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cross tier trades - an AM's perspective

Fyrebird

Spellcaster
I know this is a hotly debated topic and I'm not wishing to open a can of worms. I was asked recently why we have the no cross-tier policy so I would simply like to share my perspective.

I think many of the players that have had their cities since the dawn of time have forgotten how very challenging resources can be when you first start out. Lower level cities use a whole lot more T1 & T2 compared to T3. Since we are encouraged to build efficient cities we build our boosts, and we mostly rely on our team members to help out with the unboosted resources. So if you have a team of mostly smaller cities, the overall demand of T1 and T2 is also way in excess of the demand on T3. If players are offering their T3 and asking for T1 who will then supply the much needed unboosted T1?

As a leader I feel not only responsible for having a balanced, efficient city, but also need to ensure that holistically my team is also balanced and efficient. In larger cities and fellowships where players have gangsta resources they can afford to be flexible with cross tiers trades. But while players are still building their cities and trying to figure out the correct balance, promoting cross trades is actually doing them a disservice. How can they figure out they don't have enough of a certain tier factory if you are supporting the lack?
Now i'm aware of the strategy of higher ranking players saving space by only building T3... my question is: where does your T1 & T2 come from? Someone is using time and resources to make it, right? Again, the high ranking players with plentiful resources may not feel the burn, but smaller players sure do!

I feel if you care about the well-being of your team limiting the amount of cross tier trades will be your concern. If you have a large portion of smaller players its important to adjust your thinking to accommodate their needs. If you are in a fellowship you don't play without having a knock-on effect on others, and (IMO) you are either helping or hindering your team mates.

Thank you for listening to my Ted's Talk ;)
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
Personally I'm an extreme example in that not only do I not have T1 or T2 but I have no T3 manufactories either. I have zero manufactories, except for Sentient and once I'm done with Elvenar those too will go into inventory. I never cater in the tournament anymore, use troops wherever possible and get resources from other buildings like Mermaids (T1), Panda Bears (T2), Wells (T3) or Pyramid (T4, T5 and T6). I trade to balance out my resources, sometimes that will be crosstier one direction, sometimes another. I see no difference between crosstier trades and trading from your boost to an unboosted good - I'm offering what I have and don't need and wait someone to find that to be a worthwhile trade in the other direction for them.

If you don't like a trade, ignore it. The only reason trades are being placed is people on the other side are accepting them - so what's the problem?
 

Pauly7

Magus
I do understand the sentiment. Cross-tier trades are not "unfair" and people can make their own choices, sure, but as there are only a small proportion of people willing to accept any of these trades then it hurts the balance within the FS if all the bigger players have cities geared to cross-tier trade.

I have never been a fan of banning them. There are a variety of reasons for people to need to do them, but I also like to encourage balanced cities where mostly same tier trading is possible.

The other thing I like to encourage is a sensible rate for trading across tiers. Personally I do it when I need to balance, but I only trade T3 to T2 or T2 to T1 and I always trade now at a ratio of 1:1.5 (ie trade 5,000 gems for 7,500 scrolls).
 

Fyrebird

Spellcaster
If you don't like a trade, ignore it. The only reason trades are being placed is people on the other side are accepting them - so what's the problem?
While i understand that some people choose to make an unconventional approach to city building, many players have 'vanilla' cities with all 3 tiers. In my fellowship we are all like-minded in terms of trade. All heck breaks loose if someone posts a cross-tier as they have all chosen the team because of the no cross-tier rule. I feel that a team should reflect the game style, and if a game style is not compatible then another team should be found... no hard feelings. We cannot change one another, only accept what is. My team likes to find 'clean' same tier trades in their traders and i either support that or lose key members.
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
So I'm a bit confused as to what your point is. Your Fellowship has a no cross-tier rule. Mine does not. When I looked to change my Fellowship last year as I wanted to join a 10-chest Fellowship I made sure to pick one without the rule.

There's a 'Fellowship only' filter in the trader. If you tick that and your Fellows stick to your rules then you won't see any cross tiers. What's the issue then?

Within my Fellowship there's always since I joined been an attitude towards crosstier trades of you're welcome to post them but don't expect or rely upon anyone in the Fellowship accepting them. That's fair enough IMO. Most of my crosstiers in the past when I placed them were accepted by my neighbours not my Fellows.
 

Fyrebird

Spellcaster
So I'm a bit confused as to what your point is.
Randblade, your own words are "you are an extreme example". You obviously don't like rules because you are non-conformist. And that's great, but not everyone is and it would be healthy for you to accept that. I didn't write this post to argue with you. I wrote it to create awareness of smaller player's trade needs... if you are not 'woke' then that's also okay ;)
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
Who says I don't like rules? I abide by all my Fellowships rules and always have done! I've only been in 2 Fellowships, my original one had no rules on crosstier and when I changed Fellowship to get into a more competitive one I made sure to find one without a crosstier rule.

Smaller players trade needs vary, not every player plays like you do. I find the presumption that you can speak for everyone rather hubristic, I made clear I was speaking for myself alone and so are you. I was a smaller player once and my attitude to trade has never changed since. Trade offers stuff you don't want for stuff you do.

As for mobile of course you can exclude crosstier. If you want to trade Tier 2 and your boost is Scrolls then you can select: Demand Scrolls, Offer Crystal, then take any trades you want then change it to Demand Scrolls and Offer Silk and take any trades you want. Job done.

EDIT: PS since I am a larger player now, I'm only trading with other large players. I put up high volume trades which the trader will automatically filter out of smaller players windows since if you don't have the quantity of goods demanded for a trade then it is greyed out and sent to the back of the list. So the idea this is some sort of large v small player issue is moot. The only difference between large and small players is large players have extra 0's on their trades.
 
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Fyrebird

Spellcaster
I find the presumption that you can speak for everyone rather hubristic
gees will i never learn my lesson? you argued like a mofo with our last debate (and got personal and nasty), and now i find you arguing again!! I made it clear it was my perspective... is this proud having a perspective??

I will now simply ignore you as you give the impression of being an argumentative, opinionated man unable to accept others opinons if they are contrary to your own.... so long and thanks for all the fish.
 

DeletedUser8632

Guest
The other thing I like to encourage is a sensible rate for trading across tiers. Personally I do it when I need to balance, but I only trade T3 to T2 or T2 to T1 and I always trade now at a ratio of 1:1.5 (ie trade 5,000 gems for 7,500 scrolls).

For my this is much more relevant. I have fairly balanced resources so I can afford to occasionally cross-trade but don't insult me by asking 39998 silk for your 10K gems.
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
gees will i never learn my lesson? you argued like a mofo with our last debate (and got personal and nasty), and now i find you arguing again!! I made it clear it was my perspective... is this proud having a perspective??

I will now simply ignore you as you give the impression of being an argumentative, opinionated man unable to accept others opinons if they are contrary to your own.... so long and thanks for all the fish.
I never went personal or nasty. I gave my own perspective, prefacing it with the fact that I was speaking personally. Then you quoted my words back at me and attacked me saying "You obviously don't like rules because you are non-conformist" - what were you intending by accusing me of not liking rules except being 'argumentative, opinionated' etc?

I'm happy to accept others opinions. If you don't like a trade ignore it - I even tried to help you because you claimed there was no way to exclude cross tier trades in mobile and I told you how to do so. Why would I try and help you if I just wanted an argument. And gee I tried to help you after you accused me of "not liking rules". You claimed then to speak for 'smaller players' and made some bizarre point about me apparently being "not 'woke'" which I ignored to avoid an argument but then you accuse me of being argumentative? WTF?

I don't like your Fellowships house rule but then I'm not in your Fellowship so it doesn't apply to me. Have all the rules you like, I couldn't care less. I gave my own equally valid opinion and even I tried to help you by showing you how to exclude the trades from mobile that you claimed couldn't be excluded. Wonder why I should bother trying to help you next time?
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
PS My last word but since I was accused of "not liking rules" . . . My Fellowship has rules like "you must do visits 5 times a week" and "you must do a minimum of 1000 points each week" - from checking ElvenStats you don't meet the terms of the latter rule, does that mean you don't like rules? Or does my Fellowships rule simply not apply to you as you aren't in my Fellowship? I would have thought the latter.

I'm not against rules I am fine with rules and I'm happy for my Fellowship's rules to be applied to my Fellows, if a player fails to hit 1000 points I'm happy for them to lose their space in the Fellowship that is more important to me than what trades they post which I can very easily filter out if I'm not interested. - just as your Fellowships rules apply to your Fellows.

"No cross tier trade" is not a rule. It is a rule in your Fellowship, its a rule in some others too - but then "1000 point minimum" is a rule in many too. Each Fellowship can set its own rules and not all are the same, its up to every player to find a Fellowship with rules that suits them. If my Archmage is OK with me posting crosstier trades and happy with my Tournament scores and visits etc then that's betweeen my Archmage, my Fellows and me.
 

FieryArien

Necromancer
If you don't like a trade ignore it - I even tried to help you because you claimed there was no way to exclude cross tier trades in mobile and I told you how to do so.
and even I tried to help you by showing you how to exclude the trades from mobile that you claimed couldn't be excluded.
This is misdirected. It was me who brought up missing fellowship filter on mobile, not Fyrebird. And I must sadly say that you didn’t solve my problem*). I already have 6 boosted goods in my city. Do you sincerely believe that the filtering you suggested (setting up 2 filters per each boosted goods) is acceptable solution? For me it definitely isn’t. Simply mark me as “one of the odd players who don’t like Trader full of cross-tier trades” and don’t try to fix us. Thanks. ;-)

*) Actually the last thing I expected from you was solving my problems. You are apparently in totally different position (fellowship, user interface, preferences) and can’t fully understand my position. Just as I can’t fully understand yours.
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
This is misdirected. It was me who brought up missing fellowship filter on mobile, not Fyrebird. And I must sadly say that you didn’t solve my problem*). I already have 6 boosted goods in my city. Do you sincerely believe that the filtering you suggested (setting up 2 filters per each boosted goods) is acceptable solution? For me it definitely isn’t. Simply mark me as “one of the odd players who don’t like Trader full of cross-tier trades” and don’t try to fix us. Thanks. ;-)

*) Actually the last thing I expected from you was solving my problems. You are apparently in totally different position (fellowship, user interface, preferences) and can’t fully understand my position. Just as I can’t fully understand yours.
Sorry for confusion you both have quite similar names.

There's a Fellowship-only filter in the PC version of the game. On the mobile version then yes I do think the filtering works. Yes there are 12 possible combinations of trades from boosted to unboosted available to you, but if you're looking for a specific trade eg to trade your boosted Scrolls for unboosted Silk then that is just one combination needed. If a Fellow posts on the chat that they need Scrolls then that is again just one filter required to find the requested trade. I'm not trying to fix you for not liking trades, I was trying to suggest a way to help - the trades will be posted by those who do like them and are entirely within the rules of the game.

However beyond that as for solving your problems, I'm not a programmer for the game, I can't edit the software. if you want a Fellowship-only filter to be in the app [like there is in the PC version] then why not suggest that in the suggestions forum of the game? If enough people request this feature for the app, especially given its the an existing feature in the PC version, then they might develop it.
 

FieryArien

Necromancer
However beyond that as for solving your problems, I'm not a programmer for the game, I can't edit the software. if you want a Fellowship-only filter to be in the app [like there is in the PC version] then why not suggest that in the suggestions forum of the game? If enough people request this feature for the app, especially given its the an existing feature in the PC version, then they might develop it.
Maybe you mean something like this? ;-)
 

LazyTony

Sorcerer
The whole trading system is screwed, and it becomes extremely annoying when a new chapter is released, its only mildly annoying during normal times.

I spend waaaay too much time cycling through garbage "offer 5 goods better than 2 stars, cross tier and get 3 stars" and the order trades are placed in that are of same star level is totally wrong and way too easy to manipulate.

I think this thread is well intentioned but missing the point. Rather than players and fellowships setting personal or FS wide rules to adapt to a bad system, we need a system that encourages good player behaviour rather than bad player behaviour.

This means totally removing the star system (which works reasonably well for early game players where supplies really are an issue, but terribly for mid and late game players where space is the main bottleneck) and simply ranking trades based on the ratios of good offered and demanded, best at the top. Rather than trying to compare cross tier and same tier trades in a "overall every trade" view, have them in totally separate views where there is no need to force a comparison - trades will only be ranked against trades crossing or not crossing the same tiers and thus can be ranked purely mathematically based on ratios.

Finally, allowing trades to be partially filled would help everyone enormously. It means waaay less trades posted, and that saves everyone time posting and selecting which trades to accept. It means smaller players are never priced out of a trade - they can take part of the best value one available.
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
The whole trading system is screwed, and it becomes extremely annoying when a new chapter is released, its only mildly annoying during normal times.

I spend waaaay too much time cycling through garbage "offer 5 goods better than 2 stars, cross tier and get 3 stars" and the order trades are placed in that are of same star level is totally wrong and way too easy to manipulate.

I think this thread is well intentioned but missing the point. Rather than players and fellowships setting personal or FS wide rules to adapt to a bad system, we need a system that encourages good player behaviour rather than bad player behaviour.

This means totally removing the star system (which works reasonably well for early game players where supplies really are an issue, but terribly for mid and late game players where space is the main bottleneck) and simply ranking trades based on the ratios of good offered and demanded, best at the top. Rather than trying to compare cross tier and same tier trades in a "overall every trade" view, have them in totally separate views where there is no need to force a comparison - trades will only be ranked against trades crossing or not crossing the same tiers and thus can be ranked purely mathematically based on ratios.

Finally, allowing trades to be partially filled would help everyone enormously. It means waaay less trades posted, and that saves everyone time posting and selecting which trades to accept. It means smaller players are never priced out of a trade - they can take part of the best value one available.
The app already does appear to rank by ratio, while the PC version appears to rank by size.

Allowing a portion of a trade to be taken is a fantastic idea. That would mean instead of placing dozens of the same trade taking up multiple pages I could place just one trade and people could either take a portion of it or leave it. That's a great idea!
 

RainbowElvira

Sorcerer
The whole trading system is screwed, and it becomes extremely annoying when a new chapter is released, its only mildly annoying during normal times.

I spend waaaay too much time cycling through garbage "offer 5 goods better than 2 stars, cross tier and get 3 stars" and the order trades are placed in that are of same star level is totally wrong and way too easy to manipulate.

I think this thread is well intentioned but missing the point. Rather than players and fellowships setting personal or FS wide rules to adapt to a bad system, we need a system that encourages good player behaviour rather than bad player behaviour.

This means totally removing the star system (which works reasonably well for early game players where supplies really are an issue, but terribly for mid and late game players where space is the main bottleneck) and simply ranking trades based on the ratios of good offered and demanded, best at the top. Rather than trying to compare cross tier and same tier trades in a "overall every trade" view, have them in totally separate views where there is no need to force a comparison - trades will only be ranked against trades crossing or not crossing the same tiers and thus can be ranked purely mathematically based on ratios.

Finally, allowing trades to be partially filled would help everyone enormously. It means waaay less trades posted, and that saves everyone time posting and selecting which trades to accept. It means smaller players are never priced out of a trade - they can take part of the best value one available.

All good suggestions. However, none of these ideas is new - there have been countless suggestions on the forums to improve the trader - to no avail. The devs aren't even embarrased about the totally useless "No fee" filter on the app. Sorry, but I lost any hope to see a decent solution to the trading issues.
 
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