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About push accounts...

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Silmaril

Community Manager
Elvenar Team
A site like that would mean that any person who owned the site would be also legally responsible for any breaches of GDPR and International Privacy Laws if any player names were indeed shared by anyone but the player themselves and accusations made.
Defamation of character lawsuits are a very common thing these days.
It could also be seen that any creating this were doing so as also a direct breach of Elvenar's Game Rules and InnoGames Terms and Conditions of which there could also be legal consequences.
Which is why this is all done behind the closed doors of Support as we will never discuss another players actions with another player. Hence many feel we stand behind generic replies at times in Support, when we are being asked to discuss someone else with them, as this is a direct breach of GDPR, we will never be able to discuss in this way.
 

Pauly7

Magus
A site like that would mean that any person who owned the site would be also legally responsible for any breaches of GDPR and International Privacy Laws if any player names were indeed shared by anyone but the player themselves and accusations made.
Defamation of character lawsuits are a very common thing these days.
It could also be seen that any creating this were doing so as also a direct breach of Elvenar's Game Rules and InnoGames Terms and Conditions of which there could also be legal consequences.
Which is why this is all done behind the closed doors of Support as we will never discuss another players actions with another player. Hence many feel we stand behind generic replies at times in Support, when we are being asked to discuss someone else with them, as this is a direct breach of GDPR, we will never be able to discuss in this way.
I think that kind of idea is really just a hypothetical one. Not something that would ever happen.
 

Alcaro

Necromancer
I still don't understand how I breach GDPR and International Privacy Laws when I say player Snowballfromthemountains is doing this or that. Who the hell is Snowballfromthemountains anyway? We know a username and that's it. Under that username can be a person from Unganda or Romania or UK or you name it. I am from Romania. And???? This country has 20 millions inhabitants. The staff might know where I'm residing by checking my IP. It will come in an area where are about 700000 residents. Soooo???? We do not know anything about the real person that is using a Nickname. Someone pls enlighten me!
 

BlueBlou

Illusionist
I am going to play devil’s advocate. Honestly, anyone able to be top of the tourney leaderboard earns far more kp than could be gained from a 100 other towns. For any city to make a significant kp contribution to another city, that city will have to be played full time, so not really an option. A 100 towns will barely be able to contribute 10 kp per day each, again time being a problem to run around all of them to collect and donate it, making it a non-sustainable practice.

All for what purpose? To upgrade AWs. Upgraded AW levels lead to more expensive tourneys and spires. So whoever does do this, is unlikely to have the skills to be the top player and will be shooting themselves in the foot in the process.

My conclusion, if you have the skills and the know how on how to play this game, you don’t need to worry about anybody else.
 

DeletedUser501

Enchanter
I still don't understand how I breach GDPR and International Privacy Laws when I say player Snowballfromthemountains is doing this or that. Who the hell is Snowballfromthemountains anyway? We know a username and that's it. Under that username can be a person from Unganda or Romania or UK or you name it. I am from Romania. And???? This country has 20 millions inhabitants. The staff might know where I'm residing by checking my IP. It will come in an area where are about 700000 residents. Soooo???? We do not know anything about the real person that is using a Nickname. Someone pls enlighten me!
And in the remote case they have the motivation to track you with your IP, well VPN and proxy server do exist.
 

DeletedUser501

Enchanter
I am going to play devil’s advocate. Honestly, anyone able to be top of the tourney leaderboard earns far more kp than could be gained from a 100 other towns. For any city to make a significant kp contribution to another city, that city will have to be played full time, so not really an option. A 100 towns will barely be able to contribute 10 kp per day each, again time being a problem to run around all of them to collect and donate it, making it a non-sustainable practice.
Push accounts don´t work like that, they don´t fill the main user AWs with the daily KP generated every hour, they work as KP hunt accounts, in this manner these generate hundreds of KP every week, and in some point (without none, neither their fellows nor any other player notice) and time, they spend all that KP in the AW of the main user. That´s how push accounts works, and that´s blatant cheating from this low moral players.
 

Alcaro

Necromancer
And in the remote case they have the motivation to track you with your IP, well VPN and proxy server do exist.
yes, but that is only for Inno but we are talking about the situation mentioned by moderators that isn't allowed for us to mention any username in forum. The same was when someone said that as AM would like to know when were active for the last time the fellows from her FS and was invoked this privacy nonsense. How am I intruding someone's privacy when I don't even know who's behind a nickname!?!?!?!?
 
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Just looking at the top ranking accounts:

Is it feasible that players have maxed out multiple AWs in the lifetime of Elvenar without either push accounts or spending trainloads of real money ?

Inno will know what money has been spent.

Either be a little more proactive in defence of published rules or don't have the rule - Inno's choice.
 

Herodite

Forum mod extraordinaire
Elvenar Team
Greetings @Alcaro we're back to the sticky wicket that is GDPR again... even your lovely Usernames are protected under GDPR:

"The username is personal data if it distinguishes one individual from another regardless of whether it is possible to link the 'online' identity with a 'real world' named individual.."

I know it can be frustrating and the temptation is always there to name and shame but I strongly urge you not to do this, especially on Social Media/Third Party Sites. Even if they were guilty of operating Push Accounts, by calling their Username out you would be contravening GDPR and Terms and Conditions, and it would be you that gets the Ban. We do not want to have to do that.

Please continue to notify Support of any suspicions you may have and please understand that these are never just quick wins. Thorough investigations need to be carried out and this can take weeks depending on the extent of the situation. But we do take them seriously, and we do act accordingly.

Kind Regards

Herodite.
 

Pauly7

Magus
Is it feasible that players have maxed out multiple AWs in the lifetime of Elvenar without either push accounts or spending trainloads of real money ?
Yes definitely, but it depends on their playstyle and what they get from the game. Those that have really pushed tournaments to the limit consistently for several years may have put a lot of KP into AWs. It looks more suspicious to me when I see every single AW at level 35 in someone's city, but @CrazyWizard will tell you how much is possible. For me I have about 5 AWs over level 30, but I don't have any intention of getting them to 35.
 

DeletedUser501

Enchanter
@Alcaro Do believe what Herodite says, once I wrote to some low cheater out by PM, and even published him in Elvenar Facebook group, he cried to support for this, and they just banned me for a day and blocked my facebook account from the Elvenar Facebook Group, and the cheater... well he keep doing the same with his 4 push accounts, in every other dimension of real world authorities would have penalized the cheater NOT the one who target him for doing that. So... looks like they would "investigate" until the Spire of eternity be a real Eternal and never ending Spire.
 

Alcaro

Necromancer
@Herodite - I was never tempted to name and shame anyone because I do not understand the urge behind push accounts and the need to be in the top at any costs. I don't walk in anyone's shoes to make such judgments. Most of the time I feel sorry for them.
I just don't understand this ridiculous data protection which IMHO it doesn't protect anything since is nothing to protect there beside a username.

@DunkelSaturn - unfortunately, also in real life too many times the perpetrators are protected while those trying to do the right thing are punished, so, it doesn't come as a surprise for me. That's why too many people prefer to look on the other side than trying to do the right thing.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
Yes definitely, but it depends on their playstyle and what they get from the game. Those that have really pushed tournaments to the limit consistently for several years may have put a lot of KP into AWs. It looks more suspicious to me when I see every single AW at level 35 in someone's city, but @CrazyWizard will tell you how much is possible. For me I have about 5 AWs over level 30, but I don't have any intention of getting them to 35.
All max is possible with enough time and effort, but expect to spend 10ths of hours each week searching for wonders for profit for like at minimum 2-3 years combined with good tourney scores.

Pushing is just the easy, lame way out.
They main question should be do you want all wonders on 35 with the new rules?
 

Laurelin

Sorcerer
A site like that would mean that any person who owned the site would be also legally responsible for any breaches of GDPR and International Privacy Laws if any player names were indeed shared by anyone but the player themselves and accusations made. [...] Which is why this is all done behind the closed doors of Support as we will never discuss another players actions with another player.
[...] even your lovely Usernames are protected under GDPR [...]
Well, this is becoming quite interesting, although just for the record, I am non-competitive by nature and thus have no personal interest in the operation of 'push accounts' in any online game - and on an additional and more practical note, I've yet to encounter any online game where nobody (especially competitive players) operates such 'alt' accounts, assuming that the game's structure allows it.

My interest lies in the way in which the GDPR is (it seems) being interpreted here. There's a tendency to assume (a) that the GDPR is highly innovative, when in fact it differs only slightly from many pre-existing Data Protection laws, and (b) that the GDPR in some way negates normal freedom of expression by individuals of either facts or opinions about any other individual whose personal data is covered by the regulations, which is also not true. And perhaps most importantly, the GDPR does not provide an excuse for anyone to take (or fail to take) any action so as to contravene other legal principles, such as Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Information (where such legislation exists), and/or internationally agreed Human Rights laws - whether in the public domain or 'behind closed doors', since the law applies everywhere in equal measure (well, outside of very unusual examples, e.g. court cases or documents maintained in camera due to National Sercurity concerns, or in other specific [and very rare] legal situations to which the GDPR may apply).

The main reasons (this is an over-simplification, but I doubt that anyone wants to read a [more?] huge essay on the subject!) why the GDPR legislation was created were because the EU was attempting (amongst other, lesser aims) to provide data protection to EU citizens whose nation states had inadequate legislation in place; to harmonise the differing Data Protection laws which already applied within its member states (and often still do apply; EU law doesn't necessarily override national law in any given situation); and to address the concerns of many people regarding their data privacy due to the rise of the Internet in general and Anti-Social Meeja in particular, with the consequent power of governments and corporations to access the personal data of many individuals without, in some cases, being legally obliged to protect said data from misuse - which does not, of course, mean 'any usage whatsoever'. There is also a distinction to be made between what actually constitutes 'personal' as opposed to 'public' data; it is not the case that all known facts about all persons are even considered to be 'personal'.

What the GDPR does (another simplification, but it's sufficient for the purposes of general discussion) is to provide individuals with the following rights with respect to personal data held by corporations, governments, and any other entities which the legislation encompasses:
"... the right to be informed [of what data is being held], the right of access, the right to rectification, the right to erasure, the right to restrict processing, the right to data portability, the right to object and also rights around automated decision making and profiling."
~ Source : https://www.wired.co.uk/article/what-is-gdpr-uk-eu-legislation-compliance-summary-fines-2018

What the GDPR does not do, and nor should it, of course, is to prevent anyone from making legitimate statements about the real-world public sphere (or private sphere, in cases which affect others' legal rights) actions, behaviours, opinions, etc. of any individual, provided that such statements are demonstrably true. (NB: most countries' laws on libel and slander pre-GDPR were already, and typically still remain, quite adequate when it comes to any instances of genuine defamation - which is not the stating of true facts about any person, but rather the originating or repeating of falsehoods which may materially damage that person's reputation [simply being 'upsetting' or 'offensive' is usually not adequate grounds for defamation to be proven; real, quantifiable loss must result for defamation to have occurred]. In fact, defamation really has little to do with Data Protection per se).

The general impression I gather from the discussion here is that the GDPR is argued to be in some way capable of preventing anyone from stating true facts about anyone else - whether that person is referenced by their real name or by any assumed name (Internet username, nickname, etc.) which they might adopt. This is not true, and if it were, then the GDPR would be the gravest breach of fundamental Freedom of Speech which any legislation had ever attempted. I know of no Free World legislation which considers any person's name (again, including any publicly used assumed nickname such as an Internet ID) to be, of itself, 'private data' which no other person may publish or discuss, and no person's genuine, real-world actions, likewise, are considered to be 'private data' which other people are not allowed to know or enquire about.

Imagine a world where that were the case - nobody would be allowed to say, write, or do anything at all relating to actions taken or statements made on the Internet by any person using an assumed ID, for a start, without that person's express permission. Not only would this be impossible to enforce, but it would be entirely contrary - as already mentioned - to the principles of Free Speech, as well as signalling the end of Freedom of the Press... and there would be so many more highly undesirable effects as well, of course. By way of extreme example, this would prohibit anyone from being prosecuted for any crime committed under an assumed Internet ID without their own permission first being sought not only to associate that username with their real name and person, but also to attribute to that person/ID any aspect of the crime concerned - which is evidently ridiculous.

If any individual does not wish any other individual to know their name and/or their Internet ID, and/or to associate their public actions with their real and/or assumed name(s) - and general legal principles dictate that 'public actions' would include observable behaviour such as operating 'push accounts' in a publicly available online game under an[other] assumed Internet name - then their sole recourse would be to apply for a court injunction protecting those pieces of information, although this would probably be very hard to achieve, since such data is usually regarded, by most Free World law courts, as being in the public domain (and, again, so it should be, if the public is to be protected from malfeasance by, amongst others, elected officials, corporate bodies, and indeed other individuals, too). This does not, of course, affect the legal obligations placed upon InnoGames or any other data-holding entity (by GDPR or other legislation) to protect the private data of individuals from being illegally accessed or disseminated, but nor does GDPR indicate that any entity which holds personal data on any given individual has the right to restrict the legitimate usage by other private individuals of that individual's public-sphere data - which, again, includes any assumed Internet ID.

Defamation of character lawsuits are a very common thing these days.
InnoGames may set such rules as it pleases concerning its proprietary webspace. However, such rules cannot affect other locales, so I cannot see how any of rights granted by the GDPR regarding how a person's data is handled would prevent any other person (website, newspaper, etc.) from publishing elsewhere the real names, the assumed Internet IDs, and/or the real and genuine observed public sphere actions (including any public behaviour within any online video game, or indeed anywhere else) of any given individual, including their operation of 'push accounts'. It is, after all, not possible to 'defame' anyone by observing or publishing their real actions - and there is quite some leeway when it comes to merely 'alleged' actions, too, which is why the Press always uses that very word ('alleged') when describing the charges laid against anyone who is accused of any given crime, before their trial has taken place and their innocence or guilt of said crime is thereby established.

It could also be seen that any creating this were doing so as also a direct breach of Elvenar's Game Rules and InnoGames Terms and Conditions of which there could also be legal consequences.
If I am understanding this statement correctly (?), the concept that anything contained within Elvenar's Game Rules and/or InnoGames' Terms and Conditions would be capable of binding, dictating, or otherwise affecting any individual's behaviour beyond their usage of InnoGames properties (e.g. software, webspaces, etc.), such as on external, non-InnoGames websites, for example, then I cannot imagine which part of the GDPR InnoGames may interpret as giving them control of their players' actions which are outside of InnoGames' properties, and I can only assume that if they really do believe that they have such powers (which I doubt), they would find themselves disappointed if they were to test this belief in almost any court of law.
 

Laurelin

Sorcerer
@DunkelSaturn :
I'm hardly ever in-game these days! I'm out of time right now - spent it all on the above long post! - but a PM will follow... :)
 

Pauly7

Magus
Very interesting @Laurelin and it shows how a term like GDPR can be thrown around with reckless abandon in these current times. Whenever you refer to InnoGames' interpretation of GDPR, I don't believe they've interpreted it at all in situations like these. They've just used the word (or the acronym) as a weapon.
 

Stucon

Illusionist
I agree @Laurelin.
I was thinking along similar lines but couldn't be bothered to write the essay (lol).
If we follow the logic that the moderators are using I am outside GDPR by posting this reply with your name attached.
 
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