just focus on the big picture. It's hard to make everyone happy. ;)
 

Laurelin

Scholar
The natives benefit from it when they read deep enough into it ;):D
Well... that's my hope, and intention, so if you agree - that's great.

I don't enjoy just looking smart or getting attention, the main purpose is to help and avoid doing mistakes that can compromise the enjoyment of the game and the prosperity of game I love.
I'd hope that none of us, nor indeed anyone who is attempting to hold a worthwhile discussion based upon informed opinion, would be motivated solely by "just looking smart or getting attention" - if only because they're unlikely to be either contributing much to the debate, if those are their primary motives for joining it, nor yet enjoying themselves much (there are far too many doing just that on the Interwebz, so it becomes a 'posing' [not 'posting'] contest very quickly...) - and for what it's worth the entire reason why my loquacious alter-ego writes at such length - even if less often, now- is precisely in order to avoid (inasmuch as it's possible) intentionally presenting mistakes of any kind - game-compromising or otherwise - and thereby, where I may have any effect at all on any readers, ending up swaying viewpoints in the [in my opinion] wrong (or, to put it better : unintended) direction... which would hardly be useful in forwarding my own position. Quite the reverse.

And as for the game's prosperity - I don't know if you were here at the time - and/or, if so, whether you recall the Press Statement (and video) released by Inno at around the time of Elvenar's five-year anniversary, stating that the game had, at that point, earned over 500 million Euros in gross revenue - of which one would assume that profit formed a reasonable percentage, considering that the game has been considerably further extended - which itself costs Inno money - ever since then? The gaming industry Press also learned, via an interview with Inno's CEO, that Elvenar alone employed [then] some 40 people, and Inno itself more like 400, IIRC - so I don't think they're doing too badly in that sphere.

Also, there's more to that comment so cutting bits off can make it look out of context. I was joking as the attached emoji clearly showed. :cool:
The LAST thing I wish to do - personally or according to my academic training - is to utilise the underhand and invalid technique of selective quoting, which is often colloquially referred to as 'cherry-picking' - i.e. "cutting bits off [from any text] to make it look out of context".

I'm a [trained - we do exist] philosopher and formal debater, and altering any text's meaning via 'cherry-picking' is anathema to me, so if you can locate any instance where I have done this - i.e. altered the fundamental meaning of any of your quoted text (not merely reduced the number of words you've used or removed emojis which I myself understood to add no more than emphasis - vs additional meaning - to your words), please do point me to it/them, and you'll have the apology and public correction which are the standard remedy for this unacceptable practice.

However, now that I realise that you consider that your emojis form part of your intended meaning - whereas mine are purely emphatic, or added for pseudo-comic or 'emotionally defusing' effect - then of course I won't remove them... which I have done, here or anywhere else, since pre-[public]-Net days, on a habitual basis. It's related to my habit of editing posts using the conventional [...] notation, and I do it for the same reason - for brevity [where possible] and in order to save space, and also to prevent the relevance [to my response] of any given quote possibly being lost... not the reverse (which would - of course - be the very definition of, and usual reason for, 'cherry-picking'...!).

I also assume that any readers will also have read the full previous version of any text I may partially quote, in order to be able to understand the progression of the discussion, which would mean that the absence of emojis and/or some edited-out text in my quoted material should not adversely affect their comprehension of my source's initial comment.

Again, though, I will leave your own emojis intact henceforth, since you've told me that's what you would prefer :)

PS: I'm sorry that you got disturbed
? Nope, not disturbed, here - well, some would say I'm *always* a bit disturbed, but that's another matter entirely! Haha.
I'm actually not sure how I managed to [accidentally] convey this mistaken impression...? Anyway. It wasn't intended.

sorry I just focus on the big picture
And that's the entire beauty of freedom of choice - and of speech. We can all take whatever standpoint we like, within the Time-honoured and elastic boundaries of mutual civility and license, combined with accepting responsibility for our words and actions. My Forum signature refers... the non-silly older part, that is.

It's hard to make everyone happy. ;)
Yep - but having already used up the famous Abe Lincoln quote to which I always resort on this very true subject, which mentions "all of the people, all of the time" - I can't say any more, or put it any better, than he did! And furthermore - I just fell asleep in front of my PC - again! - for something like three or four hours, so I really must go to bed! Peace reigns again on the EN Forum... :D

[ ETA : Posted without proper proof-reading - may well contain minor typos and/or lack of clarity - no time to proof-read now, though! Apologies. ]
 

Silly Bubbles

Sorcerer
@Laurelin Ok, I get it, you don't agree with me. So are we done now and can we move on? It's kind of taking over the forum and it's not very game related.
PS: I hope you enjoyed your daily nap. :)
 

Skallywag

Spellcaster
TL;DR this entire thread. My goodness people. Maybe you need to prep for coin collection, maybe you don't. Again, TL;DR, but did anyone mention the Coin Rain instants? We were able to produce Sacks of Coins at will using Coin Rain instants. That worked for me, but so did casting EE's on all my culture buildings and having 20+ pages of notifications from visiting literally every city on my map. Every culture building had visits, and I was > 500% bonus level the entire time.

Whenever we ran out of sacks, it took someone about 2 minutes of casting coin rain instants to solve that problem. I don't see this as being that out of balance. The guards and wonder badges need to be fixed too - we all had hundreds of those left at the end, as usual.
 

Laurelin

Scholar
TL;DR this entire thread. My goodness people. Maybe you need to prep for coin collection, maybe you don't. Again, TL;DR, but did anyone mention the Coin Rain instants? We were able to produce Sacks of Coins at will using Coin Rain instants. That worked for me, but so did casting EE's on all my culture buildings and having 20+ pages of notifications from visiting literally every city on my map. Every culture building had visits, and I was > 500% bonus level the entire time.

Whenever we ran out of sacks, it took someone about 2 minutes of casting coin rain instants to solve that problem. I don't see this as being that out of balance. The guards and wonder badges need to be fixed too - we all had hundreds of those left at the end, as usual.
@Skallywag : To save you reading any of my other long posts : I don't think the 'just use Coin Rains' strategy will work for long. We'll run out. The 'visit more Neighbours' idea is probably, IMO, Inno's [most likely] primary intention here, and is, of course, sustainable - unlike falling back upon even huge Coin Rain stocks, the largest of which must come to an end at some point. I've read that one major Beta player used 30 x 100% CRs - it wasn't enough.

On a related note : I think, based on long observation of many in-game changes, that Coins are going to become generally more important overall.

And on your other point - the vastness of posts in this thread which aren't related to the topic - yes, good point. Please see below! :)

@Silly Bubbles : Indeed we do disagree, on several points with relevance to the game - and I for one am glad you're willing to engage in a robust discussion on those elements of the game! But I do take the point - apologies to you, and indeed @everyone else here, too - I almost put my most recent response to you [personally] into a Spoiler tag, but then I decided not to; open discussions are open, after all, and it's likely that others, beyond you and I, are at least following what we've said, if not welcoming our to-and-fro verbosity (mostly mine)...! But I'll cut it out now... :)
 

Silly Bubbles

Sorcerer
TL;DR this entire thread. My goodness people. Maybe you need to prep for coin collection, maybe you don't. Again, TL;DR, but did anyone mention the Coin Rain instants? We were able to produce Sacks of Coins at will using Coin Rain instants. That worked for me, but so did casting EE's on all my culture buildings and having 20+ pages of notifications from visiting literally every city on my map. Every culture building had visits, and I was > 500% bonus level the entire time.

Whenever we ran out of sacks, it took someone about 2 minutes of casting coin rain instants to solve that problem. I don't see this as being that out of balance. The guards and wonder badges need to be fixed too - we all had hundreds of those left at the end, as usual.

Yes, it’s sad that it needs a complicated long-winded conversation to prove a simple point. I suppose complicated math looks smart and therefore more attractive to use and that’s fine as long as people understand at least the logic behind it. This game is not that complicated that it needs rocket science.
 

Lymhir

Seeker
This thread is purely hot air, you are not saying anything that already most players do before or during an FSA. Some considerations are purely temporary solutions, for example the use of Coins Rain, others are purely boring mathematical disquisitions.
So many words, almost boring poems to ultimately say nothing useful.

In the last edition of the FSA three items were changed not only the Sack of Coins but also the Bracelets and Guardian Badges, this made an already unfun event, for the reasons I already expressed in a previous post, a real crap.

This is a game and to call itself such it must entertain, if one component of it does not entertain it is useless to elucubrate useless and stressful solutions.
 

Laurelin

Scholar
@Silly Bubbles : I shall refrain from expounding, so to respond very briefly, and without passing first through my more typical stages of source data --> theory/proposal --> premise(s) --> argument/discussion ---> conclusion, I'll just start at the end, and say : I personally find it more 'sad' that e.g. mainstream newspapers - never mind gaming forums! - now present info beneath '2-Minute Read' banners. Personal opinion only.

@Lymhir : Wow, that's harsh! Seriously - 'purely hot air' ... 'boring' maths ... and 'useless' elucubration...? But my personal opinions aside - and also without exposition - I, for one, much appreciate the insights and valuable information unearthed via the process (of which I myself am incapable) of mathematically calculating the manner in which the game's mechanics operate, and I am therefore grateful that @Sir Derf - and any other maths-capable players who care to do the same - are willing to post here not only the obvious fact that Sacks of Coins are now more difficult to obtain, nor yet [only] their opinion(s) about that fact (welcome and interesting though ALL such opinions naturally are), but also to explain, in depth and with mathematical accuracy : (a) to what extent Sacks of Coins [etc.] are now more difficult to obtain; (b) how best said difficulty might be mitigated [as effectively - i.e. mathematically - as possible]; and (c) also how much difference any suggested mitigation strategy might make.

Not everyone enjoys only terse communication, at all times. There are those who also enjoy - where required - complex informative discourse.

Not all players use any strategy with regard to FAs, or are even aware that strategies exist. Of those who do, not all are skilled in analysis or maths.

And while no amount of elucubration will, as you correctly state, alter the mere fact of the recent FA changes, formulating a mitigating strategy may require it, whether or not this materially alters the view that the FA has, as a result of said fact, become less entertaining than it formerly was.

* * * * *

Also : I really can't help observing as follows, since it's wholly relevant to your own point re the brevity or otherwise of earlier posts in this thread:

I'm quite good with language - in fact it's a 'tool of my trade' - but I've just had to look up the [precise] meanings of 'disquisition' and 'elucubrate'. It's interesting that you'd use such advanced academic terminology in a post which, in part, criticises the use of same by others, and so @Lymhir again : Might I ask whether you're using an online translator of some kind - or are you intentionally being a little ironic, perhaps...? :)



P.S. : If I may be allowed one tiny joke, no matter how unfunny and/or contrived : And here we observe the rare L. Simplicita Maxima - in the process of her EN Forum début... :D
 

Silly Bubbles

Sorcerer
I, for one, much appreciate the insights and valuable information unearthed via the process (of which I myself am incapable) of mathematically calculating the manner in which the game's mechanics operate,

I personally love math as long as it makes my life better and easier. I'd just watch out that just because someone uses complicated math, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's correct or that it should be used. Have it checked and double checked before you invest yourself in it. Behind every math there's logic that is easier to put across to non-math people so I would at least ask for that. Correct math is much easier to understand than incorrect one. So just the fact that we struggle to understand it should be a warning sign.
 

Silly Bubbles

Sorcerer
No idea what this means but woe betide any Scrabble opponents who use "rate" anywhere near a triple word score :D

Yay, it's related to a meringue pie. Don't ask me why Google thinks so but hey, I never say no to one. They obviously think I need cheering up. :D

pie.png
 

Silly Bubbles

Sorcerer
If anyone’s interested in an easy calculation how to decide whether to ask for culture polish or Main Hall donation when people are visiting you, all you need to do is to calculate 5% of all your residences base income for 24 hrs and compare it to the income you get when one person clicks on your MH. When MH income is higher, it’s better to receive MH help.

It’s not perfect but it should give us a good idea. It’s based on marginal gain and it also assumes that you will use enchatments on your culture buildings and your culture bonus will be over 125% (and other not hugely significant things).
 
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