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Changes to Spire Rewards - BETA

SoggyShorts

Necromancer
I'm sorry, am I not understanding these comments correctly? Why the hate on the Stonehenge?
Because players either have a level 10 Stonehenge already or a level 1.
Winning 4 or 5 artifacts doesn't help any of them.

Players like me who have half the artifacts needed for the Stonehenge are super rare- I mean how many people quit mid-event and came back?
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
Because players either have a level 10 Stonehenge already or a level 1.
Winning 4 or 5 artifacts doesn't help any of them.

Players like me who have half the artifacts needed for the Stonehenge are super rare- I mean how many people quit mid-event and came back?
Place it on the first try if you get lucky, place it on the second run when you are less lucky

If this is they way to go, then these artefects will reappear again.
There are about 6 mayor events a year
there are 8 times 6 weeks and 1 time 4 weeks in a year. this means that if they cycle trough "old buildings" then each year they will have to repeat 3 more artefacts then they bring out new ones.
This means everything has to return, for als long as they are dedicated to this format. this means it's not a once in a lifetime thing that artefacts return. off course it will take a long time before they return, but return they will.
 

Gargon667

Immortal
Place it on the first try if you get lucky, place it on the second run when you are less lucky

If this is they way to go, then these artefects will reappear again.
There are about 6 mayor events a year
there are 8 times 6 weeks and 1 time 4 weeks in a year. this means that if they cycle trough "old buildings" then each year they will have to repeat 3 more artefacts then they bring out new ones.
This means everything has to return, for als long as they are dedicated to this format. this means it's not a once in a lifetime thing that artefacts return. off course it will take a long time before they return, but return they will.
The time until next return is growing exponentially though ;) every time they invent new evolving building it will be added to the queue. Soon it will be years in between iterations of the same. I do not believe it will happen though.
 

Gargon667

Immortal
I'm sorry, am I not understanding these comments correctly? Why the hate on the Stonehenge? Sure, in early game a pretty mediocre building, but later game and I'm excited to have another mana/seed producing building. Isn't that the strategy: to evolve the buildings that were helpful to us and ignore the ones that are not? Sure, so we get to stockpile artifacts from spire that we're not using... but we were doing that anyway over that past few years since they first introduced to the game.
I like the idea of going back systematically through the old evolving buildings and being able to get artifacts. Some of the buildings were not worth it then, but now they are... simply because we've all leveled up a few chapters.
I personally don´t hate the Stonehenge, I have it upgraded and evolved :) I do dislike in general the inability to teleport evolving buildings. Which is why I don´t place any more of them until that problem is fixed. I like to have some space. All my evolvers are current chapter and fully evolved. If I could teleport them I would use them like a library and put them into storage and put it back into the town depending on situation. But the way it is I have no more interest in further evolving building, less so ones i already have and therefore cannot get again.

I can see that people may want to replace a low chapter or deleted evolver, but they would probably need a full 9 artifacts to make that interesting... judging from the comments here on the phoenix experiment, 9 artifacts seems rather unlikely.

Small towns? what are they going to do with a semi evolved soon outdated evolving building? Most likely they waste space on something that would be more useful if sold...

compared to a Moonstone library with actually good production (far above standard buildings for each of them) of all kinds of goods. T2 and T3 in low chapters, mana, and seeds/sentient goods later on and, if completed, an additional CC per day.

I find the choice rather obvious no matter how advanced a town is.
 

SoggyShorts

Necromancer
Place it on the first try if you get lucky, place it on the second run when you are less lucky

If this is they way to go, then these artefects will reappear again.
There are about 6 mayor events a year
there are 8 times 6 weeks and 1 time 4 weeks in a year. this means that if they cycle trough "old buildings" then each year they will have to repeat 3 more artefacts then they bring out new ones.
This means everything has to return, for als long as they are dedicated to this format. this means it's not a once in a lifetime thing that artefacts return. off course it will take a long time before they return, but return they will.
  1. Birds
  2. Bears
  3. May tree
  4. Stonehenge
  5. Golem
  6. Gingerbread
  7. Valentine
  8. Mermaid
  9. Witch
That's already more than a year per cycle and doesn't include Coldfire bird, Ashen Bird(next), Moonbear or any that I've forgotten.

So, we have

1. Players with level 10 Stonehenge who get nothing
2. Players with level 1 Stonehenge who get a handful of artifacts and must wait over a year to get more before it makes sense to place.
3. Players who are very lucky and get enough artifacts in one go to make it worth placing.
4. Oddballs who quit partway through the original event and are back.

Obviously, I don't have stats, but how many are in groups 3&4? 10%? maybe 15%? 5% total? That's pretty sad.
 
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Pauly7

Magus
Well, it's impossible to calculate an exact probability as we don't know how many of the mystery chests are purple, gold and blue, but I expect the chances of reaching 9 or 10 artefacts drop off considerably, just as it will be really unlikely for people to win 0 or 1... even though it does happen, of course.

The Stonehenge evolving building is mediocre. Some people like it and some people don't, but it's certainly no gimme. Even for its fans, it's going to need to be level 9 or 10 before it's useful, so as you say, that cuts out everyone except players who are both a) quite new and b) get extremely lucky winning artefacts or people who, like yourself, somehow ended up with between 3 and 8 Stonehenge Artefacts the first time through. For everyone else the Spire holds no excitement for 6 weeks. We must play and be content with the time-boosters and diamonds. They, of course, still make it very much worthwhile, but there's no excitement. All it's going to do is cause resentment from the people who want to win 9 and can't and the people who don't want the artefacts and are annoyed that they are winning them.

I wasn't the biggest fan of putting Phoenix Artefacts into the Spire, but the plan works. It works on so many levels... there were 3 birds to begin with and even a level 2 Firebird is worth having.

For me this just looks like another case of the Inno Devs having no idea how to play their own game.
 

Gargon667

Immortal
For me this just looks like another case of the Inno Devs having no idea how to play their own game.
I have been thinking a bit more about this, well obviously they don´t care about playing the game, they care about earning money with their game and I am wondering if there might be any financial incentive to bringing back those old evolves? So far it is still not possible to buy the remaining artifacts, right?
Half evolved buildings that cannot be finished will be a huge source of unhappy folks, a half evolved building that can be finished with money might be a money printing machine worth having the rest of players complain... I am rather sure they´d find enough newbies putting money on the table to finish evolving the Stonehenge in chapter 3 just to be forced to sell it 2 months later, because it´s outdated. I wonder if Inno is waiting for people to start complaining about having a half evolved Stonehenge to add the diamond option and say: "We are listening to your feedback"

Man, sometimes I scare myself when telling horror stories...
 

Pauly7

Magus
I have been thinking a bit more about this, well obviously they don´t care about playing the game, they care about earning money with their game and I am wondering if there might be any financial incentive to bringing back those old evolves? So far it is still not possible to buy the remaining artifacts, right?
I think if they understood that Stonehenge is not on anyone's wish list then they wouldn't be starting something that will end up having so little relevance to most players. If they understood it well enough and wanted to sell the artefacts then they should also appreciate which buildings would make people want to spend the money and which wouldn't

If they really wanted to make this a money spinner then they could just sell Spire mystery chests for diamonds - 1,000 for purple, 500 for gold, 300 for blue (though if it follows the pattern of how much they try to sell event currency for you could probably triple those numbers). If people are really frantic about not getting their final few artefacts then plenty would spin the wheel to get them.
 

Gargon667

Immortal
I think if they understood that Stonehenge is not on anyone's wish list then they wouldn't be starting something that will end up having so little relevance to most players. If they understood it well enough and wanted to sell the artefacts then they should also appreciate which buildings would make people want to spend the money and which wouldn't

If they really wanted to make this a money spinner then they could just sell Spire mystery chests for diamonds - 1,000 for purple, 500 for gold, 300 for blue (though if it follows the pattern of how much they try to sell event currency for you could probably triple those numbers). If people are really frantic about not getting their final few artefacts then plenty would spin the wheel to get them.
The tricky thing is to sell things that don´t actually change the balance of the game. They don´t want a pay-to-win game. Elvenar is much less P2W than other games and I think that is intentional. So they need to sell things that don´t make you win :D Evolving buildings appeal to the OCD in all of us. Everybody wants to evolve it, just because. I can see lot´s of new towns spending money on this without anyone getting any actual benefit...

Anyway I do not really believe this conspiracy theory, it was just a thought. Much more likely would be it is just another thing that wasn´t really thought through ;) Something like:

Boss: "Hey what shall we do with the spire next?"
Team: "Meh" "why do I always have to come up with ideas?" "do with the what?" "where´s my coffee mug?" "are the 6 weeks up already?" "shut it down!"
Programming intern: "Why not cycle it through all the old evolves? Requires no additional programming!"
Team: "Great! And we don´t have to think about what really to do with it for another year!"
Boss: "Perfect, just enough time after the coffe break to put it on beta tomorrow! Get on it dear programming intern!"
 

Pauly7

Magus
Anyway I do not really believe this conspiracy theory, it was just a thought. Much more likely would be it is just another thing that wasn´t really thought through ;) Something like:

Boss: "Hey what shall we do with the spire next?"
Team: "Meh" "why do I always have to come up with ideas?" "do with the what?" "where´s my coffee mug?" "are the 6 weeks up already?" "shut it down!"
Programming intern: "Why not cycle it through all the old evolves? Requires no additional programming!"
Team: "Great! And we don´t have to think about what really to do with it for another year!"
Boss: "Perfect, just enough time after the coffe break to put it on beta tomorrow! Get on it dear programming intern!"
I think you're probably right, but it still comes down to understanding the game. If any of the devs played the game like we do then they wouldn't have to put much thought into things that could be a good idea, things that would work, things that wouldn't. I'm sure if they sat you and I down and said - give us some ideas for new spire rewards, then we would have come up with a decent list before they even finished making that coffee... but that's because we play the game and can see things that are needed, wanted, or fair.
 

Regina8

Soothsayer
If any of the devs played the game like we do then they wouldn't have to put much thought into things that could be a good idea, things that would work, things that wouldn't. I'm sure if they sat you and I down and said - give us some ideas for new spire rewards, then we would have come up with a decent list before they even finished making that coffee... but that's because we play the game and can see things that are needed, wanted, or fair.
So my question is, why not to have a thread here, in the forum, called "Player's Focus Group", where we could give some possible ideas, if they asked us to. I mean, they will never know more about this game, than we do, so why not use our expertise to improve it. I'm sure that many players, like MinMax for example, could contribute to such thread not just ideas, but a thorough detailed calculations if needed to support those ideas.
 

Gargon667

Immortal
So my question is, why not to have a thread here, in the forum, called "Player's Focus Group", where we could give some possible ideas, if they asked us to. I mean, they will never know more about this game, than we do, so why not use our expertise to improve it. I'm sure that many players, like MinMax for example, could contribute to such thread not just ideas, but a thorough detailed calculations if needed to support those ideas.
If they wanted that they could have gotten that a long time ago, I don´t think that is really the question...

There is no 2-way-communication, they never ask anything. We say whatever we like and then they do whatever they like, nothing ever comes back from the black hole :D

We already have a whole section called "Suggestions" I am always happy to contribute, but I doubt another thread in there will make a major change in how things go...
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
I think you're probably right, but it still comes down to understanding the game. If any of the devs played the game like we do then they wouldn't have to put much thought into things that could be a good idea, things that would work, things that wouldn't. I'm sure if they sat you and I down and said - give us some ideas for new spire rewards, then we would have come up with a decent list before they even finished making that coffee... but that's because we play the game and can see things that are needed, wanted, or fair.
Asking for opportunities to get artefacts after the fact is a question that was asked sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many times in the past, this was the perfect opportunity when they needed a new prize in the spire.
It also creates more spire engangement which hopelully to them increases income.

I think they just went trough there pile of what people "wanted" and this fitted the bill as there are enough evolving buildings now to make it work.
 

FieryArien

Illusionist
I’m looking forward Stonehenge.
- My Traders city will probably replace the old base with a new one from MA and use the 9 artifacts I already have. The artifacts in the Spire don’t bother me, I’ll still happily do my 2 levels for a chance of Magic residence/workshop, Dwarven Armorer, Genie, Time boosts, Coins/Supply instants, Fragments and CCs (did I forget something? PP spells were omitted on purpose for this city - my Orcs city is thrilled when it gets them).
- My Constructs city will try to get the 4 artifacts on top of the 5 I already have. (I did not take a break, I guess the event was just really badly timed for that city.) And I’ll replace the base.
- My young Orcs beta city will welcome a chance to get Stonehenge artifacts. Even if there’s not enough of them - who knows what can be done with them in the future. I like to keep my options open. ;-)

That being said, I do understand people had high hopes for the changes in Spire rewards and the disappointment might be bitter.
 

Stucon

Scholar
Point of order.
You only need 9 artefacts to fully evolve a building as you start at level one.
Just saying
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
I disagree. I think Stonehenge Artefacts will kill spire engagement.
why?
If you are already a spire player will you quit the spire because there no longer is a moonstone set?
I don't think so.

Just because you do not like a certain prize doesn't mean nobody likes it.
There are a lot of players who just play it for the visuals, they like the looks, they want it.

Also do not forget how often we had seen posts in the past about how to gain artefact X with the bases being active in the MA.
Now you can point to options.

It's clear why players like us play the spire, but what about the ones that just like good looking things and do not care about all the integration tournament / spire mumbo jumbo?

casuals who want that pretty thing are also more likely to spend a few diamonds in the spire, because it's only a small sum....and they wint the shiny thing.
I know plenty people who just bought a marlo because it was pretty and it did fit wel in there zoo, same with the useless diamond unicorn.
Go look at cities at place 1000 and below and see what kind of "crazy" decisions they make (in hour eyes)

Look at how some whales spend money on the game without 50 blue buildings.
I think this move is to target a group that's NOT US.
 

SoggyShorts

Necromancer
why?
If you are already a spire player will you quit the spire because there no longer is a moonstone set?
I don't think so.
As someone with 3 fellowships that all changed from casual spire to weekly Gold Spire in the last 2 months, I can tell you that the last chance at moonstone sets and a shot at the coveted phoenix artifacts were a HUGE motivator for those who didn't do full spires weekly.