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To the moderators of this forum - On the use of language

Laurelin

Sorcerer
So you call your FS "Brot" (bread in German), but you´re not allowed to list all your favorite baked German goods in the description of your FS. Instead you would have to translate all those baked goods into English. Also you would be allowed to say "I love Brot" here on this Forum, but you would not be allowed to translate this sentence into German.
... Surely I can't be the only person who, on reading this, is irresistibly reminded of the famous Monty Python 'Hungarian Phrasebook' sketch...?!
I was going to post a link to it here, but having re-watched it for the first time in quite a while, I've decided against doing so, although I think (?!) I can at least get away with quoting this line from the courtroom part of the sketch:
"... You are hereby charged that you did wilfully and with malice aforethought publish an alleged English-Hungarian phrasebook with intent to cause a breach of the peace".
The Pythons were evidently prophets as well as comedians...! ;)
 

Sir Derf

Adept
I'm reminded of a story I heard about Robin Williams from when he was on Mork & Mindy. In a cold war escalation of attempts to slip off-color jokes into improvised or unpreviewed alien dialogue, he eventually needed monitoring by censors fluent in at least 4 languages.
 

Sigyn

Spellcaster
I am perfectly fine with speaking english here, but names? using a non-english name is not even the same as speaking a language different from English! So I don´t see it even falling under the forum rules at all! How do you feel about immigrants in real life? They speak perferctly good english but may have an Indian (or whatever non-english ethnicity) name? Is that worth censoring in your eyes?
i absolutely agree.....if a name is offensive then it's understandable; in all other situations a name esp. a chosen name is an expression of identity, an acknowledgement of who you perceive yourself to be, censoring that is wrong on every single level......no one has the right to dictate someone's identity, to tell them who they are is wrong! That kind of censorship leads to discrimination - to rejecting people due to the colour of their skin, or their gender identity of their religious beliefs......it's not and never should be ok again.
 

Stucon

Illusionist
A fellowship name has to be reasonable.
'We think all (enter ethnic group here) are sub-human' would be unacceptable regardless of what language it was written in. I took a while t choose this example, I could have chosen something far cruder.
We are not talking about given names here, that should be a completely different debate.
 

m4rt1n

Adept
Elvenar is a magical world, "Elvenar" is not a a word in the OED, I saw the original that caused this with the translation from Afrikaans and have to say my road has potholes so the workman is a hole filler, how on earth is that offensive, in any language.

Its just the same that my son's school had to change the name of the blackboard to chalkboard I mean come on everyone..... Lets just be sensible about this, political correctness gone bonkers.
 

Sir Derf

Adept
Would a non-native speaker recognize common allusions and slang meanings of a native speaker, or of a local region?

I can think of any number of common English euphemisms which someone without the relevant cultural contexts or historical perspectives wouldn't think twice of, but would be instantly recognizable to the local. There are phrases that have deeper meanings to Brits that Americans wouldn't notice, and double entendres Americans use that would pass right under a Brit's nose.

In many cases that's the whole point of the colorful phrase; to be able to say something outrageous, or salacious, or blasphemous, or insulting, in such a way that it can pass unnoticed by certain parties, or go unnoticed in certain settings.
 

Laurelin

Sorcerer
I saw the original that caused this with the translation from Afrikaans and have to say my road has potholes so the workman is a hole filler, how on earth is that offensive, in any language.
Wait... So, if I understand @m4rt1n correctly, the entire kerfuffle was caused by someone using a term which could possibly be interpreted as a (rather childish) sexual innuendo? I thought it must have been some kind of coarsely vulgar so-called 'four-letter-word', or a well-known racial slur, or something else which is at least considered definitively and non-ironically offensive by the large majority of average readers... :/

And re the 'pothole-filling' example - here in the UK, it's very common, upon finishing a good meal, to say: "Well, that really filled a hole!"... meaning that the food was hearty and satisfying, thus filling a gap in one's formerly empty stomach. This phrase is freely used by adults and children alike, and in fact is considered to be a COMPLIMENT to the person who provided the meal (even though, yes, that same phrase could also have a [not desperately] vulgar meaning in other contexts; but isn't that the entire point of double entendres... the fact that they have more than one commonplace meaning?!).

Furthermore, there is no published book of well-known UK children's jokes, puns, and general humour which doesn't contain some kind of joke about 'Phil McCavity', the joke-name dentist. As in 'filling a tooth cavity', or even (dare I say it?) 'filling a hole in a tooth', as it's often explained to... children.

If the EN Forum is going to start adjudicating on the multiple, and often both fine and arguable, shades of linguistic meaning which are involved in double entendres - and especially if actual censorship is going to result (which is a far more serious matter, in my view, than the chance that any given [or, worse, theoretical/random] person may be merely 'offended' by the text which is censored - which in my book does NOT = 'materially harmed'; that's very different), then - as has already been raised here - perhaps the EN Forum rules should at the very least be harmonised with the in-game naming conventions. I've seen multiple Player Names and especially FS Names, even in my own small local Map area, which certainly wouldn't be considered acceptable in even average, let alone 'polite', adult society - although not only can I not give examples here due to the Forum Rule about mentioning other player's names (/sigh), but now, it appears, because I'd also be breaching some 'anti-double-entendre' rule as well? (/sigh x 2...)

I have honestly never come across an online Forum with so many rules - nor with rules which appear so easy to breach. Am I even allowed to say that?!

Of course, if I've misinterpreted the above-quoted comment, please just ignore me... often the best option in any case! ^_^
 

Pauly7

Magus
Wait... So, if I understand @m4rt1n correctly, the entire kerfuffle was caused by someone using a term which could possibly be interpreted as a (rather childish) sexual innuendo?
This isn't the right translation. The real one is no more offensive though. I'm not going to say what it is because it got deleted last time, but if you look up the old locked thread and search for the fellowship of the OP you'll probably figure it out.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
how did this get allowed?

It is the name of a ficticious FS, non-english names are allowed and since bread is inoffensive it is not going to be deleted. Just finish reading the post you quoted from and you get the whole explanation.
 

BlueBlou

Illusionist
If the moderators will allow, I can give a language lesson.

First one has to understand a problem, then one has to find ways to overcome that problem. The problem as I see it is that it all started with the translation of a certain word, which then snowballed into various actions and that we do not all concur on whether this was the correct interpretation or action.

I think we also need to think of ways on how to discuss or debate on whether a word or a phrase is actually offensive when somebody deems or perceives it to be offensive. We do come from a wide range of cultures and backgrounds and we do have different interpretations at times and what is acceptable to one may not be acceptable to another.

——-

@Sir Derf has put it so well. Innocent words may have a totally different meaning. I mean, who of you has seen that joke that used to run the email rounds about what woman say and what they actually mean? (... just to lighten the mood a little.)
 

Gargon667

Mentor
If the EN Forum is going to start adjudicating on the multiple, and often both fine and arguable, shades of linguistic meaning which are involved in double entendres - and especially if actual censorship is going to result (which is a far more serious matter, in my view, than the chance that any given [or, worse, theoretical/random] person may be merely 'offended' by the text which is censored - which in my book does NOT = 'materially harmed'; that's very different), then - as has already been raised here - perhaps the EN Forum rules should at the very least be harmonised with the in-game naming conventions. I've seen multiple Player Names and especially FS Names, even in my own small local Map area, which certainly wouldn't be considered acceptable in even average, let alone 'polite', adult society - although not only can I not give examples here due to the Forum Rule about mentioning other player's names (/sigh), but now, it appears, because I'd also be breaching some 'anti-double-entendre' rule as well? (/sigh x 2...)

I guess the problem here is that there simply is no such thing as objectively offensive. Offensive is always a subjective feeling. What is offensive to you may not be to me and vice versa. So yes of course moderators will ALWAYS have to judge based on their own feelings and experiences.
This judgement will always be somewhere on a sliding scale, as no word ever spoken in any language anywhere can be 100% guaranteed to be offensive or inoffensive to the entire population of our planet.
What I am trying to advocate here is a somewhat higher degree of restraint when censoring. Push the marker on that sliding scale up a bit from "could possibly be offensive to someone" to "is probably offensive to most".
I am rather certain that change would make the forum a better rather than a worse place to be.

Also mistakes will be made. That is completely expected. It is not even a bad thing. It is just part of how this works. The question might rather be, which mistake is worse and which one can we live with a bit better?

1. The offensive term that does not get censored or
2. The inoffensive term that does get censored?

I personally find the second kind of error much worse. And therefore I advocate to push the sliding scale to fewer #2 and more #1 errors.

That is as far as I can see the best possible outcome of this discussion.
 

Sir Derf

Adept
It is possible for a listener to infer nearly anything that no speaker ever intended to imply.
Take Beavis & Butthead. No, seriously, take them, they're the worst. Or, consider your typical elementary school boy. "The lion tamer cracked his whip." "He said 'crack'. Heh heh heh."

It is possible for the listener to infer something that a reasonable speaker did not intended to imply.
It is possibly to commit an offense without awareness or intentional malice.
As such, the defense of "That's not what I meant to say." isn't an automatic get-out-of-jail-free card.


In the reverse...

It is possible to not understand any reference, be that from ignorance, or (possibly over-generous) giving the benefit of a doubt.
Take Drax, that catcher of all metaphors, Take him to the park, he'd like that. Or again consider elementary school kids. Openly discuss plans for a surprise birthday party referring to it as a Trojan Horse (or a Red Wedding?), and they'll be kept in the dark. ("He said 'Trojan'. Heh heh heh." Shut up Beavis, this isn't your part of the discussion. Get back to your own paragraph.) Reference old TV shows, the works of Shakespeare, or any other piece of shared ephemera. Consider Cockney rhyming slang, a la Ocean's Eleven ("Heh heh heh. He said-" Go Home, Beavis!) You can create a brand new string of words, never seen or heard before in the history of time, with the expectation that the other party will catch your Otis. ..... Otis. ..... Otis Lifts. Drifts. Catch your drift.


It is possible to not understand a meaning that was meant.
It is possible to encode hidden meanings that can be nigh unnoticeable.
As such, the defense of "But I don't see it that way." fails as a silver bullet.


And this is all without throwing in another language, with it's own vocabulary, and syntax, and grammar.


We're all on that eternal quest to find a fortune teller who is experiencing a satisfying life... a happy medium.
 

Hekata

Artisan
I think we also need to think of ways on how to discuss or debate on whether a word or a phrase is actually offensive when somebody deems or perceives it to be offensive. We do come from a wide range of cultures and backgrounds and we do have different interpretations at times and what is acceptable to one may not be acceptable to another.
I'm not sure how the name of someone's FS can be considered as offensive. You may not like it, or think it's somewhat vulgar but how can a person be offended by someone else's name (or in this case FS name)?
Let me give and example. Let's say a FS is called The Donkeys (but substitute that with the less nice name for the said animal), how does it affect or offend one person that they chose that name? On the other hand, if someone calls you a Donkey (use the synonym) then yes, you can feel offended.

And shouldn't the difference in culture work both ways? If the person who writes a message must try to consider if it's something that could potentially be offensive to another culture, shouldn't people who would read said message also consider that the author of the message is form another culture and therefore what he/she's writing may not be an offensive in their culture and that therefor there is nor reason for them to be offended by it? Accepting cultural differences (especially in an environment that is multicultural by default like this server) is something that all player on an international server must do and the there is no reason for anyone to be offended, especially not by trivial things like a FS's name or a Player's name.

In fact I think that an international server is a good way to get to learn a bit about other cultures and other languages so completely suppressing anything in another language is counterproductive IMO. I'm not saying people should write essays in their native language but using some expression, names, sayings etc. (especially if it illustrates better their point) it's perfectly fine, we can all use google translate to get the gist of it if we are interested in what the person is writing.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
Elvenar is a magical world, "Elvenar" is not a a word in the OED, I saw the original that caused this with the translation from Afrikaans and have to say my road has potholes so the workman is a hole filler, how on earth is that offensive, in any language.

Its just the same that my son's school had to change the name of the blackboard to chalkboard I mean come on everyone..... Lets just be sensible about this, political correctness gone bonkers.

If elvenar is any language it would be German as German speakers have invented it. But I see no problem using the word as it is a non-english name deemed inoffensive (until proven otherwise) and we all speak about it in English. So no rules are broken.

Since dark coloured boards seem to be out of fashion anyways, what do we do with the modern version white boards? I wonder if this is more or less offensive than black boards? Do we have to rename them pen boards? Are white boards promoting (or oppressing?) white, rich, old male people more than the black version oppresses the others?
 

Pauly7

Magus
"Offensive" is way to broad a term here to be the basis for any practical rule. Nothing is offensive until someone finds it offensive and just because someone finds it offensive does not mean we are always obliged to make allowances for that.

For example, if @Hekata is offended by donkeys, then donkeys then became offensive to someone, but should we then ban donkeys? I would say no.

Interesting as this conversation is, I think it's a little off-point, from where I am concerned. My concern is partly about how rules are interpreted, but also the actions that are taken. This is the only Elvenar forum I'm aware of where the first reaction is to either delete posts or edit posts. For a post to be deleted that should result from the most major of sins that you need to protect anyone from seeing. In 99% of these cases the appropriate action would be for a mod to reply with a friendly message saying "please don't continue to discuss this topic" or some such. There is absolutely no need for such censorship and, as I said before, message editing should not happen at all.
 

Sir Derf

Adept
Some people are fine with references to small, long-eared equines. Others are strongly against references to mature female canines. Male fowl, female felines, breeding bulls. One person's sacred cow is another person's pre-hamburger. (Look what you've made me do. I've upset the vegans. Are you happy?)

Rocket is highly offended at being referred to as a 'raccoon'. Is 'trash panda' better? Should one proudly proclaim "I'm Mary Poppins, y'all!"?

Some people derive humor in substituting '0' for 'o' and '1' for 'l'. For others, the sequence 58,008, or a coincidence of 4s and 20s, or the conjunction of a pair of digits with rotational equivalency, that will elicit a chuckle by some, a grimace by others. For yet others, an alliterative pairing with the 8th letter of the alphabet is a high-pitched sound audible to the aforementioned canines.

Continuing with my shift from linguistics to numerology, some cultures construct buildings omitting a 13th floor, while for others they might skip a 4, or a 9, or even both. Don't even get me started with what does or doesn't qualify as a 'first floor'. I don't want to start an architectural flame-war

Ain't this a funny world.


Also, @Pauly, I think it's the only Elvenar forum that is intrinsically global, by definition dealing with multicultural and multilingual issues. It's at the same time the same as, and wildly different from, regional issues from say, northern or southern US, or east coast and west coast US, or other regional distinctions in other territories that the other Elvenar forums cover. And, each forum is run by a different team of people, who will make different calls, even if they are supposedly operating from the same playbook. Less a cross-post and more a cross-reference, but trying to map behaviors from all other forums onto this one might be like trying to apply casino game behavior onto the probabilistic behavior of Elvenar beacons.


Is there a Canadian Elvenar forum? Do they require all posts to be written out twice, in both English and French? And if so, do you include both versions in the same post, or are contributors required to be post separately into parallel threads? Inquiring minds want to know, eh?
 

Hekata

Artisan
Also, @Pauly, I think it's the only Elvenar forum that is intrinsically global, by definition dealing with multicultural and multilingual issues.
Actually so is the Beta forum. Shouldn't the same rules apply here and there?
 

Pauly7

Magus
Yes, as @Hekata says, the Beta forum is exactly as international as the EN forum. In fact I'd go as far as to say that it's more international. I haven't once noticed a post get deleted or edited. I'm sure it's happened at some time, but not often enough for me to have seen it happen.

Case in point is the English language rule. Someone posts a message in the wrong language and the polite mod response comes back saying "please only post in English in this forum" and they usually include a google-translated version of the foreign post. That's all. No deleting necessary.
 

Hekata

Artisan
I haven't once noticed a post get deleted or edited. I'm sure it's happened at some time, but not often enough for me to have seen it happen.
The only occasional editing I have noticed there is when someone posts about content from game files in the wrong thread then they'd blur the "spoiler" part but you can still see it if you click on it. That is a very reasonable solution IMO.
 
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