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Are They Making the Tournaments Harder?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Rinkidink, Dec 15, 2018.

  1. CleverAngel777

    CleverAngel777 Conjurer

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    I don't think so, you keep asking me to repeat myself, so why can't I. If it was that obvious that I was wrong why is it hard for you to show. Constructive arguments please, if you can't give me that then our conversation is completely useless and is wasting everyone's time and space on this thread.

    Please read more carefully, a feedback that is well supported by constructive arguments is not criticism. Also, it would help to ask first for my explanation before jumping to conclusions.

    Sorry, you didn't. You again addressed me personally and wanted to upset me.
     
  2. Dizzy Lizzie

    Dizzy Lizzie Co-Community Manager Elvenar Team

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2017
    Thank you for your contributions thus far to this discussion. As some of the posts are starting to be be less constructive than they could be, this is a friendly reminder that the Forum Rules require Forum Users to,
    Any further posts which do not comply with this rule are liable to be removed.

    So, back on topic please...
    Are They Making the Tournaments Harder?

     
    LadyHavva, CleverAngel777 and m4rt1n like this.
  3. Killiak

    Killiak Illusionist

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2016
    I won't link them all here because that would become a very messy post, but just go and read @SoggyShorts his posts again. It is glaringly obvious.


    @Dizzy Lizzie
    The answer to the question is simple;
    Every SS tech increases how hard a tournament is. This has been the topic of much debate on many a forum already. So yes, every mandatory SS tech is making the tournament harder.

    Do you know if there are actually any plans, with the development team, to correct the problem with optional SS tech and their negative impact on tournament play?
     
    Kethalia, EdwardTrunk and SoggyShorts like this.
  4. Dr.nYo

    Dr.nYo Adventurer

    Joined:
    May 29, 2016
    God bless you Lizzie ;) I would like to c that to Killiak, something positive should come from wasted kps :). But probly wont happen...
     
  5. CleverAngel777

    CleverAngel777 Conjurer

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    This is a very good thread that gives a good explanation what SS upgrades do to tournament difficulty.
    https://en.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/optional-squad-size-upgrades.8580/

    This is a summary but it's better to read all the information:

    - Difficulty of tournament provinces is percentage based on your real current squad size. Meaning no matter if your squad size is 200 or 2000 the difficulty is the same - the ratio of your vs. enemy troops is the same. The diffence is only in number of troops you and the enemy bring into battle.
     
  6. shadowblack

    shadowblack Necromancer

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    Speaking from personal experience:
    The bolded part is NOT true! The tournament squad size does not stop to increase at that point. It continues to increase even after province 20 (so yes, it ends up being bigger than the squad size you would have on the world map).
     
    CleverAngel777 likes this.
  7. Dr.nYo

    Dr.nYo Adventurer

    Joined:
    May 29, 2016
    province 60 took 3x squad size last time i checked. :p
     
    SoggyShorts likes this.
  8. LadyHavva

    LadyHavva Sorcerer

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2018
    I think perhaps the word difficulty is causing some confusion here. The SS upgrades aren't making the individual fights at a certain province more difficult, they are making it more difficult to reach the same score in a tournament with identical cities that only differ in whether or not they have done the optional SS research.

    Since the number of troops are higher you also loose more troops during each fight (even if the percentage of losses stay the same). Training back a higher number of troops just takes longer and therefore you will have less troops available unless your training capacity and speed increases by the same percentage, which they don't.
     
    Tree, Kethalia, Killiak and 1 other person like this.
  9. CleverAngel777

    CleverAngel777 Conjurer

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    The mystery is that me and some other players don’t have that problem. Every time I upgrade my squad size my tournament points either don’t change or improve. There’s still a missing element to the explanation. I did discuss it earlier in the thread if anyone’s interested.
     
  10. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Enchanter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2018
    I believe this was covered by other changes that happened in the 9 weeks since that tournament was up.

    1. upgraded a wonder
    2. had an easier tournament type this week (like silk is much easier than scrolls for example)
    3. logged in more often this week or the week before training troops
    4. also upgraded your barracks/TG/merc camp so you are training more per day
    5. had leftover troops of the main type
    6. chose your units in a more ideal manner than last week
    7. just rolled better. Troops do 12,000 to 20,000 damage for example, so there is some element of luck.

    IIRC you said that you don't spend your troops down to zero each week, which means that #5 could be a big factor for you.

    Do you have another theory?
     
  11. CleverAngel777

    CleverAngel777 Conjurer

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    If the squad size upgrades are making tournaments harder, I should noticeably have lower points in the tournaments, I'm in Amuni so my points should be much lower than my points in Fairies. And yes, as your list says there's a lot to it, a good challenge to explain the mystery :)
     
  12. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Enchanter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2018
    Yes, and they are. 100% for sure your SS upgrades since fairies have decreased how much you can fight in the tournaments.
    This is of course offset by how much your barracks upgrades have increased how much you can fight in the tournaments.:p
    (and anything else on the list that applies to you)
    And I just thought of another few:

    8. Troop squad upgrades. E.G. Unlocking Level 3 banshees or Cerberi makes a tournament where those are your main unit easier.
    9. Upgraded/added armories. Like the Shrewdy and Bulwark, these increase your training queue, so your barracks sits idle for shorter peroids while you are AFK (ideally zero downtime)
    10. Placed a Vallorian Vallor, GoToS, MMM, UUU, or ELR building.

    I think we've pretty much got this mystery solved :D
     
  13. CleverAngel777

    CleverAngel777 Conjurer

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    So we've explained that the squad size upgrade effect on tournament points is only one of the many variables that affect the tournament points. Now, it comes down to how significant effect it has as in my case, it doesn't seem to be very significant.
     
  14. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Enchanter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2018
    That's easy to check:
    If I counted correctly, the minimum SS would be 2235
    and the maximum SS is 3384
    That's an increase of over 50%:eek::eek::eek:

    Another way to look at it is with your SS at max and a level 29 barracks you can make as many troops as a city in chapter 9 with just a level 25 barracks
    and when you upgrade your barracks to level 33, it will be the same as someone else's at level 28

    Basically, taking all optional SS techs is like have a max level barracks from 2 chapters ago. I'd say that is very significant:(
    We've been trying to raise awareness of this issue so that hopefully someday the devs will address it.
     
    Kethalia likes this.
  15. CleverAngel777

    CleverAngel777 Conjurer

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    I just hope that it's not similar problem as with buying KPs with your coins. Players are worried that the prize of KPs goes up while it's quite insignificant compared to the ability to make more coins. In this situation, players might be worried that the squad size goes up while it's not a horrible thing if you upgrade your Barracks and Armories. Also, is this drawback enough to worry about as the increased squad size makes doing world provinces easier. I think that the key is to evenly progress in related areas, if someone progresses too much in one area and lags in another related area it can cause problems.
     
  16. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Enchanter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2018
    Oh, absolutely it is. An advanced player can easily get 150-200 KP from the tournament if they skip SS techs.(I got 335 last week) Dropping that number by a third has a huge impact on a player's advancement and on their FS. It will only get worse with the addition of the RR spell to tournaments.

    The cost of upgrading wonders goes up with each level, so a player needs to do more in the tournament each chapter in order to make the same progress. Getting the same out of each tournament from chapter 7 to 13 actually means getting fewer AW levels each time.
    This is why it doesn't work to just offset the drop in tournament ability by upgrading their barracks- they should be doing that anyways.
    In my fellowships we expect players to get at a minimum of chapter x100 points, with the goal of chapter x200 points.

    As for the tradeoff of easier world map vs easier tournament, there's no contest. Any city past chapter 6 with 3 of each boosted factory can negotiate the world map as fast as their scouts can move and doesn't need to worry about difficulty. On top of that, eventually, once they unlock orcs there is no reason to ever stop scouting until they get way out there to over 450 provinces, so negotiating is much simpler...but once they do hit 457 provinces scouted, they actually don't have a reason to scout anymore because they won't get any more expansions from it.
    Then the world map army size becomes truly useless.
    Even way before that scenario, it doesn't take long at all to reach a point where their scouts take 24h or more. That means they are getting about 56 KP and relics from the map each week which is nothing compared to the tournament. Then it goes to 48h scouts and the numbers are even worse.
    All of that is moot though since it's not one or the other. A city that skips SS techs can scout and clear on the world map just as fast as a full SS city, but can out tournament them every week.

    Anecdotally, I've seen dozens of players ask for a way to undo the optional SS techs, or to make them not count against players, but have not once ever heard from a player who skipped them and is going to go back and do them:p

    Obviously, if they don't care about advancement this doesn't affect them, but one of the biggest issues is that players are not consciously making this choice. Unless they or someone in their FS are avid forum readers it may never even occur to them that SS techs hurt them in the tournament until it is too late.:(
     
  17. CleverAngel777

    CleverAngel777 Conjurer

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    The strategy that I've done is to do all squad size upgrades as it makes world provinces easier and I didn't notice any difference or slight improvement in the tournament points (I only fight in the tournament using autofight, not trying too hard at this moment). The way I play tournament is to avoid losing battles, once I lose I stop that round and wait for next round as the squad size drops again. I do 4 rounds and therefore have 4 lost battles, I'm not sure how I would do in the 5th round. As you can see, I minimised the increased training cost in researching optional squad size upgrades. I do miss out on the KPs in the second round but I find it more efficient to buy the KPs directly with goods rather than to cater the tournament. I really need to look into the effect of squad size upgrades on the catering costs of world provinces, I couldn't find any information. If the catering costs of world provinces are reduced by optional squad size upgrades then it's down to comparison on how much you save in goods vs how much it costs you in supplies to train additional troops. And yes, there's a limit to world provinces but that can take years to get there and now being in Amuni and soon not having much to do, I'll have all my resources to adjust the strategy to improve the results.
     
  18. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Enchanter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2018
    Sadly SS upgrades have no effect on world map catering costs. World map enemy troops and negotiating costs are 100% determined by the cost to scout that province, and nothing will change those numbers once you click "scout"
    This is what makes it hard for players to notice that those SS techs are really hurting them. They see only a slight change, but what they should be seeing is a big improvement as they progress.(if they skipped)

    Ohh I should also mention, even at over 450 provinces cleared, all my options are "medium" which is quite easy to clear because AW bonuses aren't counted in difficulty ratings.:) (but I'd rather use those troops in the tournament and negotiate the map);)
    When I was at normal scouting levels for my chapter, everything was easy to medium- even as an autofighter I didn't need more than that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
  19. CleverAngel777

    CleverAngel777 Conjurer

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    Based on this information, it comes down to whether you want your world provinces fights easier or save on supplies/increase tournament points (depending on how you manage your losses and how far you push it). Even if your world province difficulty doesn't change with SS upgrade, you will still have improved squad size to deal with the fixed difficulty.

    I've noticed that catering costs in the tournament depend on how big your tournament squad size is in relation to the enemy squad size. The bigger your squad size comparing to enemy's squad size, the smaller the catering costs. This is really hard to test in world provinces because you can't scout the same province twice so you can compare before and after squad size upgrade. Maybe I can compare two provinces in the same ring, I'm not sure. I can compare two cities but there will very likely be other variables that influence the calculations. I'll eventually play more with this later.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
  20. BrightBlazeBlade

    BrightBlazeBlade Spellcaster

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2018
    and this Is why I just cater..
     

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