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Ancient Wonders in Elvenar chapter

Jaxom

Alchemist
I am working on this chapter but still have a long way to go. I am curious about how useful the new wonders might be.

Will I really be able to remove residences after I build the Thermal Springs?

Will the Vortex let me make better use of Portal Profit spells? Does its effect on Sentient goods only apply to the tiny 'Base Production'?
I could use some information from players who have built these.
Thanks
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
For me put it this way: I've completed the chapter, unlocked both Wonders, but have not placed either. First chapter in a long time that's the case.

Vortex: Yes you'd get more from Portal Profits if you find them in short supply, but rather pointless with no more chapters out for a while and a long gap between chapters. At least Blooming Trader Guild has lots of chapters after it, but even that one isn't that worthwhile to me. All good bonuses (except for MM spell related) always boost Base Production so yes the "real" boost is rather small.

Thermal Springs will work great for you if you have lots of Residences or Magic Residences but is terrible if you have an efficient city without many Residences and/or with many event buildings since it doesn't boost those. If you get your population from event buildings you'd be much better off levelling up Golden Abyss if you haven't yet, or maybe even Mountain Halls. Much cheaper and better value to level up Golden Abyss too.

Finally the rewards for levelling up Elvenar buildings have been nerfed compared to every chapter previous. They don't follow the same pattern at all.

Golden Abyss/Mountain Halls give 2.25% of total working population every five upgrades (even event buildings based), while Thermal Springs gives 2.5% of residence only populations every give upgrades past the initial two levels. That extra 0.25% is not worth it for me if you ever get event buildings for population.
 

Paladestar

Enchanter
They're both fairly weak wonders. Like randblade, I've unlocked them already, but have no plans to place them right now.
 

DeletedUser1874

Guest
Worthless.
A level 30 TS would give me ~ 30k population and a useless culture overkill. A level 30 GA gives me ~76k population in much less space and a nice 3h gold pickup, a level 30 MH would also give me ~76k population and a nice resource boost.
As to the Vortex, it'll only boost only capped guest resource (as opposed to the BTG which affects every guest resource), and provide a redundant bonus to sentient goods (for which I'd take the TW, Simia, or ETC instead). That's without considering that most players I know are sitting on a huge pile of PPs even after chapter XV.
The TS could perhaps be useful to people with a massive amount of residences, but even still I doubt it'd manage to beat the GA and MH with all things taken into consideration (above all the space it'd take to make the TS provide population on par with the GA/MH).
 

Deleted User - 1759805

Guest
The TS could perhaps be useful to people with a massive amount of residences, but even still I doubt it'd manage to beat the GA and MH with all things taken into consideration (above all the space it'd take to make the TS provide population on par with the GA/MH).
Why do you think it needs to beat GA and/or MH? That would be a reasonable argument if you could build multiple GAs or MHs. But you can't. There are plenty of people with high level / maxed out GAs. Incidentally, they're also likely to be in the end game, where they can get this new AW. This is for them.
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
Why do you think it needs to beat GA and/or MH? That would be a reasonable argument if you could build multiple GAs or MHs. But you can't. There are plenty of people with high level / maxed out GAs. Incidentally, they're also likely to be in the end game, where they can get this new AW. This is for them.
I think even most endgame players haven't maxed out all their AWs. I've only maxed out one personally and that was because I prioritised it over levelling others.

How many people have reached endgame and maxed out both GA/MH but haven't gotten other population efficient buildings like Venars? I suspect that number is very slim.

If this is worth it to you good luck to you. But I suspect the people involved in the conversation so far despite finishing or nearly finishing the chapter primarily haven't maxed out GA. If I advise you're better off maxing out GA but you know that you've already done that then the advice clearly didn't apply to you.
 

DeletedUser1874

Guest
Why do you think it needs to beat GA and/or MH? That would be a reasonable argument if you could build multiple GAs or MHs. But you can't. There are plenty of people with high level / maxed out GAs. Incidentally, they're also likely to be in the end game, where they can get this new AW. This is for them.
Efficiency. It takes a huge number of KPs to raise both the GA and MH to level 30, I myself am still working on level 27 MH and the GA is the only AW I maxed. Then there are other AWs that take priority over a measly 30k @ level 30 (calculated with all Magic Residences) for an equally huge amount of KPs, and why would one invest that many KPs into something that requires a huge amount of space in order to be effective when you can save a lot of space by using event buildings and a reduced number of residences, allowing for a lot more Manus/Workshops/Armories? Nah, no matter how I look at it, I can't see the TS being worth building in its current state. Unless maybe, with strong emphasis on "maybe", for those with push accounts. But I don't use push accounts, so yeah.
 

Deleted User - 1759805

Guest
Upgrading GA from L29 to L30 gives you 0.375% increase to working pop, and costs 840KP. TSoY L1 immediately gives 5% of residences pop, L2 gives +1%, and every upgrade after that gives 0.5%. L1 costs no KP, L2 and L3 cost 350 and 400 KP each. Sure, it takes some extra space, but even L1 quite possibly already saves space if you have enough residences. So you don't need maxed GA for TSoY to be more incrementally efficient than GA. High level AW upgrades are expensive.

Obviously, if one runs event buildings for most/all of their pop, then TSoY is useless to them. But if you look at top cities, more often than not you will find that they run a ton of residences (usually magic ones). They also tend to have high levels of AWs. It's a great wonder for them. So worthless? I think not. Just because you have no use for it (even if true) doesn't mean it is not a good AW for other players.
 

DeletedUser1874

Guest
Upgrading GA from L29 to L30 gives you 0.375% increase to working pop, and costs 840KP. TSoY L1 immediately gives 5% of residences pop, L2 gives +1%, and every upgrade after that gives 0.5%. L1 costs no KP, L2 and L3 cost 350 and 400 KP each. Sure, it takes some extra space, but even L1 quite possibly already saves space if you have enough residences. So you don't need maxed GA for TSoY to be more incrementally efficient than GA. High level AW upgrades are expensive.

Obviously, if one runs event buildings for most/all of their pop, then TSoY is useless to them. But if you look at top cities, more often than not you will find that they run a ton of residences (usually magic ones). They also tend to have high levels of AWs. It's a great wonder for them. So worthless? I think not. Just because you have no use for it (even if true) doesn't mean it is not a good AW for other players.
If by "top" cities you're referring to rank, our POVs vastly differ, because rank doesn't necessarily translate into efficiency. The reason for this are many, but mostly it's because MRs give a ton of ranking points whereas pop/cult hybrid and event buildings don't. I also don't quite get your comparison. Upgrading TS to level 1 immediately gives 5% of residence, sure, and also takes up 7*3 tiles, compared to the GA's 3*3. And TS 29 to 30 costs 1750 KPs. So unless you go around comparing apples and oranges and disregarding the fact that space is a rare commodity, yes, they are worthless to me.

But, more importantly, I even specified my particular playstyle and said that they might be of use to players with a different playstyle in my first post, so the underlined part of your reply is not only utterly redundant, but suggests you're probably having a bad day. I suggest taking a deep breath, chilling, and reading people's posts in full.
 

Deleted User - 1759805

Guest
If by "top" cities you're referring to rank, our POVs vastly differ, because rank doesn't necessarily translate into efficiency. The reason for this are many, but mostly it's because MRs give a ton of ranking points whereas pop/cult hybrid and event buildings don't. I also don't quite get your comparison. Upgrading TS to level 1 immediately gives 5% of residence, sure, and also takes up 7*3 tiles, compared to the GA's 3*3. And TS 29 to 30 costs 1750 KPs. So unless you go around comparing apples and oranges and disregarding the fact that space is a rare commodity, yes, they are worthless to me.
OK, let's even use your numbers. Given 75K of extra pop for L30 GA, you have about 500K total pop. Let's assume it is maxed out, but you really want to put another maxed out manufactory, so need to find about 10K worth of pop. So, what are your options? Upgrade GA? Wait, you can't do it, you're already at L30. OK, so upgrade MH then? Well, you're at L27, so you can only upgrade 3 more levels. This won't be nearly enough (only about half of what is needed), not to mention princely cost of almost 4K in KP. So, you need to put up some additional pop buildings. Magic Residences are pretty much as good as they get pop-wise, so let's say you put up one. By itself it won't be enough, but with maxed out GA and MH it is just slightly above 10K worth of pop, and equivalent incremental pop density of about 700 per tile.

Well, it is now trivial to back out residence pop needed to cover that with TSoY right at L1. So basically if you have 300K worth of residence pop (certainly possible given 500K total), L1 TSoY (costs no KP) will bring 15K worth of pop (or more than 700 per tile), beating incremental magic residence efficiency right off the bat. That's just for L1 - and it gets better when you deploy some KPs there, so you certainly don't need that much pop for it to make sense.

Worthless.
Nah, no matter how I look at it, I can't see the TS being worth building in its current state. Unless maybe, with strong emphasis on "maybe", for those with push accounts.
Looks like generalization to me. Readers can make their own conclusions.
 

Jaxom

Alchemist
I thank everyone for their input and comments.
I am no where near maxing out any AW. Really do need to put some KPs into my GAs.
That said it does look like even a Level 1 TSoY would let me eliminate 1 or 2 residences, with a net saving of some space. I sure don't need the coins that I would be losing. Most of them go to KPs.

The vortex looks much less appealing since I too have a big surplus of PP spells, even though I will get through Chapter 15 using a bunch. They just don't stop coming!
Maybe it would be viable if Chapter 16 arrives and it looks like they expect you to have a vortex in order to complete it in a reasonable amount of time. It has been frustrating to waste so many race goods due to portal overflow when using PPs. But I have so many of them it really doesn't matter!

Thanks again.
 

Errandil

Conjurer
I really don't see any use of Vortex for an active player unless they change the settlement mechanics so that buildings produce some % of max storage capacity and at the same time researches require some middle goods you can't get with PPs. I'm nearing the end of the ch15 and have about 2500% of PPs with another event coming that would give more of them.
 

alsael

Enchanter
Do not dismiss it so fast.Vortex also gives sentient boost,and upgraded with timewarp(also upgraded),is a nice boost :)
 

DeletedUser1874

Guest
OK, let's even use your numbers.

- snip-

Looks like generalization to me. Readers can make their own conclusions.
I have already used my numbers and drawn my own conclusions, which remain the same. To me, that wonder is completely and utterly useless. To others, that might not be the case. I had already stated as much in my original post, a fact that you kept and keep on ignoring, deciding instead to cherry-pick single statements, because if you'd quote the post as a whole, it'd show when I said that I'm talking about my own playstyle and that some other players might have a use for it. So instead you went for the eristic approach - congratulations. Readers will most certainly draw their own conclusions.
 
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m4rt1n

Adept
I built the Thermal Springs of Youth, first level in my city adds about 1 house of pop, but the upgrades require insane amounts of seeds so it's just sat full at level 2 currently.

I have not yet built the Vortex of Storage but am thinking of placing it prior to ch16 release, whenever that may be.
 

Jaxom

Alchemist
Good to know about the need for seeds to upgrade. 200K to raise it 4 levels plus 1500K mana. That adds 50% to the population bonus.
Perhaps between chapters a player could afford to dump seeds into it. Not much else to do with them!
But if I only save 1 residence by doing this ...
 

m4rt1n

Adept
Good to know about the need for seeds to upgrade. 200K to raise it 4 levels plus 1500K mana. That adds 50% to the population bonus.
Perhaps between chapters a player could afford to dump seeds into it. Not much else to do with them!
But if I only save 1 residence by doing this ...

Thermal Springs of Youth I am referring to, 5% for building it then 1% a level. Unsure where you get the 50% from.

Upgrade it and it will save space if you have a mostly residence based population but it will take time. Also culture from the building and another AW to add to the list of levels for seeds bonus from the Trader every 3 hours. :)
 

Paladestar

Enchanter
I've looked at these AWs again recently, after I already hit my targets with the ones I was previously focusing on.

They've broken the established 'rules' and patterns with these two new AWs:
  • Every other AW in the game starts off giving 15% of its maximum benefit when placed at level 1, these new ones give more up front, but scale far slower with each new level. For all older AWs, at level 5 you have 25% of max. benefit, 13 = 50%, 21 = 75%, 30 = 100% - The two new AWs do not follow this established pattern.
  • The sum of the KP in the reward chests for every other AW in the game add up to about 20% of the KP required per level, these new AWs give a lot less KP back to the people who donate.
  • The KP needed for each level of these new AWs scales linearly (+50 per level over the level before).
  • The KP needed per level for all previous AWs correlates to their size, the more squares an AW needs, the more KP it needs. Not so with these new AWs. They both need the same KP, despite being different sizes. The amount of KP they both need is much more than even the biggest previous AWs.
  • A rune circle level upgrade for all old AWs gives double the benefit of a KP level upgrade. This is not true for 3 of the 4 benefits givens by the two new AWs.
  • The benefits are weaker than comparable AWs at maximum level, e.g. a Mountain Halls increases goods production by 160% at level 30, a Timewarp increases sentient goods production by 160% at level 30, the Vortex only increases sentient goods production by 80% at level 30 - half of the previously established 'fair' amount.
If you consider all of this together, I feel we're getting a bit cheated with these two new AWs. They may still be better than some of the old AWs in the game, but that's because some of the older ones are soooo bad, not because these new ones are good. They're more like for when you reach a stage in the game where there's no better alternative, so you kinda have to build them even though you know that you're being short-changed.
 
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