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4 STAR UNITS...

DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
It is truth that we´re gonna have ours and enemy 4 star units?

Cause if this is truth, tournament will be even harder of what is now... I can´t imagine players from 3 to 15 chapter having to deal with 4 star OP enemy units, it would be a BIG nerf to tournament if this happens.
I also heard that the very first 2 units (of 15 different that exists in the game) you´ll receive would be in the next 18º chapter, like FOR REAL??
 
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Gargon667

Mentor
does anyone know what 4 star even means? I agree there is a chance it´ll be a nerf, but there is also a chance it doesn´t do much at all...

I can´t say that difficulty is a problem in the new tourneys anyway, the problem is the stop to progress in my opinion, if they´d work on that they can make the tourneys more difficult and I´d be very happy.
 

DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
does anyone know what 4 star even means?
What do you mean?

When you reach XVI chapter all your units are 3 star ones, Inno would (according to some people) put new 4 star units together with the new 18º chapter.

I agree there is a chance it´ll be a nerf, but there is also a chance it doesn´t do much at all...

I can´t say that difficulty is a problem in the new tourneys anyway, the problem is the stop to progress in my opinion, if they´d work on that they can make the tourneys more difficult and I´d be very happy.
Exactly for that same reason and another aspects of this new insane tourney system is why putting 4 stars enemy units would make things even harder.

How much harder? That is the main question, but the fact that it would be bad for tourney performance is conclusive.
 
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DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
Same thing happend with 3-star frogs etc.
It won't be from province #1, but later, yeah.
I suspect the 4 star enemy units would begin appearing at +-30 province in the next patch (being positive), but I won´t be surprise if they appear at the 20th province.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
What do you mean?

When you reach XVI chapter all your units are 3 star ones, Inno would (according to some people) put new 4 star units together with the new 18º chapter.
You can paint as many stars on units as you like, what is important what the 4th star means. Does it give a few extra HP? I wouldn´t care much, does it give every unit an extra special ability? I would care very much. So unless somebody can quantitfy what the 4th star does, the discussion is rather pointless.
 

SoggyShorts

Necromancer
I suspect the 4 star enemy units would begin appearing at +-30 province in the next patch (being positive), but I won´t be surprise if they appear at the 20th province.
In provs 1 through 5 the enemy brings 1 star troops.
In provs 6 through 10 they bring 2 star troops.
In provs 11 and above they bring 3 star troops.
My guess is 16+ will start seeing 4*
does anyone know what 4 star even means?
I'll have to look for it
The one example that I remember is a troop that had 80% defense buff went up to 90%.
That means they will take half as much damage, a full 50% reduction (from 20 to 10) against that troop type.
 

Wibbly Woo

Spellcaster
I’m not sure mechanically there is a deep reason not to simply insert the 4-star enemies in province 16 maintaining the pattern. Yes, it will hurt top end tournament performance, but it would do it equally to everyone. At the same time, it will make little to no difference to the non competitive 10 chest tournament fellowships who don’t need to go past province 10 for the most part anyway.
 

DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
I’m not sure mechanically there is a deep reason not to simply insert the 4-star enemies in province 16 maintaining the pattern. Yes, it will hurt top end tournament performance, but it would do it equally to everyone. At the same time, it will make little to no difference to the non competitive 10 chest tournament fellowships who don’t need to go past province 10 for the most part anyway.
I only play this game for the competition itself, be this tournament, spire or even kp hunting, I´m not interested in building a big city just for the sake of building it, It gotta has certain functionality and an "end" for my cities to exists.

Yes, this new feature of 4 star units wouldn´t affect 10 chests FSs, but in my case and many other competitive FSs it will.
Now InnoGames has been doing too much damage to tournament performance lately, with the new tournament system made big changes that affected all the top tourney competitive FSs, and NOW they want to keep pressuring and deploying more nerfs in tournament system.

4 stars are not necessary, no one asked them that, in any case they could easily have created new battle units with new abilities, it would have been more interested, and make lot of players really try to reach further chapters to obtain these new ones.

The new 4 stars units, in my opinion is just the complement Inno wanted to the big nerf tournament suffered months ago, but they didn´t make this move cause it would has been too much.
 

Wibbly Woo

Spellcaster
@DunkelSaturn Nothing you have said materially changes the point that 4-star units from province 16/21/26/whatever won’t change anything for tournament players who don’t attempt those provinces. Given Inno apparently have made clear the design for tournaments is entirely based around the 10 chest goal, this means that the design target for tournaments is unchanged by 4-star units in all but the most extreme unbalanced fellowships.

For those impacted, the initial impact is likely to simply be a reduction across the board in the provinces completed, with the players who advance through to chapter 18 eventually gaining an advantage over those who stayed in chapter 15 as they will get the new units. Given that the common complaint was that advancing to chapter 16 and 17 was objectively a poor play, I am not convinced that addressing that is inherently a bad decision.

We don’t yet know the details on what 4-star units will look like. Until we get that we don’t know if this is going to be an objectively bad change, or simply a change disliked because it changes a comfortable status quo.
 

DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
@DunkelSaturn Nothing you have said materially changes the point that 4-star units from province 16/21/26/whatever won’t change anything for tournament players who don’t attempt those provinces. Given Inno apparently have made clear the design for tournaments is entirely based around the 10 chest goal, this means that the design target for tournaments is unchanged by 4-star units in all but the most extreme unbalanced fellowships.
Inno never have said that 10 chests are entirely the prime goal, never has published such a thing.

Most extreme unbalanced fellowships? I didnt know that this was the name of mine and many other competitive FSs in EN and all other servers. I ask you to have some respect for mine and many other FSs that play this game for the tournament only and has suffered really hard times by all Inno has made in recent times.

For those impacted, the initial impact is likely to simply be a reduction across the board in the provinces completed, with the players who advance through to chapter 18 eventually gaining an advantage over those who stayed in chapter 15 as they will get the new units. Given that the common complaint was that advancing to chapter 16 and 17 was objectively a poor play, I am not convinced that addressing that is inherently a bad decision.
Not at all.

In this new tournament system every research has its impact to your overall tournament performance, every AWs level you upgrade and every new expansion you place has its toll in your tourney playing. From 15 chapter to 18 chapter there´s like 60 researches (I believe even more, if someone has the real numbers please feel free to put it here) and the overall advantages that Barracks, Training Grounds and Merc Camps gives you is so poor that it doesn´t counter the penalty that your current level in those chapter puts you for tournament performance.

So now a player in 14-15 chapter (even with non-4 star units or merc camp, T.Grounds or Barracks upgrades) would still having much more advantage than another player in 18-19-20 chapters, cause the toll of the researches and new expansions (if placed) would counter the lack of the very first 2 four star units.

The question now would be, it is better to keep advancing till whatever chapter Inno want us to reach to get those "new" (are not new my friend, are just a little more powerful) 4 star units with all the penalty in enemy squads size that we´ll get through 16, 17, 18, 19..... chapter? Or should we stay in 15-16 chapter with non- 4 star units but without all the penalty that players ahead in chapters have?

For us that stay in 15-16 chapter the inclusion of 4 star units is definitely a big nerf, but for you that now are at the 17 chapter and wants to keep advancing would be even harder now, cause besides you´re having a big penalty for your chapter, you´ll face 4 star enemy units untill you´ve reached the 23/24 chapter, but even then the advantage won´t be that clear (if there´s one).
 
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DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
We don’t yet know the details on what 4-star units will look like. Until we get that we don’t know if this is going to be an objectively bad change, or simply a change disliked because it changes a comfortable status quo.
I don´t care changes that makes it more difficult, I only care that these be smart and creative ones... Why do they put 4 star units to promote chapter progression when they can put new types of units, with new skills, including a new type of military building ? Why they don´t give good upgrades for the barracks, Merc Camp and T.Grounds that makes it easier for player in those chapter counter a little bit the penalty of the research and expansion progression?

In my case I will still (even easier) when the 18º chapter appears, surpassing in tournament results players that are in the 17-18 chapter cause they would even get (even with the very first 4 star units) more penalty than me in my actual 15º chapter.
 

Far Reach

Soothsayer
does anyone know what 4 star even means? I agree there is a chance it´ll be a nerf, but there is also a chance it doesn´t do much at all...
Elven Architect has the stats of all 4* units. Generally they appear to have around +10% to attack and defence, and also additional bonuses of 10% to some of their stats against favoured enemies. There isn't any indication of additional special powers though.
 

Wibbly Woo

Spellcaster
@DunkelSaturn i am not sure what your complaint here is. As I have seen it repeatedly claimed that the limit on tournament performance is not battle difficulty but ability to sustain battles costs, I fail to see how an across the board increase in costs by increasing the difficulty for all players will change a competitive ranking. Sure, now you may only score 30,000 instead of 40,000 but everyone else will face the same change, so the ranking will stay the same. The only way this would impact rankings (not number, but relative scores) is if players proceeding to chapter 18 slowly start gaining an advantage from having more powerful troops.

Regarding the 10-chest goal for tournaments. The prize structure makes it very clear the intention is for most fellowships to aspire to 10-chest, and anything further is bragging rights. The repeated refusal to consider increasing the prizes for anything beyond 10-chest supports this claim. So from the visible game design, anything above 40,000 tournament score for a fellowship appears to be bragging rights. So long as rankings aren’t distorted by changes, I fail to see why bragging rights are impacted by the number. Top is still top.

regarding imbalanced fellowships, my comment was that most fellowships can achieve 10-chest without needing to fight 3-star enemies if they have 20+ active players. Most don’t, but the problem is player activity and commitment. i will concede that a two man fellowship may now struggle to achieve 40,000 points for 10-chest, but as a I said, I consider that an imbalanced fellowship.

so in summary, 4-star impact on tournament performance is going to be in the bragging rights section of the results, and not in the “impacts the vast majority of players” section. I also suspect that due to the fact this applies equally to every fighter player, it will be a relatively minor impact in terms of how fellowships rank as the very top performing fellowships have so many players pushing so far beyond the 3-star threshold that they are likely to all be impacted equally. The numbers may end up smaller, your players may only do 35 provinces each instead of 40, but that will be the same for absolutely everyone competing at that level.
 

DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
so in summary, 4-star impact on tournament performance is going to be in the bragging rights section of the results, and not in the “impacts the vast majority of players” section.
Bragging rights? Like what actually happens with all those FSs with players that have a very big city with lot of manus that don´t need them just to high their bragging rights in total score? Or what actually happens with FSs that play hard in FA to brag about their results over others ? I don´t know what´s your vision of what this game should be, but every good game IS BASED IN COMPETITON, all of them, and that part of bragging, well is part of it, if your vision of this game is purely scatter buildings to make your city looks pretty or just have a great time with your fellows (both I enjoy to do BTW) is ok, but competition is one of the main purpose of this and many other games.

Sometimes I think players like you would wish Blueprints should be given for crafting or by other means so they can avoid tournament participation. I think inno should do this so tournament should be left for players that really enjoys tournament and competition itself, so you can care even less about us bragging about it.

I also suspect that due to the fact this applies equally to every fighter player, it will be a relatively minor impact in terms of how fellowships rank as the very top performing fellowships have so many players pushing so far beyond the 3-star threshold that they are likely to all be impacted equally. The numbers may end up smaller, your players may only do 35 provinces each instead of 40, but that will be the same for absolutely everyone competing at that level.
Yes, that´s obviously going to happen, the limit and stretch that a player is custom to normally reach would be reduced evenly for all top high score players, what´s not going to happen is what you said in some lines above : That players at 18 chapter would progressively get better results in comparison with 14-16ch ones cause they would get those 4 star units, that´s obviously not going to happen.

And yes, it is bad for tournament and Elvenar in general cause we´ll get even slower KP and spells, because no matter how much harder we tourney, a player that do much less, let´s say until 25 province ( and won´t be affected to much by the new changes) would get results of people that now will get lower results by those same changes. I really doubt you don´t see this, is clear what´s going to happen in that matter.

You have different view of this game than mine and top tourney FS and players. If your main purpose is only having a blueprint, and that´s the main purpose I don´t have nothing to discuss with you, cause we have different goals on this game and like I say, Inno would make you a real good favor if they took blueprints out of tournament prizes, so you can achieve them without having to play tournament, am I right?
 

SoggyShorts

Necromancer
but every good game IS BASED IN COMPETITON, all of them
No.
if your vision of this game is purely scatter buildings to make your city looks pretty or just have a great time with your fellows (both I enjoy to do BTW) is ok, but competition is one of the main purpose of this and many other games.
Says you.
If every single player outside of my FS skipped the next tournament I wouldn't even notice.
 

Hekata

Shaman
I'm not sure how the changes will affect fellowships as a whole but I do believe it will have an impact on the individual game of many players. A lot of city economies are based on tournaments. For instance it's where we get most of our spells from. I'm used to do about 25-28 provinces (all 6 rounds) and I am almost sure it won't be sustainable for me anymore if the introduce the 4* troops in province 16. It's also less Kps which will slow down progress through the chapters for a lot of players.
Let's also not forget the hats for FA. We often discuss how residues and bracelets are a bottlenecks but I find that hats can be a big problem too. We can timeboost them in the academy ofc but we already need boosters to speed up crafting, often make additional CCs too + the regular boost of troops production for those who fight (and btw 4* troops mean more losses in provinces 16+ = need for more troops so again need for more boosters). There is only so many time boosters one can have, even when playing the full spire in a golden medal FS. And on top of that we have the tiara badge that is easy to make but basically forces us to waste spells that will now be harder to get.

Plus I have the feeling everyone here is discussing player having all 3* troops and how well they will do against 4* but how about all the players that mostly have 2* troops? It surly will have an even bigger impact on them.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
You can paint as many stars on units as you like, what is important what the 4th star means. Does it give a few extra HP? I wouldn´t care much, does it give every unit an extra special ability? I would care very much. So unless somebody can quantitfy what the 4th star does, the discussion is rather pointless.
An example I have seen was that DR went from 80 to 90%

Thats a 50% reduction in damage if it is not countered.
Yeach those -def specs are gonna be even more important than they already are.
Because the current tournaments are so mixed you will always encounter some nasty units.
 

DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
Yes, I could name some ( but is against the rules of this forum ), or leave you a link here (Idk if this also allowed) to show you how the most popular games and the ones that most money collect are basically based in competition being this RPGs, MMORPG, RTS, MOBA or even the sandbox types (yes you know which one) are based in exactly competition over other players, the past where survival and history based games were the main thing are over.
Says you.
If every single player outside of my FS skipped the next tournament I wouldn't even notice.
Says the most competitive fellowships in every Elvenar server....
Of course you wouldn´t notice cause you´re not focused in that aspect of the game.
 
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DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
Plus I have the feeling everyone here is discussing player having all 3* troops and how well they will do against 4* but how about all the players that mostly have 2* troops? It surly will have an even bigger impact on them.
Yes, I have thought also about it, the impact would be too much on them my friend. Like I said in some lines above, this new change would be the complement that this new tournament system was lacking and requiring.