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Cross-Tier Trades

tommybob

Novice
Our FS is having a lot of talk about prohibiting cross-tier trades. Much of it is about offering higher tier goods and asking for lower tier goods in retrun. One position is that it is unfair to FS members to pay a larger amount of goods to get a lesser amount of higher tier goods. It has been stated that "most" advanced FSs prohibit cross-tier trades, even if they are 2 or 3 stars if the buyer has to use more goods.

I'd like to hear what other FSs have to say on the topic.
 

Silly Bubbles

Illusionist
The ratio used to be much worse couple of years ago so that's why a lot of FSs banned it. Even with current ratio the trades sit there for a long time and most of them expire before they're are taken. Personally, where the problem might be is the sifting through a lot of "stale" trades to actually help someone. In our FS we allow cross trades and it's not out of control as players do understand that when the trades sit there for a long time, there's no point of making them. You could also make a rule that cross trades can be made only when there's an arrangement made with someone to take them.
The main problem is why these players make those trades. It means that their production is not balanced and they will not progress very well relying on cross trades. I personally have no need at all to make standard goods cross trades, I do sentient ones but they are 3 star and get taken within couple of hours. It's not that hard to balance the production and make it much easier to get trades done very quickly and have no problem getting goods when needed.
 

BlueBlou

Illusionist
I think those that prohibit cross trades are short sighted and I very much doubt if they are top teams. The needs of players change as they grow through the chapters and some may have a lot of a particular tier in some chapters which may turn out to be a struggle to get in the next chapter. Perhaps something to do with what some cultural buildings have as a secondary product.

What I see in general, is that there is a shortage of T2. If something stays a shortage for a long time, players will adapt by placing more of that manus. Number of goods across the tier spectrum may differ, but as long as the progression need is satisfied, the imbalance might actually be a balance.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
I no longer have an issue with cross tier since the modification to the trade ration.
In the past this was 1:4:16 which was predatory at best. it made no sense.

These days in most cases the value up or down for regular goods has a good balance.
You could even make the argument for T1-2-3 that it makes moree sense to make T1 and trade up as the space cost for T1 is cheaper than T3.

At the same time it cost more seeds/unurium to make T4 than T9 in a value calculation but there you have the issue of decay.
Sometimes it just makes sense to trade up or down so you can do what you need and avoid the decay.

but as you no longer neet to pay 16 times the valu from T3/6/9 to T1/4/7 I am totally fine with crosstier
In fact I often trade T7-8-9 both up and down as more than often a research needs just 1 of them. and it makes no sense to have 1 of them decay for nothing, nor to swap out factories after each research
 
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Pauly7

Magus
There is no such thing as an unfair trade. I have never understood this conversation, even when the suggested trading ratios were different. The worst it can do is make the trader look untidy with a lot of undesirable trades, but no one is being forced to take them so it is only a question of supply and demand.

If someone wants to take trades at the rates they are being offered at then someone has made it acceptable. As for fellowships, I can't imagine why any would prohibit a certain kind of trading. To me, it just seems like people just searching for things they can make rules about.
 

SkyRider99

Necromancer
I'd like to hear what other FSs have to say on the topic.
My FS mandates 2-star or better. That is by agreement, and our estimation is that it places everyone on a 'fair' footing. We do allow cross-tier trades on this basis.

We occasionally invite 0-star trades within the FS for members with smaller cities.

I freely admit this is not the only way to have a trade agreement between members. It works for us.
 

Silly Bubbles

Illusionist
Why is it that the least friendly posts get the most likes?
Something to think about here, what does it say about this Forum. ;)
Respect, acceptance, tolerance aren't overrated, without it people don't get along and fight. Of course, we will all have different views on this topic. What works for one FS, won't work for another FS. No need to judge each other for it. There's no harm in doing things differently, it's not being pushed on another FS.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
There is no such thing as an unfair trade. I have never understood this conversation, even when the suggested trading ratios were different. The worst it can do is make the trader look untidy with a lot of undesirable trades, but no one is being forced to take them so it is only a question of supply and demand.

If someone wants to take trades at the rates they are being offered at then someone has made it acceptable. As for fellowships, I can't imagine why any would prohibit a certain kind of trading. To me, it just seems like people just searching for things they can make rules about.
Me neither.
Willing seller, willing buyer.
Imagine how new, small cities could struggle if 0star trades were not allowed.
In the old case the star system gave a massive false representation of the value.

This has take so long to fix that bias agains cross trading still/might not be fixed.
If someone in authority tells you what the value of a product is enough people will pay that price not realising there scammed. it promoted poor judgement.
 

sunrae

Soothsayer
I'd like to hear what other FSs have to say on the topi
My fs has no rules about trading, members can trade what they like in a free market economy and if cross tier get taken or not it's up to the other traders. I generally don't take them as my manus are balanced and also if they are T3 to T2 or T1 they are simply unattractive, small quantities offered for much larger quantities, even three star do hang around a while. There does seem to be a lot of dust offered on my trader board which implies perhaps not enough T2 factories and too many T3 maybe ? As there seems to be a shortage of T2 (I certainly suffer from it) perhaps the discussion might be more about how many T2 manus a member has. But as to how a player trades is, in my opinion, entirely up to them. I trade with neighbours often and so don't rely just on the fs, I think most of us do. However I do try to make sure our smaller cities have enough goods to progress and become useful in the tournament & spire and will certainly take zero or one star trades when asked. The days of no cross tier trades is over since as @CrazyWizard and others have pointed out the ratio was changed but I agree there is a hangover from those times.
 

Silly Bubbles

Illusionist
There is no such thing as an unfair trade. I have never understood this conversation, even when the suggested trading ratios were different. The worst it can do is make the trader look untidy with a lot of undesirable trades, but no one is being forced to take them so it is only a question of supply and demand.
Me neither.
Willing seller, willing buyer.

Every trade that is not taken is unfair. For a trade to be fair it needs TWO parties to agree that both benefit from it. You can call it demand and supply but at the end it still means the same thing. Both parties need to benefit from the exchange for the transaction to happen.

When a trade sits there for a long time, it means that it isn’t fair and there’s no point making too many of them to spam the trader. Also, there’s a risk of annoying other players with the spam that they will stop taking that players trades altogether.

There’s no shortage of fair trades in the trader, they get taken real quick. It’s the unfair ones that stay behind. From demand and supply point of view, it’s the businesses that ignore the lack of demand for their trades that go bust.

But of course, we are fully free to make any trades we like.

As for fellowships, I can't imagine why any would prohibit a certain kind of trading. To me, it just seems like people just searching for things they can make rules about.

Imagine how new, small cities could struggle if 0star trades were not allowed.

Every FS has different types of players that like/need different things, some of them got high ranking players, some of them have new players with different needs. They put rules in because it benefits the fellows and to make sure that new fellows understand what they are getting into. Just because we don’t understand why they're doing what they're doing doesn’t make it wrong. The only wrong things are the ones that cause harm, other FSs having different rules doesn’t harm the rest of FSs. When they’re full, it obviously works for them.
 

SkyRider99

Necromancer
Every trade that is not taken is unfair. For a trade to be fair it needs TWO parties to agree that both benefit from it. You can call it demand and supply but at the end it still means the same thing. Both parties need to benefit from the exchange for the transaction to happen.
Me going off on a tangent, briefly:
What is needed to make a lie acceptable? Two parties. One person to tell the lie, and one person to believe it, or at least to not object to it.

When a trade sits there for a long time, it means that it isn’t fair and there’s no point making too many of them to spam the trader. Also, there’s a risk of annoying other players with the spam that they will stop taking that players trades altogether.
Truer words were never written. :)
 

Silly Bubbles

Illusionist
Me going off on a tangent, briefly:
What is needed to make a lie acceptable? Two parties. One person to tell the lie, and one person to believe it, or at least to not object to it.

Lie is a lie even when the whole world believes it or doesn't object to it. Living a lie doesn't make life any better. Truth, on the other hand, creates real progress towards what we want.
 

foolfighter

Alchemist
I'm with Pauly on this. If a trade is offered and someone decides to take it, then the trade is acceptable. Also just becaue a trade sits arund not being taken doesn't make it unfair. Sometimes 2-start trades can stick around because there is an overabundance of a particular good, and therefore a particular trade set up, giving significantly reduced demand. They are still fair trades.
In my FS there are no policed rules about trades and trades seem to be pretty much all 2-star. Sometimes I'll do cross-teir trades, in which case I'll generally offer at 3-star. We also help our new small cities with "free-star" circular trades. We'll ask them, for example, to;
offer 1000 T1, ask for 8000 T2
offer 1000 T2, ask for 8000 T3
offer 1000 T3, ask for 8000 T1
So they start off with T1/2/3 of 1000 each and end up with T1/2/3 of 7000 each, at no cost to themselvs.
 

Silly Bubbles

Illusionist
Also just becaue a trade sits arund not being taken doesn't make it unfair.

What seems fair to you (or Inno) is not necessarily fair to everyone. For a trade to be fair, two players need to agree that is fair so the trade is taken. For something to be fair, it needs to be beneficial to everyone involved. When it’s beneficial only to one person then it’s called selfishness.
I can think that charging billions for my services is fair as much as I want, it won’t make me a billionaire, other people need to agree that it’s fair to pay it because they benefit from it.
 

m4rt1n

Immortal
If a trade is fair it gets accepted, if unfair it will expire untaken after 7 days, I have no issues with cross tier, wait until you get into Ascended, cross tier is the only way and works well as rates and amounts are fixed.

My fellowship is open to all trades 2*+ on normal goods but plenty of exceptions for smaller players, then anything goes on Sentient goods and as above Ascended goods trades are fixed by Inno.
 

Silly Bubbles

Illusionist
wait until you get into Ascended, cross tier is the only way and works well as rates and amounts are fixed.

Yep, luckily our trades are taken when we make them by Inno otherwise it'd be real hard to get what we need.
 

foolfighter

Alchemist
What seems fair to you (or Inno) is not necessarily fair to everyone. For a trade to be fair, two players need to agree that is fair so the trade is taken. For something to be fair, it needs to be beneficial to everyone involved. When it’s beneficial only to one person then it’s called selfishness.
I can think that charging billions for my services is fair as much as I want, it won’t make me a billionaire, other people need to agree that it’s fair to pay it because they benefit from it.
You seem to have missed my point. I suggested that sometimes there is an over abundance of one particular good (in the past scrolls were a famous example problem) and even 2-star trades can sit around for ages, and even not be taken before they expire. That doesn't make them unfair, or do you think in such a situation those trades should all be 3-star?
But whether trades are fair to me, or Inno, is irrelevant. We are not compelled to take trades so if they are not wanted then avoid them. I don't see the problem. Those offering "unfair" trades might be selfish, but if no one takes their trades then they gain nothing, and if someone takes them then both parties have concluded it's a fair trade, regardless of what anyone else thinks about it.
 
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