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Answered Dwarven resources

DeletedUser

Guest
I couldn't find where someone stated how many copper/granite mines are optimal for the dwarf chapter. If anyone could either give me the answer of point me to the thread, that would be AWESOME!

Like 3 copper and 5 granite.

Also suggestions welcome, like upgrade the portal before anything else etc etc.
 

DeletedUser363

Guest
I had 6 granite and 4 copper, got through ok, but took time, you do need to upgrade the portal to level 4 to get the storage you need to complete the research. Have fun
 

Tonton-des-bois

Illusionist
I made the simulation with different values :
Dwarf prod is optimal with a ratio of 2 granite for 1 copper (I used 10/5) and with all at level 4 (mines and portal)
... and that (1P+10G+5C) will give you all the goods in 63 days (including all buildings upgrades with 5 builders) and assuming you can connect morning, noon and evening to be able to collect the goods

And don't think you can just upgrade to level 3 to save time : the production bonuses actually save much time than the upgrades time costs... so a level 3 production needs 10% more time than a level 4 with the same number of mines (upgrade times included)...
 
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DeletedUser1925

Guest
I had 6 granite and 4 copper, got through ok, but took time, you do need to upgrade the portal to level 4 to get the storage you need to complete the research. Have fun
I don't think that will be enough.


Dwarf prod is optimal with 2 granite for 1 copper (idealy 10/5) and with all at level 4 (mines and portal)... I made the simulation and that will give you all the goods in 72 days
First you need to come to level. 4 ;)
 
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Deleted User - 106219

Guest
I'd say at least 10 Granite Mines, preferably a few more than that. As for Copper, it depends on the space you have available.

Research Granite Mines as soon as possible, then upgrade all Granite Mines to level 2 as soon as possible (upgrading them to level 3 requires Copper). Next research Copper Foundry as soon as possible. After that focus on upgrading Granite Mines and Portal to level 4. Depending on how many Copper Foundries you have you might be able to skip upgrading them:
- in my Elf city Granite Mines:Copper Foundries were 2:1, so I had to upgrade all Foundries to level 2 (some further than that)
- in my Human town Granite Mines:Copper Foundries are 1:1 and I have more than enough copper, so I have upgraded exactly 1 Copper Foundry to level 2
 

DeletedUser1829

Guest
I have found 10 granite level 4 and 10 copper level 1 (maybe one or 2 level 2) to be one of the best set-ups from a time point of view. If space is more of an issue then 5 or 6 copper factories at level 3. I tried level 4 on a town but the cost of upgrading takes its toll and I don't believe is worth it unless you had less factories perhaps.

With the first set-up I mentioned if space is available extra granite or copper mines can be placed but are not required beyond level 1. this gives you the ability to put up and take them down as needed depending on if you need granite or copper more.

This information is available https://en.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/mykans-guide-to-elvenar.2829/ as is information on the next guest race.
 

Tonton-des-bois

Illusionist
Nice guide, congrats ;) I just don't agree with Dwarve prod (copper mines) but I already said why... and anyway, I made my calculation months ago and I can't check them with actual goods needs if they changed like a lot of things in the research tree so, just an out-of-date opinion.
 
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DeletedUser1829

Guest
Thank you, copper numbers are flexible and a lot comes down to space, preferences, approach to tech, etc. That guide is also aging and it can't be edited. While I have not run the maths I do run multiple towns and have tried a few different approaches to dwarves and experience if I get tech locked or not. If a person is running around the 10-12 Granite and 6 copper (basically your 2:1) they will be close enough to adjust numbers to suit their own situation/preference.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
As an update, I went initially with 10/5 upgraded reasonably aggressively and it is nowhere near enough.

I am 3/5 of the way through (just before the main hall upgrade) and will be stuck here for probably a week.
Up to this point I have been upgrading the portal/mines/foundries as fast as possible, only using the results to get techs when I absolutely had to (or waste KP's) My portal is maxed, 9 lv2 granite plus 2 lv3 and 5 lv2 foundries plus 1 lv1.

I would suggest that if you get extra KP's from tournaments or provinces or even buying them, then 12/6 would possibly be better, or even more.

My next job is to calculate how much of each I need, how long it will take for each good to be produced in total, then calculate which good needs to be upgraded first AND whether the payback time for upgrading is worth it.
By payback time, I mean if it costs 200 copper to upgrade and the foundry will take 7 days to start showing an increase (after paying back the 200 plus what the unupgraded would have made) and the total time (before the upgrade) is 6 days, then I know not to waste time upgrading... if that made sense.

TL;DR 12/6 or even more if you get KP's from other sources.
 

Tonton-des-bois

Illusionist
I've made simulators on calc-sheets for the 3 Ages : from Dwarve' Age to Orc one, all time spended by upgrading all mines and portal to level 4 is shorter than the time gained by producing more/faster... The only question is how much you have room for. From this point you have 2 choices : you can first upgrade all buildings and spend your KP in AW when you're blocked in the research tree or you can start producing some goods not to be blocked in the research tree but this will last longer this way...
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I've made simulators on calc-sheets for the 3 Ages : from Dwarve' Age to Orc one, all time spended by upgrading all mines and portal to level 4 is shorter than the time gained by producing more/faster... The only question is how much you have room for. From this point you have 2 choices : you can first upgrade all buildings and spend your KP in AW when you're blocked in the research tree or you can start producing some goods not to be blocked in the research tree but this will last longer this way...

Not 100% sure I understand you. I understand that upgrading a resource building will always result in gaining the required resources faster, I am happy to take your word for that. However, even if this is the case, don't you only want to produce (in an ideal world) exactly what you need, in relation to how fast you get the techs? So if the techs are the choke point, why bother producing faster?
To put it another way, once I get past this choke point, my current production will exceed my requirements, so even if I did upgrade, it would not allow me to finish the chapter any quicker and would even be slower? (Due to using resources instead of saving them for techs I have waiting?)

The less times I upgrade, the more time I can use those builders to upgrade things that are useful, from workshops, to resource buildings etc, which have long term benefits, rather than short?
 

DeletedUser1829

Guest
The comment on extra sources of KP is important. I think a lot of the numbers on dwarfs was pre-tournaments. I have built towns with and without upgrading copper farms and still favour not upgrading beyond level 2 if that if you have the space.

Something else that is important is your approach to the tech tree. If you just merrily do each "column" in the tree as you progress then your needs will be different to someone who has looked ahead, spotted possible bottlenecks, and saved non-essential techs for that time. I have gone through dwarves without a single tech lock and fairies. Cause I had to wait on the orc release I have not been in a position to test this for them.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
The comment on extra sources of KP is important. I think a lot of the numbers on dwarfs was pre-tournaments. I have built towns with and without upgrading copper farms and still favour not upgrading beyond level 2 if that if you have the space.

Something else that is important is your approach to the tech tree. If you just merrily do each "column" in the tree as you progress then your needs will be different to someone who has looked ahead, spotted possible bottlenecks, and saved non-essential techs for that time. I have gone through dwarves without a single tech lock and fairies. Cause I had to wait on the orc release I have not been in a position to test this for them.

"Saved non-essential techs" eh? Not in my case. I did look ahead, preferentially got techs that opened up others etc. Still bottlenecked at my current point. I find it interesting that that particular idea has come up a few times, yet there is only one tech that you can "skip", all the rest are Inno's typical "play how we tell you" and not optional.
Contributing factors
  • Up until Dwarves I only did the required provinces, then did many in a row
  • Two useful tournaments have happened within dwarves
 

Deleted User - 106219

Guest
Here's the optimal path through the Dwarves chapter, divided in two parts:
Part 1: Advanced Scouts -> Dwarven Portal and Portal Tracks (order irrelevant) -> Granite Mine -> upgrade all to level 2 while researching Dwarven Residences -> Planks, Marble and Steel (order irrelevant) -> Copper Foundry -> begin upgrading Granite Mines and Portal to level 4. This should take priority over unlocking techs.

This leaves you with the following techs that do not require Dwarven resources: City Expansion 21, Squad Size Upgrade 16 -> City Expansion 22, City Expansion 23 (comes after Granite Mine but does not require Granite). All of them are not essensial and can be left for later, so best to work on them while upgrading your mines.

Part 2:
- Dwarven Workshop -> Dwarven Barracks. If you don't have enough Granite for Barracks - work on one of the above techs
- After that Sword Dancer/Axe Barbarian Promotion and Ancient Grounds (order depends on which one you need more) -> Dwarven Main Hall
- next you can work on three techs that all require Copper but no Granite. If you are low on Copper - work on one of the above techs or on Squad size Upgrade 17, else work on one of those techs while waiting for Granite
- next Dwarven Style Street and Dwarven Style Armory (again the order depends on your preferences and what you need) and following techs
- Dwarven Ancient Wonders

There are three spots where you can get stuck if you don't have enough Granite Mines and Copper Foundries, or if you get too many KPs from tournaments: "Tavern and Temple", "Golem/Paladin Promotion" and "Dwarven Ancient Wonders" (in other words the three most expensive techs). I have finished the Dwarves chapter in both worlds following the above path through the tech tree and I got stuck on the AW tech because of getting too many KPs from tournaments, but that's the only place where I got stuck for more than a few hours.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
There is a big jump at the city expansion 24 level. Clearly the bottleneck will more further back along the tech tree dependant on how much you are an "over achiever" in getting KP's. I did follow the way you describe, as it is the logical way to do it, leaving you resources to upgrade while researching other things.

It is just a matter of understanding that the old way of doing things is no longer optimal, or if you play reasonably often (3 times a day) you can bottleneck very easily.
 

Tonton-des-bois

Illusionist
A lot of what has been said has sense.

I perfectly agree with Shadowblack walkthru except I had 1 more point :
1. reaching Copper foundry the straighest way
2. reaching last free culture the straighest way (because their upgrades are freeing rooms for upgrading other buildings)
3. searching the rest...

In my calculations about which level to raise mines, I build "normalised" tables to have for each level of the two types of mine/foundry a production per day and then I build a long table with a row per day, containing the level of all my mines, foundries and portal, the amount of goods produced and upgrading the building as soon as they had goods for.
Then I add a row per day until all the goods were produced (building + researches)

The first conclusion was that because of the amount of each good needed, the best ratio (with same level) was 2 granite for 1 copper and because I had the room for I started checking what would be best levels with 1 portal + 10 granite + 5 copper...
The shortest time was with all buildings at level 4, any other lower level for any building was causing time to increase... Why ? Because upgrading the buildings is really short compare to the time needed to produce the goods for the researches... (733,700 granite + 13,980 copper when I did it)

The numbers I found were, for all hosts building at same level, 1P + 10G + 5C :
level 1 = 172D
level 2 = 104D
level 3 = 69D
level 4 = 63D
Of course, upgrading to level 4 only shorten the time by 6 days, that is about 9% of the time... but level 3 is 31% shorter than level 2 !

For the point about the KPs, each one must play it depending on when he started the age : if you start the dwarves age when there is no more age after, you know that you will have to spend your KPs after the research and you will probably spend them in wonders, so, why not upgrading all the hosts' building first, putting your KPs in your wonders ? Of course, if you started the game later and are 3 ages behind, you will prefer not wasting your KPs and start producing some hosts' goods not to be blocked in the research tree...

Hope this will help ;)
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I would like to point out that while the upgrade itself is quick, the payback time is what I am interested in. For example, granite mine from 3->4 takes 4 hours, costs 5300 granite and 112 copper. Ignoring the copper for a moment, the upgrade value is an extra 20 granite per hour.
Essentially, it will take 265 hours to pay that back, or 11 days. So since that is way shorter than the 30 days it is going to take me to produce enough resources, it is worth it.
(76 x 11 days = 20k (no upgrade) verses 96 (upgraded) x 11 days - 5300 = 20k)
The next question is, did that upgrade and removing that 5300 stop me from getting a tech? If so, how many hours? If I upgraded 6 in a day, I have put my research back 2 days (or more)

So the math says, right now I should be upgrading only when I am not bottlenecked, then recalculate. In my case I have plenty of room, so my solution is simply to get more production.
 
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