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Are They Making the Tournaments Harder?

LadyHavva

Illusionist
I sometimes loose a fight in the third round in a tournament province on the first page (fighting map problems I guess), I just cater that fight and then continue fighting and win all the fights again for several provinces. But of course doing a lot of provinces mean I spend a lot of troops, but not so much that I can't sustain reasonable scores each week.
 

FieryArien

Scholar
The strategy that I've done is to do all squad size upgrades as it makes world provinces easier and I didn't notice any difference or slight improvement in the tournament points (I only fight in the tournament using autofight, not trying too hard at this moment).
I did notice. I don’t know if elves have the same mean setup in the technology tree, but humans have 2 mandatory squad size upgrades at the end of chapter 4 and another 2 mandatory squad size upgrades right at the beginning of chapter 5.
E3065851-D0DF-425A-8F12-B18F5E573437.jpeg
I progressed through that part relatively quickly (to reach chapter V before winning buildings in the current Winter event, I think) and the impact of those researches on my tournament experience was very very painful. Obviously I couldn’t have or train nearly enough troops to fight as far/as deep as before, but also the catering cost went noticeably up.
 

Killiak

Shaman
I progressed through that part relatively quickly (to reach chapter V before winning buildings in the current Winter event, I think) and the impact of those researches on my tournament experience was very very painful. Obviously I couldn’t have or train nearly enough troops to fight as far/as deep as before, but also the catering cost went noticeably up.
Indeed. You need to push armouries, AW's and barracks to compensate for the greater losses.
This becomes increasingly painful the harder you push on the tournaments. For people who actually try and score around 2K average, it becomes extremely noticeable.

It has already been shown and calculated, so we know it affects players as a whole, even if some of us don't notice it.
 

m4rt1n

Artisan
If the squad size upgrades are making tournaments harder, I should noticeably have lower points in the tournaments, I'm in Amuni so my points should be much lower than my points in Fairies. And yes, as your list says there's a lot to it, a good challenge to explain the mystery :)
My tournament scores are also improving and I've taken all the optional squad size upgrades.
Yes, I upgrade the fighting wonders but not that quickly, and I have learned to do well in manual fighting.
 

SoggyShorts

Sorcerer
I have learned to do well in manual fighting.
This changes everything.
I have lost auto-fights and then tried the same one with the same troops manually and won with almost zero losses.
The A.I. isn't terrible, but what it will never do is wait. On auto-fight, my guy was running forward and plugging the bottleneck so I got killed off one by one.
In manual, I did nothing round 1 and the enemy came forward to plug that bottleneck 1 at a time as I killed them.
The problem is one of time. 100-160 encounters would be a part-time job:eek:
There is, as usual, an ideal middle ground: Start the fight manually to make sure your troops are on the right path and not doing something stupid, and then click finish. This is theoretically a great balance between time & results, but personally, I'm too lazy and simply use auto fight 99% of the time.
 

RainbowElvira

Enchanter
Every time I upgrade my squad size my tournament points either don’t change or improve. There’s still a missing element to the explanation.
Let me try...

I hope I'm not the only one that stops fighting once I start losing fights and keep my troops for next day when it's easier in the first couple of provinces.
The criterium for ending a round is the difficulty of the fight, and the squad size does not alter the difficulty of the fight. Independent of your squad size you will loose the same battle for the same setup.

At the end of the end of the tournament you count the tournament points - and do not care about troop losses, since you can easily fill them up again.
Your troops will become better when you research unit upgrades, allowing you to win more fights and score higher. This explains why your score ever improved.

Almost everybody else fights a set amount of provinces and counts their troop losses at the end of the tournament. In this case the squad size really matters. They might have to adapt the number of provinces to keep sustainable.
 

CleverAngel777

Enchanter
The criterium for ending a round is the difficulty of the fight, and the squad size does not alter the difficulty of the fight. Independent of your squad size you will loose the same battle for the same setup.
There's a random element to the difficulty of the fights, it is possible that it's influenced by other factors rather than just squad size. Here's the explanation that I posted earlier:

- there are four fights in each province. Our squad size is the same for all four fights based on the calculation above, the enemy squad size changes but it’s AVERAGE is as calculated above. The problem is that the range can be quite large, it can vary +-10% and in some case even 25%. So it’s possible that even in province 1 round 1, you can face enemy squad size bigger than yours. Of course if you lose in this province, it will not cost you much as your squad size is quite small. However, if you lose in province 10 round 1, it will cost you 10x more. The higher the province, the harder it will be to recoup your losses as you squad size is higher. This is the reason why I stop on the first loss and wait for the next day when my squad size and therefore risk goes down again.
At the end of the end of the tournament you count the tournament points - and do not care about troop losses, since you can easily fill them up again.
This is interesting because that was one of my points that the increased losses due to increased squad size can be replaced easily.

I did notice. I don’t know if elves have the same mean setup in the technology tree, but humans have 2 mandatory squad size upgrades at the end of chapter 4 and another 2 mandatory squad size upgrades right at the beginning of chapter 5.
I progressed through that part relatively quickly (to reach chapter V before winning buildings in the current Winter event, I think) and the impact of those researches on my tournament experience was very very painful. Obviously I couldn’t have or train nearly enough troops to fight as far/as deep as before, but also the catering cost went noticeably up.
There can be a timing issue between your Barracks and Armories upgrades and squad size upgrades. The catering costs do go up the more difficult the fight is and also down the easier it is. Increased squad size makes province fights easier and therefore should make catering costs easier but we haven't covered that in this discussion, that's a topic for another analysis and discussion. If you don't mind that your world provinces are getting harder then skipping squad size upgrades can give you some advantage in the tournament.
 

SoggyShorts

Sorcerer
There's a random element to the difficulty of the fights
There is not. The formula has already been discussed in this thread, and there is no randomness in what you face when a fight starts. There is a range of damage that each unit does, and that is random, but the number of troops that you face follows a strict formula without exceptions.
it is possible that it's influenced by other factors rather than just squad size
It is not. I will dig through the forums later and find the exact numbers for you, and you can test them yourself.
Basically, when facing 5 enemy stacks, the formula discussed in this thread is 100% accurate, and when facing 4 enemy stacks it will be 10% less, and 6 enemy stacks 10% more 7 enemy stacks 20% more and so on. Note: the 10% and 20% are not correct, as I said I'll have to look them up since there is no tournament today, but they are completely consistent and there is no randomness or mystery involved.
Every time I upgrade my squad size my tournament points either don’t change or improve.
I've been wondering about this, so I had a look at www.elvenstats.com, and the results might surprise you.
Presumably, in the last 9 weeks you have unlocked at least 1 SS tech, and below you can see how your tournament scores have changed from tournament to tournament. To be fair since each tournament type is slightly different I compared gems vs the gems before, planks vs the planks before etc
9 week comparrison.png

That's a pretty definitive drop in points over the last 9 week period. How much of that is due to caring less about the tournament is impossible to guess, but if you have gotten any SS upgrades in the past 9 weeks, and have put in a similar effort, you can see the impact.
 
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CleverAngel777

Enchanter
I've been wondering about this, so I had a look at www.elvenstats.com, and the results might surprise you.
Presumably, in the last 9 weeks you have unlocked at least 1 SS tech, and below you can see how your tournament scores have changed from tournament to tournament. To be fair since each tournament type is slightly different I compared gems vs the gems before, planks vs the planks before etc

That's a pretty definitive drop in points over the last 9 week period.
Yes, you can see how lazier I got ;)
I stopped using Training Grounds as I got sick of changing between Barracks and Training Grounds and changing tabs in the autofight. And also the summer started here so I went on more trips, I love my motorbike :)
Analysing my tournament points can derail the discussion.
 

SoggyShorts

Sorcerer
Unfortunately, you have to believe me when I tell you results that I got.
Unless...there's proof that shows the opposite?:p
I mean I believe that you didn't notice a drop, and I believe that you thought you noticed an increase, but the data from elvenstats shows the opposite, and also supports the proven math on how squad size upgrades work.
 

CleverAngel777

Enchanter
@SoggyShorts Since September 15, Silly Bubbles account is using exactly the same tournament strategy as my account including researching all squad size upgreades. You can compare the two, as me and my hubby do things together :)

Also, have you confirmed the bellow calculations now when tournament started? What are your results?

I’ve done my own numbers and this is what I came up with:

- our squad size increases by 5% as you progress through the provinces, it’s the same for every round and stops increasing at province no 20 when in becomes 100% (eg in province no 1 our tournament squad size is 5% of our total squad size, in province 2 its 10%, in province no 10 it’s 50% - if our total squad size is 1000, our tournament squad size in round 1 is 50, in round 2 100 and in round 10 500)

- enemy squad size is based on percentage of our tournament squad size and doesn’t change as you progress through the provinces, it increase from round to round by 15% starting at -15% ON AVERAGE. So in round 1, our enemy squad size is -15% of our tournament squad size on average, round 2 is 0% on average, round 3 15% on average etc (eg if our total squad size is 1000, our tournament squad size in province 1 and round 1 is 50, the enemy size on average will be 43 – -15% of 50)

- there are four fights in each province. Our squad size is the same for all four fights based on the calculation above, the enemy squad size changes but it’s AVERAGE is as calculated above. The problem is that the range can be quite large, it can vary +-10% and in some case even 25%. So it’s possible that even in province 1 round 1, you can face enemy squad size bigger than yours. Of course if you lose in this province, it will not cost you much as your squad size is quite small. However, if you lose in province 10 round 1, it will cost you 10x more. The higher the province, the harder it will be to recoup your losses as you squad size is higher. This is the reason why I stop on the first loss and wait for the next day when my squad size and therefore risk goes down again. Also, I forgot to mention that I don’t have any AWs that boost my troops.
 

SoggyShorts

Sorcerer
What are your results?
The formula is as I stated previously:

Enemy squad size = (round bonus * province number/20)* stack adjustment

round 1= 0.85
round 2=1.00
round 3=1.15
round 4=1.30
round 5=1.45
round 6=1.60

enemy has 4 stacks = 0.96
enemy has 5 stacks = 1.00
enemy has 6 stacks = 1.047
enemy has 7 stacks = 1.098
enemy has 8 stacks = 1.137


I suspect that there are some rounding issues in the stack adjustment, and more accurate percentages can be found in higher provinces where less rounding is needed-- it's probably all 5% increments. I am however tired of proving the same facts over and over again, so feel free to check for yourself, I'm done.
 

CleverAngel777

Enchanter
There's more to it. This could imply random element and if it does it's quite significant.

- there are four fights in each province. Our squad size is the same for all four fights based on the calculation above, the enemy squad size changes but it’s AVERAGE is as calculated above. The problem is that the range can be quite large, it can vary +-10% and in some case even 25%.
 

RainbowElvira

Enchanter
Enemy squad size = (round bonus * province number/20)* stack adjustment

round 1= 0.85
round 2=1.00
round 3=1.15
round 4=1.30
round 5=1.45
round 6=1.60
enemy has 4 stacks = 0.96
enemy has 5 stacks = 1.00
enemy has 6 stacks = 1.047
enemy has 7 stacks = 1.098
enemy has 8 stacks = 1.137
Your formula needs to be multiplied with your own squad size ;) I haven't noticed the stack adjustment factor - learned something, thank you :)

The formula was valid for every encounter I checked (rounding errors ignored). So, I think there's no randomness there.
 

CleverAngel777

Enchanter
"In probability theory and statistics, variance is the expectation of the squared deviation of a random variable from its mean. Informally, it measures how far a set of (random) numbers are spread out from their average value. ... Variance is an important tool in the sciences, where statistical analysis of data is common."

The way I see it that if it was fixed there wouldn't be a variance. Our tournament squad size is fixed, it doesn't change for any of the four rounds. Enemy squad size changes (adjusted to the same number of stacks by multiplying their squad size by their number of stacks and dividing by 5).
 

SoggyShorts

Sorcerer
@CleverAngel777
If I can accurately predict the number of troops you will face in every scenario, either it is not random, or I'm God. Your pick.

I gotta be honest, it feels like you're trolling me.

Soggy: "This is how it works"
Angel: "I think there's a random element"
Soggy: "Nothing random, here is the formula that the game uses to decide the number of troops"
Angel: "Sounds random to me"
Soggy:https://media.giphy.com/media/9e1VPfBaNvvEY/giphy.gif

I'm sorry @CleverAngel777, but for my own mental health I think I need to stop responding to your posts:rolleyes:
 
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