Diamond cost reduction?

[Pauly7]

This is something that has happened more than once before. I am presented with a Black Friday offer where certain items are being sold for a certain number of diamonds. Each one claims to be a 10% or 20% cost reduction and different diamond amounts are crossed out. For example, the Dwarven Armourer has 1,000 diamonds crossed out and is now on sale for 800 diamonds, which is a 20% reduction.

My question is - has Inno ever tried to sell a Dwarven Armourer for 1,000 diamonds? If not then it isn't lawful to claim it is a 20% reduction in cost, if usual rules of commerce apply.

 

[Silmaril]

Gaming and Virtual goods are a bit different. This is why all items in the game have an intrinsic value, this allows us to prove the worth of anything in the game. This then allows us to make various offers on items, like the one you cite.

 

[Pauly7]

So is it therefore demonstrable how a Dwarven Armourer has an intrinsic value of 1,000 diamonds?

 

[anonglitch]

It is a complicated algorithm that takes a lot of things into account. It's effect also has some value if you calculate its benefits. It is quite complicated, and we can't get there, but they also have an intrinsic base value.

 

[Herodite]

@Pauly7 You are correct, there are laws in place to ensure that consumers are protected against such practices. All companies are well within their rights to lower and increase costs in order to remain in a competitive market however in the event of Sale Items the previous price listed must be clear to see and have remained at that price for a "meaningful length of time" in order to meet lawful requirements. This of course stops price hiking prior to a Sale Event.

 

[Pauly7]

@Pauly7 You are correct, there are laws in place to ensure that consumers are protected against such practices. All companies are well within their rights to lower and increase costs in order to remain in a competitive market however in the event of Sale Items the previous price listed must be clear to see and have remained at that price for a "meaningful length of time" in order to meet lawful requirements. This of course stops price hiking prior to a Sale Event

Exactly what I was thinking of - and you seem to be agreeing with me then, if the Dwarven Armourer hasn't been advertised for a meaningful length of time at 1,000 diamonds before being reduced to 800.

 

[DeletedUser6472]

Indeed, as Pauly7 said, this is the first time that I am aware that the Dwarven Armorer has a price of 1000 diamonds. This price never has been shown to us before, therefore what is " meaningful length of time" here? Also, the most of people that I'm playing with (48) have ridiculed this price, because it's just as Inno's pricing policy, is ridiculous and for sure will not improve your sales and consequently profit figures.

 

[CrazyWizard]

You must not forget that you are dealing with laws beyond borders.
The internet is a strange place when it comes to laws.

Just a whack example:
A content creator on youtube has to confer to his national laws.
Youtube has to confer to US law.

Therefore a content creator can do something thats allowed in his country and youtube can be punisched in the Us for it. but the content creator can't be touched.

Since inno-games is a german country it folows german law, as long as it does not have assets in another country it will be near impossible for any other country in the world to apply there laws to that same company.

The point of assets is important, as once you do have assest rules change.

 

[Pauly7]

Since inno-games is a german country it folows german law, as long as it does not have assets in another country it will be near impossible for any other country in the world to apply there laws to that same company.

So does Germany have no laws about advertising sale prices?

 

[Laurelin]

This comes up every time InnoGames puts items 'on sale' which it does not actually sell. Who remembers the £75 2019 Phoenix Artifacts débacle...?

And whenever this comes up, points are made regarding a perceived difference between 'virtual' goods and physical goods (this is not founded in law). Points are also made about differing legal jurisdictions (also not legally valid; wherever an item is sold, it must comply with the law in that region).

I have no idea why people defend gaming companies with regard to practices which are (rightly) vehemently opposed when the 'virtual' goods concerned are not games - for example, Microsoft or Apple software products. It seems as if people will - for no reason I can understand - commonly excuse what amounts to illegal (and certainly immoral) behaviour in the world of IT and software... but only when the behaviour relates to a game.

This is a strange phenomenon - and it is not limited to 'sale offers', either. People will excuse any number of immoral, predatory, verging upon or wholly illegal, or in other ways highly questionable practices when it comes to gaming software, but not any other kind of software. I would think that this strange but persistent habit of regarding gaming companies as being in some way above both laws and morals will probably not be addressed (in any useful manner, certainly) until at least one person has the time, money, and determination to bring a court case - no matter in which jurisdiction - challenging the most commonly seen illicit and/or morally indefensible practices of what has become an industry with more money than Hollywood... which, of course, means the chances of seeing such a case any time soon - and the chances of any such case succeeding - are both pretty slim.

Meanwhile: Dwarven Armourer for £8.00, anyone?

 

[CrazyWizard]

So does Germany have no laws about advertising sale prices?

most likely, and they most likely follow those rules.

Just a crazy example from my own country. december is a special month with 2 special days in which we give presents, 5th of december and cristmas.
So in the summer product A cost 15 euro's, in december it's from 24.99 offered for a mere 14.99, how can they do this?
Dont you have laws? off course we do, what they do is before the buy, buy, buy, season begins they increase the price temporary to 24.99 for the minimum amount of time "legal time", then they discount it for 14.99 and it's perfectly legal.

another trick is discounted from msrp, as this is a value you can make up with the producer, just tell them to set an unresonable msrp and then you can discount from msrp making it look like a much better value.

There was no discount at all, but they can price it legally that way.
I am certain a company with x 100 million dollar revenue has a legal team, and I am sure they found there legal loophole in german law as well.

The "hidden values" of each product in game as the community manager explained is most likely there legal loophole.
and if you want to be certain, feel free to hire a german lawyer to get a definitive answer.

 

[Silmaril]

So is it therefore demonstrable how a Dwarven Armourer has an intrinsic value of 1,000 diamonds?

Yes and this is the same for every building we have. The calculations are done from before any item is even introduced to the game to make sure that everything is taken into consideration. A term we call balancing as this takes into consideration the power of the building, how common or rare it will be, how hard will it be for a player to get, as well as its footprint and of course the maths formula that each aspect of this creates.
As a company we have to be able to use a consistent formula all across the game ''balancing'' is exactly this.
Therefore when any offer is made like today, this is based on a set of known and fair pricing that adheres to legislation.

 

[BlueBlou]

No reduction shown on the following, but I would like to know how many of these items any person may buy? Seeing how useful the Mermaid’s Paradise was in the recent FA, some might go for this offer. Price too high when converted to my local currency to be even a consideration in my case.

 

[DeletedUser6472]

lol £50 for Air traders set, I disenchanted it today, £50 worth of stuff. £75 for Gingerbread Mansion or Mermaids Paradise, really??? Hmm, so do I get 2 Mermaids Paradise or a small LED TV... choices, choices lol. Ridiculous!!!

 

[Pauly7]

Yes and this is the same for every building we have. The calculations are done from before any item is even introduced to the game to make sure that everything is taken into consideration. A term we call balancing as this takes into consideration the power of the building, how common or rare it will be, how hard will it be for a player to get, as well as its footprint and of course the maths formula that each aspect of this creates.
As a company we have to be able to use a consistent formula all across the game ''balancing'' is exactly this.
Therefore when any offer is made like today, this is based on a set of known and fair pricing that adheres to legislation.

I'd be interested to see InnoGames defend that in a court of law. Not that I wish to see that, of course, because I don't want to see the game I love take that type of a hit.

It would be like me producing a product. Let's say I'm making Christmas wreaths and then selling them. I could sit here and work out a complex algorithm to decide what I consider to be the possible value of these Christmas wreaths to potential customers. I could decide that value is £20. There's nothing wrong with that. My choice... but if I put them straight on sale for £15 and announced that was a 25% discount, I would be prevented from making that advertisement within minutes... and if I continued, I would be prosecuted.

As for Inno's valuations - I know that even if this is a legal loophole that works for them in Germany, the valuation would no doubt still need to be substantiated. We can use our old friend the portal profit spell, which we discussed recently in relation to the crafting value that they place on these. I said at the time, and I still maintain, there isn't a single player who would consider a 20% portal profit spell to be worth 10 combining catalysts. There's nothing wrong with it because that's all just moving in-game resources around, but today InnoGames have put a dollar/pound value on portal profit spells by attempting to sell them for 1,440 diamonds for a 50% spell. To see them defend the claim that this is a sale including a 10% discount would be fun.

 

[CrazyWizard]

lol £50 for Air traders set, I disenchanted it today, £50 worth of stuff. £75 for Gingerbread Mansion or Mermaids Paradise, really??? Hmm, so do I get 2 Mermaids Paradise or a small LED TV... choices, choices lol. Ridiculous!!!

for FA maniacs, the mermaids paradise might be a really good building.

 

[Pauly7]

for FA maniacs, the mermaids paradise might be a really good building.

It is... and the sad thing is I imagine a few of the FA hardcore players may even go for it. At least it isn't illegal, as they aren't claiming it's a discount from £100!

 

[DeletedUser6472]

for BSA maniacs, the mermaids paradise might be a really good building.

that's not the point I'm making, the point is the pricing policy of this company is out of touch with reality, especially taking into consideration RL events and the fact that so many people around the world have lost their jobs or are on some government subsidised schemes because of covid-19.

 

[Silmaril]

We would be able to defend this @Pauly7. As an international company we also have a legal team to make sure that we are well within the law and operate in a consistent and fair manner.

 

[Killiak]

We would be able to defend this @Pauly7. As an international company we also have a legal team to make sure that we are well within the law and operate in a consistent and fair manner.

A brave statement.

Under EU law, a discount needs to be clearly shown, and the product must be on sale normally for a higher price. Since the Owl Set, or the Mermaid, or the Armorer etc, can NEVER be bought normally, I am actually calling shenanigans on this one.

Personally, I think Innogames is just flying under the radar, and is too small to be noticed by the law on this.

edit: also: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_19_1333