Ancient Wonders

[DeletedUser358]

Not sure how many of you are aware, but Elvenar is adding Ancient Wonders with the next patch. (beta next week)

If any of you play FoE...it's basically exactly like their GBs.

Forum link: https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/ancient-wonders.3507/
Wiki link: https://en.wiki.elvenar.com/index.php?title=Ancient_Wonders

What rubs me the wrong way about the current description is this:

Where do I get Rune Shards?
You can gain them for completing provinces and helping your friends research upgrades for their respective Ancient Wonders. Additionally, some quests will provide Rune Shards. You are also able to purchase Runes by forging them from Diamonds.

You get the rune shards by completing provinces and helping friends with their AWs.
To those of us that are have already gone through 150 provinces or more, this hardly seems fair.
My current province scout time is 17h-20h.

Those that have opened up say 100 or even less provinces will have a much faster scout time and will be able to acquire Rune Shards much faster.
It seems quite counter productive to me that more advanced players will get hindered by this mechanism.

The only turn around solution that I can see for this is for the devs to see how many provinces each player has already opened up and to award the proper amount of Rune Shards that the players would have naturally accumulated during the province captures.

Otherwise this mechanic is going to upset a LOT (if not all) of the players that have a high amount of provinces already opened up.

Please chime in with your thoughts, I'd really like to see what our player-base thinks about this feature.

Cheers,
NecroDee..

 

[DeletedUser]

Or perhaps you'll need to go through your provinces a second time, for Rune Shards (FoE Blueprints) rather than Relics and Knowledge Points?

I'm merely connecting the dots, but the sector tooltips on Beta are still flaky, and they've delayed the release of the Ancient Wonders.

 

[DeletedUser415]

Good point NecroDee.
I also am at 17+ hours on scouting. This would be most unfair to the higher ranked players. If this is implemented next patch, I like your idea of crediting for the amount of provinces already completed if this can be done in the update. If not, it is very unfair for us who have high scouting times at the moment and the dev's should re-asses on how this feature can be incorporated into the game and fair for all.

 

[DeletedUser]

Maybe they could allocate these as to the number of provinces you control. Meaning implement it moving forward but allocate players a number of Rune Shards basd on the amount of the map that they already control.

 

[DeletedUser]

Using up Boosted goods for the Ancient Wonders is something I would never do. If I have to use and loss my Boosted goods for weak rewards from the Ancient wonders then I am NOT building or researching them. I am near the end of the New quest system and they just introduced the Ancient wonders in Beta. I have 80k in points and saved room for these wonders BUT the ancient wonders rewards are rubbish.

The cost is too high and the rewards are very weak. Smoke another one and redo this disastrous ancient wonder-less junk

 

[DeletedUser]

I don't get the motivation behind having people spend KP on one another build these things, since they seem to already use up a massive amount of KP. It does not seem thought through at all beyond an attempt to get people to spend ludicrous amounts of real money on buying them. Also introducing something like that late on the game is dodgy. Wait until people have invested masses of time/money before introducing something that radically changes the game atmosphere.

Why not just let people's non-boosted relics and/or possibly other looted "currencies" count to their guild as a whole (like social points acquired by visiting others and trading, as opposed to knowledge points)? Note I do not suggest KP's. One can purchase KP's with real money etc, and using them would encourage a dubious game environment where people would coerce one another into spending real money or thwarting their progression by spending their boosted goods. Social points would create the spirit of helping one another without the psychological stress involved in allowing people to exploit others, causing people to feel exploited and creating a gambling aspect. OFC there would still be the pressure to help others, but that isn't negative in social games. I get why "free" games have to generate an income, but premium features also do the trick without negative consequences. It would be unfortunate to see this game moving in that direction. I also don't believe implementing things that take a ludicrous amount of time to achieve will encourage people to spend more time on / remain in a game which is already incredibly slow (unless you exploit the quest system, apparently). Giving people more things to actually do besides watching paint dry would make more sense.

 

[DeletedUser]

I don't get the motivation behind having people spend KP on one another build these things,

The top few contributors, per level, get Rune Shards and a few Knowledge Points as well. The only other means of obtaining Rune Shards (and you'll need a couple dozen of them to fill all 9 slots) is to conquer sectors AFTER you have unlocked the Ancient Wonder technology.

Why not just let people's non-boosted relics ....

You'll need all three types of relics, both unboosted and boosted, each time you level your Ancient Wonder. The Chapter 4 Ancient Wonders need Elixir, Magic Dust, & Gems, and I suspect that the Chapter 6 Ancient Wonders will need Marble, Steel, & Planks.

 

[DeletedUser]

@Katwijk I know all this. I do not consider it good game design unless you think good game design involves finding ways to get people to blow vast amounts of money and make other players feel they also ought to be doing this. Since you can buy KP and the price is incremental, that's obviously the sentiment behind it. If this was really about helping one another it would be designed differently, as for example, in my suggestions.

 

[DeletedUser358]

Don't forget that all of these F2P/P2W games have money traps.
It's part of the game design, in EVERY one of these games, to generate $ for the publishers/devs.
The second part is psychology. Player A sees Player B spending $ to gain a bonus. Player A is very competitive, so he spends more to get a one up on Player B. And the cycle continues.

The trick to all these games for the pubs/devs is to create a game/spending balance here, so that player retention stays within set parameters while generating @ through money traps and inducing new players into the game

 

[DeletedUser]

Going with my past experience with Innogames in FoE - I doubt that each player will receive the appropriate amount of rune shards in respect to the number of provinces they have already completed. That sounds like far too much work, so instead they might just give away a set number of shards for free to all players once the update gets implemented. (It's just my guess - don't quote me on it!)

On a side note: You can only have the chance to gain rune shards from other players if you "invest in Ancient Wonders belonging to your Fellows or your discovered neighbors." (According to the wiki linked in the OP.) That means that if you have dozens upon dozens of discovered neighbours, you've got a huge advantage in competing for rune shards once players start building an Ancient Wonder. Knowing how quickly that happened in FoE thanks to the many players who spend diamonds on the game - it's not really anything I'd be too concerned about in regards to pay-to-win. Call it a 'trickle down effect' if you like.

In addition: those players with fewer completed provinces (newer players so to speak) will have an advantage in gaining rune shards through the completion of provinces, that is correct. However, considering the above, experienced players will be able to profit through investing - which the newer players won't be able to do to the same extent.

Bottom line: I don't really see any issue here. We all signed on to play a game for which many of it's contents are still being released (similar to FoE's release years back). So once this update gets implemented, both new and old players have rather balanced opportunities in competing for and building Ancient Wonders.

As for the rewards: I have no idea how useful they are. That's up for everyone to decide for themselves. They look nice though. That's always a bonus!

Cheers.

 

[DeletedUser227]

@Katwijk I know all this. I do not consider it good game design unless you think good game design involves finding ways to get people to blow vast amounts of money and make other players feel they also ought to be doing this. Since you can buy KP and the price is incremental, that's obviously the sentiment behind it. If this was really about helping one another it would be designed differently, as for example, in my suggestions.

Players can buy rune shards for diamonds and wouldnt actually gain more KPs by dumping them into other peoples wonders. Your complaints are baseless and without merit. If you don't like a city simulator with P2W elements, you're playing the wrong game.

 

[DeletedUser]

Players can buy rune shards for diamonds and wouldnt actually gain more KPs by dumping them into other peoples wonders. Your complaints are baseless and without merit. If you don't like a city simulator with P2W elements, you're playing the wrong game.

Where did I say I expect free games not to have p2w elements? I'm fully aware that the incentive to pay is low to non existent if there are no benefits involved in doing so. The issues I was attempting to bring up were: people spending money on other people and said other people feeling or being pressured to return the favour; people making arrangements where the other party does not reciprocate, or with people feeling hard done by if they spend money on someone else's wonder and don't end up "winning", for instance. One can have p2w elements without adding features that cause unnecessary social complications. However, if people can buy the things for themselves and it's been done in another game and worked, I'm perfectly happy to accept being wrong. ;P

 

[DeletedUser66]

I see the wiki has been updated, the stats for the ancient wonders have been posted. I was very much excited about this update, I couldn't wait to get my first wonder up - but that was soon changed.

Let's have a look at the Martial Monastery. At level 10 it provides 10% to troops HP and 2900 culture. It occupies 25 blocks (5x5).
I'm already in the Dwarf era, but if I wasn't - by the time I've unlocked the tech and managed to get this building to level 10 I would have already advanced into the Dwarf era. According to a post on the beta forum, a level 10 building will cost you 3300 odd KP and 59 relics (Some boosted relics too). The KP total seems right and reflects something in that vicinity due to the screenshots posted on the wiki. Relics, that total seems oddly high.

Surely this cannot be right? There is a Dwarf culture building, Temple of holy fire that gives 2400 culture, also occupying 25 blocks (5x5). This building costs 734k coins and 105k supplies. It'll take me 16 hours to build.

Summary:

TOHF versus MM

65 versus 3600 KP
2400 versus 2900 culture
0% versus 10% HP
o versus 59 relics
16 hours versus 2 months?
734k versus 0 coins?
105k versus 0 supplies?

500 culture and 10% HP is not worth 3600KP and 59 relics. I will also lose goods every 3 hours because my percentage will be reduced.

Is my math correct or am I missing something completely? Please tell me I'm wrong...

 

[Deleted User - 50840]

@ Da Twista
You are not wrong... I wish you were Currently the two known AW's are not worth the HUGE time and valuable relics that they require.

"...whereas the Dwarven Wonders will grant you unit auto-production and additional training size."

The above is from the AW's announcement made by Amy, but there is no further info on the Dwarven AW's. Not sure if they will be released with the others or later. They may be more worthwile than the current human and elven AW's.

 

[DeletedUser358]

While I agree with Da Twista, you also have to look ahead.
If the Ancient Wonders are anything like the FoE GBs (and they probably are) you will (eventually) be able to go above level 10.
Now you have to figure that once your city is "complete", ie, no more room to expand/build more, and you've finished the knowledge tree, you really wont have anything else to spend your extra KPs on, so that culture and troop health from the MM will eventually be worth it, since KPs will be worth nothing come the end of the tree.

I completely agree that the current bonuses are weak as $h!t, but thinking of the eventuality, by level 15/20/30/50/whatever, these Ancient Wonders might be worth it.

Lets hope the devs release better wonders with bonuses that are actually worthwhile, and hope that these first two AWs released here are FoEs versions of the (useless) Colosseum and Notre Dame

Cheers,
NecroDee..

 

[DeletedUser]

While I agree with Da Twista, you also have to look ahead.
If the Ancient Wonders are anything like the FoE GBs (and they probably are) you will (eventually) be able to go above level 10.
...

and if they are anything like the GBs in FoE, can we expect them to be nerfed too further down the line?
In the interests of balancing the game, of course

 

[DeletedUser72]

When I first started this game I tried (and failed) at having a little bit of everything. Military and production. About midway through the purple section of the tech tree I realized that my town was not sustainable doing it all. So I quit for a few days. But I had a lot of fun on this game so I had to rethink my town. The only way I could find that you could enjoy all the aspects of the game was to sell off all but the bonus productions and about double my workshops. Thankfully the fellowship update came and trading became easier.

Since then, I have never been short of gold or supplies. I have a great group of neighbors and fellowship members that need what goods I have and vice versa. I train troops during the week and spend the weekend in battle. I spend a good deal of time (and some money) on Elvenar. I want to enjoy all this game has to offer. But I am stumped on how to make this work with the ancient blunder (not a typo). The only ideas I have had so far is to sell off the bonus productions and go all military. This would mean I would double my workshops (again) to fee my large army. I would have to rely on the trader wholesaler for any goods that I might need. But then, I would not be playing the game to its fullest. Idea Two is to ignore the update as a hole and keep playing as I am. Again, not playing game to its fullest (I think Human Bell Tower is rad looking). Idea Three is to put my fingers in my ears and go " la la la la la la la la" until someone thinks of a way to make it work.

Anyone have any better ideas?

 

[Deleted User - 50840]

Anyone have any better ideas?

Yes... lol. Wait for the dwarven AW's. They at least have a little more potential. The mountain halls sounds very good

Dwarven AW's
Mountain halls = Extra population + relic boost
Bulwark = Additional training size + x free units per 3 hours

 

[DeletedUser72]

Yes... lol. Wait for the dwarven AW's. They at least have a little more potential. The mountain halls sounds very good

Dwarven AW's
Mountain halls = Extra population + relic boost
Bulwark = Additional training size + x free units per 3 hours

That is unless you have to have 1st AW before you can have 2nd. Wouldn't that be lovely.

 

[Deleted User - 50840]

have to have 1st AW before you can have 2nd

That thought makes me shudder!