11th Tournament Chest

[LazyTony]

Again, using how many players accomplish something is a bad way to measure difficulty.

If this was the only factor, on day 1 of the new tourney reward system winning scores and 10 chest FSes would be just as common as today. In fact they are 10 times more common. This has been a gradual process, with numbers slowing increasing. Just wanting it isn't enough, you need to build a city the right way, learn the combat system. Then, accumulate those military wonder levels and it gets a little easier each week. To use your analogy, just because running a marathon had a 1 million dollar prize, I couldn't run one tomorrow. It would convince me to start training to do able to do one though.

I missed the great shift you describe, like the OP. I wonder what proportion of players still playing remember the old system? 5%? 10%? I know I seem like an old timer when I chat with others. It does sound like a big shift, its a whole new playing style. An 11th chest isn't a whole new playing style, its a tweak on the current one. Like changing the chests on events for example.

Anyway I think we have fruitfully discussed all we can on the subject, and must agree to disagree. Let's revisit this in 6 months or a year, and see how the balance seems then

 

[Timneh]

What is it about some players, something I just can't understand, that they will prevent a change that doesn't effect them, just because someone else will enjoy it?

Do you really think that anything said in this thread is going to change anything because i don't.

I've ignored your taunts 3 times now.

You think i was taunting you ? I wasn't but i can't control how you think.

Like you said this debate seems to be pointless now, we all have our different views on things and it is unlikely that we are going to change them from anything said here so this will be my last post on this.

 

[Deleted User - 341074]

If this was the only factor, on day 1 of the new tourney reward system winning scores and 10 chest FSes would be just as common as today. In fact they are 10 times more common. This has been a gradual process, with numbers slowing increasing. Just wanting it isn't enough, you need to build a city the right way, learn the combat system. Then, accumulate those military wonder levels and it gets a little easier each week.

No.
You get better each week, the tournament stays the same. That is VERY different than the tournament getting easier.

If I work really hard(or get someone to fill all of my wonders for me) and *I* get really good at doing the tournament, that does not mean the tournament should change and be harder for *everyone*.

I put in X effort and a player who started playing 6 months later than I has to put in x+1 effort to get the same rewards?
How would that be fair?

It does sound like a big shift, its a whole new playing style. An 11th chest isn't a whole new playing style, its a tweak on the current one.

Like when tournament FS rewards got doubled? Yeah, that was just a tweak and still caused a fair bit of strife among any FS not already getting 10 chests every single week.

 

[RainbowElvira]

An 11th chest isn't a whole new playing style, its a tweak on the current one.

True. If the chest is empty. But since you want more of a challenge, you sure do not want any reward that makes your game easier?

doing the same thing over and over again, for 70 straight weeks without ever having to try gets boring

I do agree that the tournaments are a simple, repetitive task - boring, yes. You want to add some spice by making things harder. Exactly the same tedious and boring task, but loosing much more resources. Doesn't sound fun to me

And tournaments are not solely a elitist fun thing, cities of all sizes rely on the KPs, relics and runes they gain from them.

I believe that the tournament is currently well balanced if perhaps a little on the hard side.

This is my opinion, too.

 

[LazyTony]

No

This is semantics. We are using different definitions of difficulty. Absolute difficulty, and relative difficulty. If you have no wonders, no unit boost buildings then the tourney is absolutely more difficult than when you do. Tourneys are getting absolutely easier as players build cities to do them, and relatively easier, as players get better (knowledge, manual fighting skill) at doing them.

If you think todays balance is about right, maybe slightly too hard, you will reach your preferred sweet spot in a few months. Then the game will go past it.

 

[Deleted User - 341074]

We are using different definitions of difficulty. Absolute difficulty, and relative difficulty.

And you are using both definitions incorrectly.
It's not just semantics when you are asking for things to change for ALL players based on what SOME players have accomplished.
Especially if the means used to accomplish them were...suspect.

If you think todays balance is about right, maybe slightly too hard, you will reach your preferred sweet spot in a few months.

Based on what? The FirePhoenix and Chapter 14 wonders? Not enough to move the needle.

Then the game will go past it.

Based on what? Do you know about an upcoming tournament nerf or player-base wide buff that I don't?

 

[DeletedUser6935]

Oooh, you know what would be fun? Forget an 11th chest. How about an extra round and an extra day of tournament goodness, i.e. 7 rounds over 6 days? Actually, that would make getting 11 chests easier for everyone. Should we talk 12 chests?

 

[LazyTony]

And you are using both definitions incorrectly.

Would you find it easier to drill a hole in a wall with a spoon or an electrically powered drill? The wall (chest score requirements) hasn't changed. Your tools to accomplish the task have changed, thus making it easier. If you don't believe wonders, unit boost buildings etc make tourneys easier, then delete them all. By claiming tourneys are just as difficult as they ever were because the scores required are still the same, you are using a narrow definition of absolute difficulty. Semantics. By your definition of difficulty a stone age hunter gatherer has just as much difficulty getting to the moon as NASA. After all, the moon is just as far away. I'd suggest the invention of rocketry and computers, hell newtonian physics and the theory of gravity made things a little easier.

It's not just semantics when you are asking for things to change for ALL players based on what SOME players have accomplished.

Indeed it isn't. I didn't claim adding an 11th chest chest was semantics, I claimed your definition of difficulty was. I also gave up on increasing the difficulty of the current chests about 20 posts ago, after listening to yours and others arguments. I moved onto stopping the score inflation by making it easier, and adding an 11th chest. The 10th chest wouldn't change for anyone. It wouldn't be made continually easier to get there with wonders unit boost and other goodies. An 11th would be added. Please try to argue with what I'm saying, not what you would like me to be saying.

Based on what?

Based on a projection of the current trend with more and more players scoring higher and higher. I'll set a note in my calendar for 6 months time, and if I am still playing, we'll see if no more, a few more, or a lot more players and FSes score highly.

 

[RainbowElvira]

Maybe they should provide the 11th chest with a free squad size upgrade. That way there's always a challenge for those who can do 10 chests too easily.

 

[LazyTony]

I know you meant it as a joke, but that sounds like fun to me

Soggy will tell me off again though if I hint at liking things to be more difficult

 

[Deleted User - 341074]

Your tools to accomplish the task have changed, thus making it easier.

But only FOR ME. If everyone automatically has a drill, that's different.
Please try to get this concept:
If you say "the tournament is easier", that is wrong unless it is easier for everyone.
Not everyone has max level wonders, so the tournament isn't easier for everyone, so asking for a harder tournament for everyone isn't exactly fair, is it?

Imagine this: the top 20 fellowships all quit the game. Now only 1 or 2 fellowships get 10 chests. Would you say that the tournament got harder? No, of course not. Should they reduce the chests? No, of course not.

Maybe another example will help.
If 1 person trains for 10 years to climb Everest, is it correct to say that climbing Mt. Everest became easier?
No. It is not. Only If everyone automatically gets 10 years of training can you say that Everest became easier.

The 10th chest wouldn't change for anyone.

Spoiler: I already said why that's untrue, so anyone paying attention can skip this, but you shouldn't:

My FS just like @LazyTony 's FS has a mix of players. This is a good thing and imo the best way to enjoy the game- some teaching, some learning, growth, and progress. However, some of the group want the 10th chest more than others and are a little more hardcore than others. That's normal. The trick is in getting enough "hardcore" to cover the underachieving players, then everyone is happy. Add in an 11th chest that has a meaningful prize and the alliance starts to crack.

E.G.
If there was a second blueprint in that 11th chest what would I tell my 3K member?
"Sorry, we just aren't an 11 chest group we told recruits that the minimum was ____ maybe, perhaps someday we'll get there? "

Or do I tell my 1K players "Shape up or ship out, the new min score is _____ you have x weeks to comply or I will kick you. Yes, I know we said the minimum score was _____ when we recruited you and you said that's the max you can do with your schedule and we've become friends, but sorry"

Either way, there's a solid chance that many fellowships would lose players and probably miss quite a few 10th chests for at least a while until the dust settles and some 11 chest FS form while the rest fade away. Doesn't sound like fun to me.

Based on a projection of the current trend with more and more players scoring higher and higher. I'll set a note in my calendar for 6 months time, and if I am still playing, we'll see if no more, a few more, or a lot more players and FSes score highly.

Meaningless without context.

Start a brand new city and a brand new FS and see how hard it is to get 10 chests today.
then wait 6 months and
Start a brand new city and a brand new FS and see how hard it is to get 10 chests then.

If that is easier in 6 months, then maybe the tournament got easier, but only if there is a variable that changed like squad sizes no longer effecting encounter sizes or a new barracks spell being introduced.
For the tournament to become easier there would have to be a universal buff for all players or a nerf to the tournament.

Just more players getting 10 chests could be due to a number of factors. Like more players being bored waiting for a new chapter than ever before, so they devote more time to it. This would not be reflected in a simple "How many got 10?" comparison.

 

[LazyTony]

But only FOR ME. If everyone automatically has a drill, that's different.

You, my friend, love your narrow definitions of everything. I'm guessing the world is mostly black and white for you, with very little grey. How about if the drill was invented after the task was set? You can choose to buy one or not, the shop is round the corner. In this analogy, the newly invented drills would be every military wonder after woodelves or S + D or whenever tourneys in this format started. None are total game changers, but they all incrementally make things easier.

Tournaments also become easier when the average wonder level changes. One players levels one wonder, then ofc it only becomes easier for him. When 3k players have an average of 20 military wonder levels a year ago, and an average of 100 today, then on average, the tourney got easier.

Not everyone has max level wonders

Indeed, but the benefits start at level 1. And they get bigger with each level. Its not all or nothing again, its incremental, shades of grey, making it easier and easier.

adding a 11th chest actually will make the 10th chest harder and here's why:

I would hate for this to happen, it would certainly be an unintended consequence. I'm far less sure than you that it would happen, I don't believe it would happen in my FS, but who knows. A possible deal breaker for sure.

Meaningless without context.

No measure of anything is perfect. Because it isn't perfect it doesn't mean you stop measuring it, or that some data is worse than no data. The fact is, scoring stats are the only objective measure we have, however imperfect. Its you and your black and white again I take your reservations about its usefulness on board, but I still believe some objective data is useful rather than 100% subjective impressions. I know that Inno will look at this sort of data when deciding on game balance. Your suggested objective measure has the minor downside of taking months of effort to get a result. , and is impossible when comparing a year ago with today, it can only be used to compare today with the future.

An analogy with this would be trying to compare school results today with those of the past, and trying to project into the future from past trends. You would suggest todays and yesterdays test scores are irrelevant, and the only way I could answer the question was by having a kid 5 years ago, today, and 5 years into the future and treating them exactly the same. That would indded be a very good measure. Its just very impractical, so the question must be answered with the data and tools available. Refusing to answer it without perfect measures has consequences.

 

[Deleted User - 341074]

You, my friend, love your narrow definitions of everything. I'm guessing the world is mostly black and white for you, with very little grey.

A desire for precision and accuracy do not equate to narrow mindedness as you seem to imply.

every military wonder after woodelves or S + D or whenever tourneys in this format started. None are total game changers, but they all incrementally make things easier.

This is actually a good point, and very close. Yes, I agree that any military wonders that have been released since FS tournaments have made things easier for some.
Using an example: the victory springs, how much of the tournament inclined playerbase now has an easier tournament?
Only those with
FS members who have 1. completed Elementals, 2. gotten runes to build the wonder, and 3. are fighters in the tournament.
That's still pretty specific. If the Victory springs had been added to chapter 1 I would say that the tournament straight up got easier( at least 2/9ths of the time)

I contend that such incremental changes that have occurred in the past year do not explain all or even most the increase in 10 chest fellowships. I believe it is mostly an aging and maturing game, shifting demographics, and the incentives I listed earlier that have been the driving force.

But I will concede (again) that craftable military and Phoenix stuff will have an impact, I just think that it will remain reasonable. For now.

I would hate for this to happen, it would certainly be an unintended consequence. I'm far less sure than you that it would happen, I don't believe it would happen in my FS, but who knows. A possible deal breaker for sure.

An unintended consequence for sure, but not an unforeseeable one. It's my main reservation about all this. It's why I'd support (or at least not fight) a FS ranking only addition, even if I think it wouldn't work for the reasons I posted earlier. No need for an 11th chest with that idea BTW, just add it in.

I take your reservations about its usefulness on board, but I still believe some objective data is useful rather than 100% subjective impressions.

Fair enough, so long as we understand that there will almost certainly be more 10 chest FS in the future and that it isn't necessarily indicative of a reduction in the challenge level of getting 40K point.s

 

[Lelanya]

Hey, @SoggyShorts
Our Tony was away for part of the week and we decided to set that record we've been talking about since November. The one where our Fellowship scored 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 7th, 10th, 15th, 20th, 21st, 39th, 53rd, hmm let's see: that's 11 in the top 100. How many chests is 95 289, exactly? That's what was earned by our various fellows while in our fellowship.
So I have to reiterate: I completely support introducing an 11th chest, thanks again for this thread

 

[Deleted User - 341074]

Hey, @SoggyShorts
Our Tony was away for part of the week and we decided to set that record we've been talking about since November. The one where our Fellowship scored 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 7th, 10th, 15th, 20th, 21st, 39th, 53rd, hmm let's see: that's 11 in the top 100. How many chests is 95 289, exactly? That's what was earned by our various fellows while in our fellowship.
So I have to reiterate: I completely support introducing an 11th chest, thanks again for this thread

I don't understand why you tagged me in this...brag?
Are you trying to impress me? I'm sorry, but it'd take a lot more than gathering a few big spenders a couple of pushers and 11 million score together.

 

[Lelanya]

I don't understand why you tagged me in this...brag?
Are you trying to impress me? I'm sorry, but it'd take a lot more than gathering a few big spenders a couple of pushers and 11 million score together.

Ahh I fight my way mainly. Same for my fellows, and nope, I play my Lela clean. She likely shows inactive on ES on Wyn

 

[Deleted User - 341074]

and nope, I play my Lela clean

Well, you might play clean, but does it count if you have 2 blatant cheaters in your FS? I mean if it doesn't bother you, then fine but for me, every victory would feel a little hollow.

 

[Lelanya]

Wow
I just enjoy the game and those I find in it. I cannot control what others do, only what I do. So I founded a fellowship for those who like to tourney, and it turns out the same crew like to FA, as well.
We often score at least 50K a week. This particular week we decided to go all out and see how high we could score. Next time we go for that it will be even better. So you #s people, how many chests did we collect, if there were more, with 95k?

 

[m4rt1n]

Wow
I just enjoy the game and those I find in it. I cannot control what others do, only what I do. So I founded a fellowship for those who like to tourney, and it turns out the same crew like to FA, as well.
We often score at least 50K a week. This particular week we decided to go all out and see how high we could score. Next time we go for that it will be even better. So you #s people, how many chests did we collect, if there were more, with 95k?

That would depend on the chest escalator as it is not even, but assuming 600,1200,1900,2600,3400,4200,5100,6000,7000,8000 the last 3 increasing by 1000 my maths would guess that further chests may increase by 1200 then 1500 so I would guestimate at 14 to 15 chests for that score.

To stay on topic I disagree to adding an 11th chest as that would be too elitist for my liking of the game but do think a solution as I posted earlier would be to add Fellowship Ranking Points maybe for the top 50 Fellowships each week, similar to how Fellowship Ranking Points are added in the Adventures.

 

[DeletedUser5287]

Well after reading all the comments I still believe WE NEED MORE CHESTS as well as more FA's. For those of us who find being challenged is how we enjoy the game and have FUN why should we be denied this