Fair Trading

[DeletedUser7733]

I agree that we like to support everything that’s in our favour. This is why there’s is so much discussion about cross tier trades. Supporters of cross tier trades will do anything to defend them because they hugely benefit out of them and players like me will get annoyed by cross trades because innocent players are drawn into making unfair trades while thinking they are fair and then running out of goods that they can’t get easily back. New players stop playing because their supposedly ‘fair’ trades don’t get done. As an archmage, I have to keep explaining why there is a problem with cross trades. I also have to keep constantly sorting through those trades to get to the right trades then clicking on it by mistake because it got in the way. Not to mention that those trades sit there for a long time. I wouldn’t bring up this issue again if this wrong valuation wasn’t causing constant disagreements amongst players and I’ve seen number of players leaving the game purely because of these disagreements. At the end, it’s a game and should be enjoyed, it’s time that the programmers reviewed the valuation to stop these disagreements as this issue is a daily occurrence, we can’t escape it, the cross tier trades are there every time we open the trader.

A problem with the game that is there every day should be a high priority to be fixed.

 

[DeletedUser5306]

Supporters of cross tier trades will do anything to defend them because they hugely benefit out of them and players like me will get annoyed by cross trades because innocent players are drawn into making unfair trades while thinking they are fair and then running out of goods that they can’t get easily back. New players stop playing because their supposedly ‘fair’ trades don’t get done. As an archmage, I have to keep explaining why there is

Dear CleverAngel777, you are entitled to your opinion and thank you for sharing this. Luckily you are the Archmage of your own fellowship thus you can set up rules that will suit your convictions regarding this game and keep you from being "annoyed" by mechanisms that are available and already in place in this game.

However we shouldn't generalize or make assumptions as this forum is a safe place for discussion and not a place to accuse or to allegate.

If you really don't like the cross tier trades for whatever reasons that are yours, the most positive and pacifist way to deal with it is just to ignore them, like many players I know do. If you can't ignore them like some who are annoyed by pushing or huge diamonds spenders for ex. do and just live with it, maybe you are taking this game too seriously.

Cheers!

 

[DeletedUser7733]

This is exactly what I was getting at. Cross tier trades are causing arguments and issues as anything that is not working well. People take it personally if I state the facts or as close as I can. I don’t really want to play with words or unimportant details. It’s completely normal to defend what we benefit from. This is another proof that this issue needs to be fixed to increase enjoyment of the game and retention of players.

 

[DeletedUser6744]

There is nothing wrong with cross tier trades, you have a choice Accept or don't accept, if I wish to trade 1000 Elixir for 500 Scrolls or anything else because at the time I need those Scrolls then I will.. I'm the one losing out on this deal but if I need the Scrolls and 'm willing to offer this trade then that's up to me and nobody else, nobody has to accept an offer or make one. People need to lighten up, this is a game nothing more.

 

[Timneh]

I personally don't see any point in complaining about cross tier trades because we all know that nothing is going to change, certainly not where Inno are concerned anyway. Like has already been said if you don't like them then ignore them. I never place or take cross tier trades, not even for FS members but if other people want to use them then that's fine with me.

 

[DeletedUser1353]

Spoiler: 17k marble village

17k marble would be worth a little bit more than 1k gems "fairly" on the market. 496 tiles of space being taken up here.

Spoiler: 2k gem village

2k gems would be worth 32k marble "fairly" on the market. 232 tiles of space taken up (less than half of the marble village).

Still the gem village in this example is somehow smaller than the marble village, with tools, culture and population included. Btw, I put the workshops on making toolboxes (24h), if they´re making something more effective like bread the gem village gets even more effective compared to the marble one.

So my tip for new players and people accepting cross-trades, build a balanced village with all your boosted goods and ignore cross trades (where high-tier goods for low-tier goods are being offered).

I used the City Planner tool to do this, http://www.elvenarchitect.com/city/planner/ try it for yourself with different buildings if you want, also great for planning your village. Click the report button on the down right to see more details.

Link to marble village: http://www.elvenarchitect.com/city/planner/6e81f027acdc416ca355510377ef71f4/
Link to gem village: http://www.elvenarchitect.com/city/planner/37c0b93316444c658d57cfa268fc74e3/

 

[DeletedUser5754]

If you look at the elixir city you will see that the marble city needs to produce 32K, almost double the size of the marble city as it is now. So in space needed its 232 tiles vs almost 1000 tiles. And still people are trying to convince other players nothing is wrong when a 1k T3 : 16k T1 shows up as a two star trade. Why have I never seen a trade offering 16k T1 for 1k T3? Obviously these ‘fair’ trades are one direction only.


As a kid we played a lot of games at home and later dice and cart games in the pub, all games I remember had rules to ensure fun and fair play. I feel sorry for the kids where parents tell/told them that bending the rules or ignoring this bending is fine.


So CleverAngel777,you’re right and although people are blaming you for making assumptions the facts speak for itself. Its weird that people blaming you for making assumptions, assume you take this game to serious in the same post.

 

[DeletedUser7733]

I’ve read through all the comments that are related to Fair Trading, specifically current star rating of cross tier trades and it’s problems. 20 people got involved in the discussion, only 1 person says that they keep trading 2 star cross tier trades. The rest either don’t agree with cross trades or post their cross trades at 3 star (or offer more than demand). So 95% don’t use default rating of a fair trade.

So now it comes down to practicality. Making 1:1 as a default trade for all trades might make people to build just one tier and trade for the rest but then someone else might make the rest. I’m not really sure whether this solution will result in a game play that is intended by developers. And of course it will still allow for the same trades to be done as they are now just rating will be different to avoid arguments and confusion of new players.

Another option is to remove star rating, when we call something fair, we should be quite sure on it as it is subjective. The trades can be listed based on how much more is offered compared to how much is demanded.

I’m sure if we all put our heads together, this problem can be solved. Sorry, I don’t really believe in ‘shut up and put up’ option when it comes to problems that are there every day and are reducing enjoyment of the game and retention of players.

 

[DeletedUser7733]

I thought I’ll put my proposition up for discussion before I post it in Ideas and Suggestions thread so here it is. Just to clarify why I’m doing this, here are my reasons:

1. To remove new players confusion.
2. To reduce the amount of arguments (both supporters and opponents of cross trades will benefit out this).
3. And ultimately make the game more enjoyable for everyone

My suggestions:

1. To remove star rating – it’s really up to the players to decide what is fair and unfair trade by either accepting or ignoring the trade.
2. To list trades based on how much is offered compared to how much is demanded – this is hopefully a neutral way of listing trades. Trades that offer more than demand shouldn’t cause many arguments about fairness of them.
3. To adjust default valuation of cross tier trades so it gets used more often and reduces arguments. The way I see it, the main purpose of default valuation is to give new players an indication about how the developers intend new players to play. Advanced players usually use their own valuation. I try to keep in mind that it has to be a practical calculation so I used simplicity as much as I could. This is my analysis:

• Problems with current 16:4:1 ratio based on supplies and coins:

1. Not many players are actually using it.
2. It’s causing arguments.
3. New players get confused.
4. Not many players actually build their production based on this ratio.
5. It doesn’t work in both directions.

• Problems with 1:1:1 ratio based on space that is reasonable to consider as the most scarce resource in the game.

1. It might not result in the game play intended by the developers.
2. It will not reduce the amount of arguments.

So to come up with as neutral default valuation as I can, it might have to come down to a compromise. It still has to work for both direction trades.​

• Suggested ratio: 8:2:1

Benefits:

• It is much closer to how players would set up their city especially new players.
• It is tradable in both directions.

Problems:

• It’s still not a fair valuation but fairness might not be a realistic target.

4. To adjust the reasonable trade range accordingly with the same range both directions.​

I’ll appreciate any suggestions or corrections. It would be great if you let me know what you think so we can solve this once and for all

 

[Sir Derf]

Economics is complex. A bunch of thoughts without to much processing - it's late, and while I want to say some things, I'm not gonna spend the time to flesh them out at the moment.

For my perspective, I'm a mid-Chapter 5 player in F-World, with a current 26,990 score and 3798 rank, and am not part of a Fellowship.


First, your city in isolation - As you progress, the productive outputs unlocked aren't synchronized. It's all well and good to compare equal-level outputs to each other, but depending on the chapter, and where within the chapter, you don't always have equal upgrades available.

We can't compute comparisons at every step of the game, though.

Having said that, it might be more inclusive when comparing footprints to include both the direct footprint of the manufactory and the indirect footprint of residences that supply the required pop and something that produces culture. For example, an Elven level 15 Marble uses 6 squares, 356 pop and 87 culture. 356 pop is 7.6 squares of a level 15 residence, and 87 culture is 1.2 squares of Garden of Harmony (not sure if that's best ratio culture), for a total squares cost of 14.8 squares.

Next, there's your needs. At the moment, I have a roughly circular shell of scouted provinces, with 27 scouted. Looking at the negotiating costs for all those encounters, I don't have an even distribution. The total costs to negotiate everything is roughly double the amount in Planks, Silk and Gems vs their other Tier items.

Free Market - your city in the world

At the level I'm at, I can only trade with my local neighbors. I don't recognize the different city icons for humans, but for elves it looks like I have about 6 chapter 3 and 4 cities and one chapter 6 discovered. A player might not have many near parity trading partners, and you're not guaranteed to have a balanced spread of who has what boosts.


That's all for now.

 

[CrazyWizard]

The main issue with cross tier trades is the fact that there is a star system.
This star system steers people into ways that might not always be the best way.

It's not the first time I kicked a player out of a fellowhip because the game said 2 stars is fair, so as a big player I should just accept his cross tier down trades without a hitch. trying to explain didn't matter, the game said 2 stars is fair so ACCEPT NOW!!!.
*KICK!*

Remove these annoying stars and the problems are also gone.
then people are no longer steered to a certain direction and they have to make there own choice.

They have to figure out whats fair or not and this whole discussion wil stop.
Just put a limit of 1:4 or 1:16 on any type of trade.

Personally I prefer 1:4 to limit the disaster of misclicks which can wreck havoc to a newbie/middle type of player. and it seems some people target these players. these days even I with millions of goods are carefully clicking on the market because of it. tho for me it's extremely rare to experience it since all of my goods are in the 5-10m range.

Example:
Player a has 90K wood 115K steel and some marble.

He decides to pick from the market 3 trades 5K wood for 5K steel and clicks 3 times quickly.
Click->5K wood gained 5K steel lost
Click-> 5K wood gained 5K steel lost
Click-> 6300 elixer Gained, 100K wood lost
WTF!?

since the player has now 100K wood he is eligible for the 100K wood trade and since it's a "3 star" trade it will pop up and you'll misclick thinking you just clicked a 5K wood for 5K steel trade.

This issue is also a part of the "star" system.
And could be solved by removing it alltogether and use a different way to sort the list that avoids these kind of tricks.

These are also the trades that make people quit the game out of anger. and with that inno-games hurts themselves in the end.

 

[Killiak]

@CleverAngel777
I'd be very careful with statements about "most players" , or assuming the forum population is in any way a proper representation of the game's population. I doubt we are statistically significant

Also, you are NEVER going to attain fairness, especially so in a completely free market, where people have to decide by themselves what constitutes a good trade. People are in different places of the map as well, and will have to deal with different kinds of traders. It's going to be unfair, especially when some goods are in higher demand than others.

I'm afraid this will not stop any arguments either, since difference in opinion (as CrazyWizard describes) is going to occur every time people have a different opinion on what makes a good or acceptable trade.

 

[Lelanya]

The main issue with cross tier trades is the fact that there is a star system.
This star system steers people into ways that might not always be the best way.

It's not the first time I kicked a player out of a fellowhip because the game said 2 stars is fair, so as a big player I should just accept his cross tier down trades without a hitch. trying to explain didn't matter, the game said 2 stars is fair so ACCEPT NOW!!!.
*KICK!*

Remove these annoying stars and the problems are also gone.
then people are no longer steered to a certain direction and they have to make there own choice.

They have to figure out whats fair or not and this whole discussion wil stop.
Just put a limit of 1:4 or 1:16 on any type of trade.

Personally I prefer 1:4 to limit the disaster of misclicks which can wreck havoc to a newbie/middle type of player. and it seems some people target these players. these days even I with millions of goods are carefully clicking on the market because of it. tho for me it's extremely rare to experience it since all of my goods are in the 5-10m range.

Example:
Player a has 90K wood 115K steel and some marble.

He decides to pick from the market 3 trades 5K wood for 5K steel and clicks 3 times quickly.
Click->5K wood gained 5K steel lost
Click-> 5K wood gained 5K steel lost
Click-> 6300 elixer Gained, 100K wood lost
WTF!?

since the player has now 100K wood he is eligible for the 100K wood trade and since it's a "3 star" trade it will pop up and you'll misclick thinking you just clicked a 5K wood for 5K steel trade.

This issue is also a part of the "star" system.
And could be solved by removing it alltogether and use a different way to sort the list that avoids these kind of tricks.

These are also the trades that make people quit the game out of anger. and with that inno-games hurts themselves in the end.

Welcome back! You've been missed
Have you hit sentient goods yet? With decaying goods and widespread misinformation about 'saving' them in the Trader there is a whole new level of unfair trading out there.
Yes hon I have the rudest neighbour she builds only tier 3 and expects us all to supply her with the rest. I open the Trader and there are pages of her terrible trades. The sad part is, in Arendyll, I hit 'FS only' so many times to avoid them. It's the little players around me who suffer then cause I don't often see their trades.

 

[CrazyWizard]

I mainly play on the dutch server, only when there's a reason to I login on the other servers atm.
I even have an account now in gibberish (slovakian world) kinda fun to see if you can figure some stuff out like quests without understanding the text.

I have finished the amuni.

What I usually do is open the trader, then select my boosted goods.
It's quick, saves me to go trough a @%$load of crappy trades and I don't ignore my neigbours.

I can't ignore my neigbours and thankfully they dont ignore me as well.
I am producing in excess of 8m goods a week now, way more than my guild alone can sustain in trading.

Back to the KP hunt, stil need 100K or so KP to max out my wonders there.

 

[DeletedUser5754]

I'm afraid this will not stop any arguments either, since difference in opinion (as CrazyWizard describes) is going to occur every time people have a [B]different opinion on what makes a good or acceptable trade[/B].

Exactly, and to make sure people know what is a good trade they need to be informed correctly. Thats the point @CleverAngel777 is making. Rating 1000 T3 for 15999 T1 with 3*** (a very good trade) is not really helping with this. In my opinion, a lot of players are being mislead by this information. The differences in opinion are between those who see this and those trying to ignore it.

Why would inno try to make people believe the traderatings are fair? Te cityplans clearly shows you need 4 times the amount of space to produce the same value T1 as you do to produce T3. So people who believe the rating to be true will run out of space faster and this might 'motivate' players to buy some expansions. But this is just my opinion and I have no doubt others will not see the harm in this.

 

[Killiak]

Exactly, and to make sure people know what is a good trade they need to be informed correctly. Thats the point @CleverAngel777 is making. Rating 1000 T3 for 15999 T1 with 3*** (a very good trade) is not really helping with this. In my opinion, a lot of players are being mislead by this information. The differences in opinion are between those who see this and those trying to ignore it.

Please do not assume or state that other people are ignoring anything. In my opinion, such is not a very respectful manner to approach a difference of opinion, especially when both opinions are supported by arguments.
The star system might not be perfect, but as I have clearly stated before, you are not going to attain fairness or "good, acceptable" trades by just ditching the system, or by changing the ratio system.
A completely free market will not induce any kind of fairness either, and @CleverAngel777 also admits openly that a change in the ratio system is unlikely to induce this fairness either.

The problem will be persistent, no matter what you do. Any kind of trade system you put up will always, always, rely on players to keep their wits about them and pay attention. No matter stars, no stars, ratio's etc etc.

Why would inno try to make people believe the traderatings are fair? Te cityplans clearly shows you need 4 times the amount of space to produce the same value T1 as you do to produce T3. So people who believe the rating to be true will run out of space faster and this might 'motivate' players to buy some expansions. But this is just my opinion and I have no doubt others will not see the harm in this.

Is that what Inno is trying to do? I have yet to see a post or statement about it, so I doubt we can truly know what the designers had in mind when they set up this system. Such a thought is speculation, at best. Furthermore, it's indeed obvious by the city plans, but we are playing a City Builder whose premise (originally, anyway) was about building the city you want, the way you want, and adjusting to the needs of the game as it came along.

So why do we need to take people by the hand as if they are incapable of finding out for themselves how the game works? If anything, we only need to make it easier for people to find and learn about the numbers-game behind it all, which is something the Wiki, ElvenGems and Fellowships do a pretty good job of already.

People who are not interested in reading up on it will probably get frustrated and leave. How would that be any different with the current suggestion, as it still entails those same players reading up on things and understanding the numbers.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

 

[CrazyWizard]

Removing stars is a start, what is truly needed is to remake the entire trade system. this has already been admitted by timon in an old Q&A session.
Unfortunatly no one ever started it.

Why is removing the stars a start? will it remove unfair trades?
Most likely not, but most likely they also wont be 1:16 trades anymore. as people have to come up with there own trade values.
For newbies they probebly stick to 1:1 as they have no clue or close to it. and for more advanced players they start asking around and come up with the +-4:2:1 ratio.
This is what they removal could accomplish, have people think for themselves, there will always be unfair trades around but at least there not advertised by the game as "fair" or "good" like they are now.

Anyone in favour of the current star system should ask himself one simple question.
Would I trade tier 1 goods away at 16:1 or T2 at 4:1?

If the answer is no, then you've just admitted yourself that the current system is wrong and need repairs.

I have calculated it before on this and many other forums and the "fair" trade is somewhere around 4:2:1
The developers could easily rework the current factories at some point to reflect those numbers by simply adjusting the output of factories accordingly.
It would be minor adjustments that would not hurt the playerbase much.

The only thing we could do is keep complaining about it until the elvenar development team finally caves in and reworks the trade system as they have already acknowledged before to be flawed anyway.

 

[DeletedUser5754]

Please do not assume or state that other people are ignoring anything. In my opinion, such is not a very respectful manner to approach a difference of opinion, especially when both opinions are supported by arguments.
.

The only argument I've seen sofar is the math on space needed,supporting the opinion 1:16 is far from fair. We all know, space is the main issue in this game. I've not seen any argument to counter this, so either people supporting the current system have overlooked it or are disrespectfully ignoring it. So again, respectfully ofc., what argument is out there to support the opinion the current trading system is fair? And arguments like 'I like it as it is' combined with ' I have been accused of making cross-trades' or 'There is nothing wrong' combined with elvenstats info this player hardly produces T1, don't carry much weight.

I keep track of goods needed for tournaments and sofar all tournaments come up with the same number of goods needed in all three tiers. Almost a perfect 1:1:1.

 

[Killiak]

so either people supporting the current system have overlooked it or are disrespectfully ignoring it. So again, respectfully ofc., what argument is out there to support the opinion the current trading system is fair?

I wonder why you think that people who are criticising the points made are, in fact, supporting the current system or are saying it is fair. I certainly haven't done either. It would seem that you are dividing the discussion in two camps, making a lot of assumptions in the process. Nice and easy in one's mind, I am sure.
At worst that's a strawman-esque discussion technique, but instead I will just assume you hadn't thought of the other option; people agree that it is unfair, but do not agree with the proposed solution. Want to try reading my posts again, with that in mind?

 

[DeletedUser5532]

If I missed this comment earlier, I apologise for repeating it.

I believe that the system of trades, and cross tier trades is set up purely on cost of tools used to produce, not on space to make the productions.

Is the system fair, well, I could bet if you asked 100 people, you could very well receive 100 differing answers. As the old adage goes, "something is only as valuable as what someone else is prepared to pay for it", what is fair to one, is not fair to another. As there is a huge human input to the trades, there will always be these differences. There should be no stigma attached to someone taking advantage of supply and demand.

Personally I think 2:1 would be better than the current 4:1, as in my town, I have 3 of each boost, so I do not see any difference in cost, I look at all three tiers together, rather than individually.

Will Inno change things ? I very much doubt it. There is a system in place, and it works. Some like it, some don`t. If the system were to be changed, then there would still be some people who like it and some people who don`t. (So nothing overall will have changed, just the people who do not like something has changed)

If you see a trade you do not like, then simply scroll past and ignore it. However, if you are accidentally clicking on the wrong trade, then perhaps a look at how you operate you hand may be in order. Resist that clickety click feeling, and take the time to go one at a time.

Onwards and Upwards,, and remember, Its just a game, with pretend resources, in a pretend town, tucked away in the depths of the internet. Its all just numbers on a screen. So smile, enjoy your game, and be happy that others find enjoyment in different ways.