• Good day, Stranger! — Are you new to our forums?

    Have I seen you here before? To participate in or to create forum discussions, you will need your own forum account. Register your account here!

Diplomacy in the Spire

Gargon667

Illusionist
Oh, I see what you are saying, let's just play for the heck of it and not ask anything better, because chances are that the changes will bring us only everything worse? I believe that as experienced players we should tell Inno what should be improved in the game. Only a few of FSs go for golden trophies and most of players stir clear of it. Spire should be an important part of this game and most of players don't want to hear anything about it because of their bad experience there. That is why, as players who finish it every week and can afford it, we should tell what can be improved to make other players return to Spire.
I think it is you who is not reading what I say... I never said we should play for the heck of it.
I say the rewards ARE MORE THAN GOOD ENOUGH ALREADY
More rewards will imbalance the game more and will then have to be nerfed again.

Getting more people to play the spire is a good idea from a balancing point of view though. Everyone who doesn´t play the spire now is falling behind, because they are missing out on big rewards every week. More rewards will increase the imbalance between players and non players, so unless you can achieve 100% participation (which of course is impossible) more rewards will not increase balance.

So participation has to be increased in other ways instead. That is a topic I would be very interested in discussing.
My first point would be to create a positive attitude towards the spire on all forums, FB pages etc. If everyone pointed out how good the rewards are instead of constantly complaining about how difficult it is, much more people would get interested I think.
Another point could be more help with actually playing, like tutorials etc, that should be linked to in the spire ingame.
 

Regina8

Adventurer
I think it is you who is not reading what I say... I never said we should play for the heck of it.
I say the rewards ARE MORE THAN GOOD ENOUGH ALREADY
More rewards will imbalance the game more and will then have to be nerfed again.

Getting more people to play the spire is a good idea from a balancing point of view though. Everyone who doesn´t play the spire now is falling behind, because they are missing out on big rewards every week. More rewards will increase the imbalance between players and non players, so unless you can achieve 100% participation (which of course is impossible) more rewards will not increase balance.

So participation has to be increased in other ways instead. That is a topic I would be very interested in discussing.
My first point would be to create a positive attitude towards the spire on all forums, FB pages etc. If everyone pointed out how good the rewards are instead of constantly complaining about how difficult it is, much more people would get interested I think.
Another point could be more help with actually playing, like tutorials etc, that should be linked to in the spire ingame.
You are contradicting yourself here, the only way to make spire more attractive is to revise costs Vs rewards system. If people, who occasionally decide to play it have a positive experience overall, they'll speak well about spire and more players will give it a chance and so on. By false advertising spire, you'll achieve nothing, it's like selling a dead horse IMHO.
 

Gargon667

Illusionist
Again a very subjective subjective view on rewards, just because you have all magic buildings (we are very happy for you), doesn't mean that everyone else have them. Most of us get really happy to receive those in Spire. FYI I don't take you serious anymore, nothing that you have said so far, has any substance to it.
Of course it is subjective, that is exactly what I said! In the first line of my post! How much more obvious do you need it? After that I continue on to say: FOR ME... so yes again, personal preference

Which prize is favored over others is completely based on personal preference Pauly has one list of preferences, I have another, you probably have a different one again etc. So ordering them in a certain way or other will always make sense to some people and not to others. Changing the order changes really nothing at all. but go ahead ask for it to be changed to whatever you prefer. i really don´t care, I will always get all of them anyway since I finish it every week. I am only pointing out that it is pointless...

As to substance: would you care to point out where you actually added anything of substance to the discussion? Other than: I want more rewards?
I don´t know how much substance I added, but at least I came up with something other than "I want more!" and added statements that included a reason as to why I say what I say... you could try and start arguing from there.
 

Gargon667

Illusionist
You are contradicting yourself here, the only way to make spire more attractive is to revise costs Vs rewards system.
Already answered that in the post you quoted, maybe finish reading before you answer. Certainly not the only way and as explained a very bad way.

By false advertising spire, you'll achieve nothing, it's like selling a dead horse IMHO.
What is false advertising? The rewards are great! The are so great that people not playing the spire have a serious disadvantage in the game.

You are the one blaming me for playing the spire just for the heck of it, now you say the rewards are not good enough? So if you think they are not good enough, why do you play it? Just for the heck of it?
 

Gargon667

Illusionist
People will have preferences sure. The important part from my suggestion, though, was to have a guaranteed prize in each of the top chests of each level. This would take away some of the Spire anger because people would no longer be completely at the mercy of the RNG. Also, your favourite is the Armourer, which is what I placed as the guaranteed award for opening the top chest.
Sorry in the whole discussion I missed this one ;)

Well for me personally I don´t need a guaranteed Armorer, I am happy enough to get one every other week or so based on chance... A guaranteed one would be a serious improvement of rewards for me which is as I said not necessary.

But I think the point you are making is to have a guaranteed prize as a way to appeal to players more than random rewards. That I could definitely support, but the guaranteed prize would have to be taken away in other places, so as to not increase overall rewards.
In the case of the Armorer it would have to mean, to completely remove it from all other places (1 per week is already more than what we get now). And in this design it would mean the Armorer is only available when finishing lvl 3. In the current system people have various chances at different stages of the spire. A total of less than 1 per week yes, but at least it is available for everybody. I find this option preferable.

I mean the number of armorers(and timeboosts) handed out by the spire directly influences tourney scores, and they have already been getting out of hand over the last year. From what we hear, the tourney nerf is already on it´s way. We´ll see if Inno again completely destroys something now... Again as always, something becomes too rewarding, it gets nerfed, that is not a bad thing in itself, but necessary to keep the game balanced. The game never intends to hand out too many rewards, but we are very good at exploiting every "weakness" in the design. Right now that is tourneys (in combination with spire). A rebalancing is necessary, but with Innos history of completely destroying instead of rebalancing, I always dread those "rebalancing acts" See the Crystal lighthouse, or the events to just name 2 examples. Too rewarding one day, an empty shell with the same name the next... I hope I am wrong about the upcoming tourney nerf... but I am sure i don´t want a spire nerf right after that...
 

Pauly7

Immortal
But I think the point you are making is to have a guaranteed prize as a way to appeal to players more than random rewards. That I could definitely support, but the guaranteed prize would have to be taken away in other places, so as to not increase overall rewards.
Agreed, but giving out a guaranteed DA and taking 20 hours (say) off the team reward instants, would do more to ingratiate the Spire to people who are frustrated by their team's lack of Spire of activity, which could then get more people involved. Plus the one thing I dislike about the Spire is that everything other team rewards are down to a lottery. I would rather the whole of Elvenar doesn't turn into a fruit machine.
In the case of the Armorer it would have to mean, to completely remove it from all other places (1 per week is already more than what we get now). And in this design it would mean the Armorer is only available when finishing lvl 3.
Maybe, but... Giving one to everyone for opening the top chest rewards people for making it there, but many will not, so there would probably be less DAs given out than in the current system... even if I add - let's also give people an extra 5% chance of a DA in a purple chest.
 
Hello everyone. :)

I've blitz read through most of the replies here. There were a few sound suggestions, or at the very least ideas to be considered.

However, I'd like to offer my own 2 cents regarding the Spire and experience tied to it.

First of all, I'm in Elvenar for over 4 years, and as someone who's been around for that long I can tell you that there was a time before Spire we now know existed, a time when diamonds were scarce. Those who wouldn't buy diamonds would not be able to access powerful magical buildings. We all know that those cities without magical buildings cannot compete with those who have them. This is important to remember. At some point Spire has come. The initial version of the Spire was offering rather poor rewards (in my opinion), so I simply decided to ignore it. And then, the change happened, and Spire now turned into a place where any player could win not only diamonds, but also magical buildings and many other rewards. To me personally this Spire has become absolutely indispensable, a key to my city reaching its full potential, and without it, I'd never be there without buying diamonds. I am aware that all of you know this, and I am not mentioning it because I think you don't. I say it because I think it's important to the overall perspective of Elvenar's progression, and Spire is most probably the most important touchstone of that progression, it has moved the game forward for everyone like nothing else before. As for the rewards, I think the players decide their worth. Those who consider something worth doing will dedicate time and resources to achieve it, those who do not won't. Yes, I know that the magical buildings, diamonds and other rewards are all chance rewards, but to me that chance is better than to not have chance at all. I'm sure that there are a lot of other players who share this view. This brings me to the reason why I'm replying here. I know that everyone here sharing suggestions and ideas means well, and comes with good intention to make things better. However, everything that is good and can be made better, can also be made worse. I know that the High Men from Inno read this:D:D:D, so I hope you guys do not decide to reshape the current Spire into something less accessible or more punishing to step your foot into. :)

Kind regards,

Andas
 

Gargon667

Illusionist
I don´t know how to explain that well, but adding a 100% guaranteed Armorer to the last boss would be an insane increase in rewards.

Right now the last boss has depending on personal preferences a lets say 20% chance of a good prize?

Adding 100% Armore makes 120% chance of good stuff, that is 6 times as good! Even if you scrapped all the chances and handed out only the guaranteed Armorer it is still 5 times as good as the current 20% chance of a good prize. So overall for everbody finishing boss 3 the prizes handed out would be 5 times as good as before. (minus the less desirable outcomes)

Even if you think currently you have a 50% chance of good rewards adding a 100% Armorer will triple the rewards handed out by the spire for this boss. (double if you delete all other rewards)

I find it hard to balance that out by taking away rewards other places. It would leave basically only crap everywhere except for the guarantees... And what´s the point then having the chances at all if it is 100% crap (even if it is different kind of crap). So then we have 3 bosses but each of them giving a good and guaranteed rewards (still far more rewards than previously), but we have more than 3 different rewards now, so no it just doesn´t work.
So out of the 3 options:
- change nothing
- replace random with guarantees but not add rewards (does not work)
- add lots of guaranteed rewards (undesirable for balancing reasons)

I would still vote for the first.

One thought:
Random could be replaced with a cycle: So instead of the current system, where every chest has a set of random prizes, every chest would get a cycle. It would have to be a 20 week cycle (to be able to keep with current 5% steps in probabilities). Something like PP, Diamond, PP, Diamond, PP, Armorer, PP, Diamond, PP, Library, PP, Diamond, PP, Diamond, etc... that would result in the exactly same rewards as before over time, without the randomness, but would it be more appealing?
Basically you would get guaranteed rewards what is now average rewards. 5% would be once in the 20 week cycle, 10 % would be twice in the cycle etc...
 

Gargon667

Illusionist
Agreed, but giving out a guaranteed DA and taking 20 hours (say) off the team reward instants, would do more to ingratiate the Spire to people who are frustrated by their team's lack of Spire of activity, which could then get more people involved. Plus the one thing I dislike about the Spire is that everything other team rewards are down to a lottery. I would rather the whole of Elvenar doesn't turn into a fruit machine.

Maybe, but... Giving one to everyone for opening the top chest rewards people for making it there, but many will not, so there would probably be less DAs given out than in the current system... even if I add - let's also give people an extra 5% chance of a DA in a purple chest.
Definitely good points :)

DAs can be more or less counterbalanced with timeboosts, since they both have the same effect... I guess one would have to calculate some very big averages to figure out what a good conversion ratio is.

And point 2 is also true, it could be calculated that way to not hand out more DAs than currently. it will change the rewards in a way that gives more to people that finish and less to people that only play a little. I am not sure what is better: Increase the incentive to start playing the spire at all or increase the incentive to finish it when started? Not an easy choice to make. We had the same discussion last time, when the diamonds were taken away from individual early rewards and put into the last chest of the team rewards. Good for gold medal FS, but bad for everybody else... Since then the number gold medal FS has increased a lot, so that is good :) But still everybody else is paying for it... As I said a difficult choice and I am biased of course.
 

Timneh

Artisan
I have to admit that i like the idea that @Pauly7 had of removing things from chests in the spire when players already have them (especially the set biuldings) after all how many sets do you have to have before you think enough is enough. Yes you could disenchant them for spell fragments but come on, who needs them, the spire gives enough as it is.

I personally think discussing whether the spire needs to be changed or not is pointless, at some point in the future it will change (everything does), the only question is how it will change. It is almost guaranteed that when that change does happen some people will say it is a good change and some will say it is a bad change. I actually do not care what they do with it, if they suddenly turned around and said the next spire will be the last i would not be bothered one little bit, i played the game without the spire before and i would do it again if it was not part of the game.
This is just a game, it has no influence on my real life so deep down it does not matter what they do to it, it still will not influence my real life.
My personal thoughts are that some people take this game too seriously but that is their choice and they are free to make it how they want to.
 

CrazyWizard

Sorcerer
lol this is coming from 2 players with 2-3 brown bears and almost all AWs maxed up (CrazyWizard). How is it that you are talking for everyone else??? I have my own opinion and I am managing 2 top FSs on 2 servers, I know how my players feel about Spire. You are both in a minority of players, so don't dismiss comments of other players!
What a ridiculous failing comment to make your non existing point.

Are you aware of the fact that all those ancient wonders make the spire insanly difficult for me,
That I need to employ weird tactics Like using 50!! ensorcelled endowment combined with a lighthouse of good neigbourhood just to be able to aquire the needed coins to play it?
And Some old sets keep me alive as I otherwise would not be able to aquire enough basic goods. for example my harvest set gives me like 3.5m goods a week, yet I am only about 1m positive each week, wouthout that set the spire would drain my supply of T1 that I would have build over the years very quickly.

Therefore because of all those wonders the spire is insanely diffcult for me.
Yet I like and I play it, as it's one of the few ways to aquire "free diamonds" and those are worth anything you can throw at it.
How good is it to sit on a pile of junk all the time, just for the sake of sitting on it?

Every player who doesnt even try to do 2 levels of the spire, it's there loss.

And no the prizes should not be "improved" they are already very very very good, and if you find them not good enough, then it's again your loss not mine for not recognising all that it gives.
 

Pauly7

Immortal
I should caveat my prior suggestion by saying that I do agree with @CrazyWizard, @Gargon667 and others who have said that Spire rewards don't need to get any better than they are right now so I am not trying to angle for that. My comments were for the sake of conversation and how I would amend it if I were calling the shots here. On balance I think that a few 'set' prizes for people reaching the end of each level would improve the experience all round, but as part of that equation I assumed that these extras would also be deducted from the team rewards at the end.

It has been a crazy heated debate above, though, considering that it's already one of the most lucrative parts of the game on rewards. It's probably better to debate why Fellowship Adventure rewards are poor.
 

Timneh

Artisan
I don't think it is right to say that it is players loss if they do not play the spire as that is down to personal opinion. They might think that they have better use for their coins, supplies, goods and troops by using them to advance their city. No one needs time boosters or diamonds or anything else that can be gained from the spire to play the game. Players don't need to craft things in the MA so the spell fragments and CCs are not needed.
It is easier and faster if you do have all the things from the spire but they are not vital so if a player does not care how fast they progress through the game then the spire and to a certain degree tournaments are not needed. I am sure that some people will disagree with me and that is their right, everyone has a personal opinion.
 

CrazyWizard

Sorcerer
I don't think it is right to say that it is players loss if they do not play the spire as that is down to personal opinion. They might think that they have better use for their coins, supplies, goods and troops by using them to advance their city. No one needs time boosters or diamonds or anything else that can be gained from the spire to play the game. Players don't need to craft things in the MA so the spell fragments and CCs are not needed.
It is easier and faster if you do have all the things from the spire but they are not vital so if a player does not care how fast they progress through the game then the spire and to a certain degree tournaments are not needed. I am sure that some people will disagree with me and that is their right, everyone has a personal opinion.
Sure there are players that have every premium building, every premium expansion, don't care about the tournaments nor crafting.
They will probebly recognise that the spire is awesome for many but just not them and thats fine.
They know it's good but they don't care anyway for various reasons.

But anyone who doesn't play the spire because the prizes "suck" without recognizing it's potential it's there loss.

I know an arcmage who whines about the spire on multiple forums how much it sucks, while at the same times whines about everything else in the game that the spire solves.
His reasoning why people do better in the tournaments is because people spend diamonds, there wonders are better, they skipped SS research, they cheat and whatever, but it's never because they play that useless spire, even if you tell him it's the spire he keeps returning with the spire sucks.
Even some of his members have taken over this approach, just because he keeps repeating it.

Some of his members made the transition to my guild because they did understand.

They only way to to solve this issue is that each time the spire prizes are brought into question is to debunk it. to go full against it and kick that argument to the curb.
The spire prizes are awesome, you get free diamonds, you can pump your tournament scores trought the roof aquiring many many knowledge points, there is a decent set to win which you can destroy the game with (scrolls issue seen om many forums), it opens up more crafting opportunities that allow you nice prizes and even more diamonds.

But if you do not like free diamonds, free timeboosters, good tournament scores, a decent set nor crafting, then the spire might not be for you.
 

Regina8

Adventurer
Well, at this point my issue is not even with the game or Spire anymore, but with the way I was treated here. Just because I don't post comments here as often as you all do, doesn't make me an inexperienced player and newcomer, not entitled to my own view on some aspects of this game. This was a very unpleasant experience that I will refrain from repeating again. Just one little note: who decides on the game balance and why having 1 guaranteed Dwarven Armorer has to penalise FS chest rewards, it's all made up and programmed in a way to make us spend money, but there is a balance of how much greedy your game can become, so that you'll lose all your players eventually.