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Fair Trading

Pauly7

Magus
Just a general discussion point.... If this is a tired old topic feel free to tell me to shut up.

What do you consider to be ACTUAL fair trading? My opinion is that the game's star ratings only really make sense if it's trading within the same tier.

The game tells us that for a tier 1 to tier 3 trade, 16 times the amount is a 2 star trade, but for me 100 gems for 1600 marble is an awful trade deserving of zero stars. I know that people set their cities up differently, but I can't imagine a world in which you are producing 16 times as much marble as you are gems, thus making this trade actually a worthwhile proposition.

The thing I see every single day, which just makes me laugh, is people setting up trades for, let's say, 1,000 gems for 15,990 marble, which the game then says is a 3 star trade.

I have my own star rating in my head which works like this:

Tier 3 to tier 2 trading - 3 times = a two star trade. 2 times = a three star trade
Tier 3 to tier 1 trading - 5 times = a two star trade. 4 times = a three star trade

The same levels work for me trading back in the other direction which, of course, the game will call all of them zero star trades.

It isn't a complaint. I'm of the opinion that people can trade whatever they want at whatever level they want and good luck to them. So many people seem to base their trading, however, on what the game tells them is a fair trade, which for my money is way off.
 

Pauly7

Magus
I agree with that too. I produce more gems than crystal and more crystal than marble, so I really should be offering more gems than the marble I'm asking for... My self-imposed star ratings above are within the boundaries of what the game allows, plus I assume there are many players producing more tier 1 goods than tier 3, for all I know..... I can't imagine it being 16 times as many though. You'd probably need about 50 marble manufactories for every 1 gems, considering the tier 3 manufactories output that much more.
 

DeletedUser441

Guest
The game takes the cost of production of goods into account. See how many supplies and coins are required for every tier. Marble , steel and planks are far cheaper than crystal , scrolls and silk , which , in turn , are far cheaper than elixir , magic dust and gems.
 

Pauly7

Magus
The game takes the cost of production of goods into account. See how many supplies and coins are required for every tier. Marble , steel and planks are far cheaper than crystal , scrolls and silk , which , in turn , are far cheaper than elixir , magic dust and gems
OK, that's interesting. I hadn't heard to explained that way so it does make a kind of twisted sense.
the cost of supplies/coins is a tiny fraction of the actual production cost (which is better expressed as space x time x boost).
This, however, I still agree with.
(you can't produce steel 4 times faster than crystal)
If anything, it's the other way around, in terms of output over a given time.
There's really no reason for some resources to be worth 4 times more than others
Or 16 times!
 

sunrae

Soothsayer
I have explained this to fs members, that just because the game says its a 2 star trade its not actually a "fair" trade in real terms. Most understand this but we have recently lost a member because they could not understand why no one was taking their T3 to T1 trades. I do wish that Inno would review how they calculate the star rating.
 

Pauly7

Magus
I have explained this to fs members, that just because the game says its a 2 star trade its not actually a "fair" trade in real terms. Most understand this but we have recently lost a member because they could not understand why no one was taking their T3 to T1 trades. I do wish that Inno would review how they calculate the star rating.
I agree entirely, though I think the term "fair trade" should be ditched, because it's in the eye of the beholder really. Some fellowships ban cross-tier trading, which I don't understand as they are banning them due to a 1:16 ratio being "unfair". No one is making anyone take them. If I open a shop and start selling sandwiches for £100 each, no one would say it is unfair... just that it is a stupid shop and they won't buy from it. My cross-tier trades are pitched at the levels which normally persuade people to pick them up within the hour that I offer them.

It's all semantics, I guess.
 

Thezza

Spellcaster
I just don't see the problem here.
If my boosts are marble scrolls and gems, then I need t o trade these for steel. planks, crystal, silk, elixir and dust... therefore, regardless of whether I put up T1 to T2 or T3 to T1...whoever does not have marble, scrolls or elixir has the chance to pick up the trades for their own boosted stuff. So I offer some gems for silk, or crystal. or even planks or steel, then someone who is boosted in those, needs some gems can take the trade..QED
There are enough problems with this game without inventing non existent ones!!!
 

Pauly7

Magus
Yes, exactly that Nessie.

I can only assume that somewhere along the way when they developed this idea somebody decided that cities would be producing 4 times as much of a tier 1 product as a tier 2 product and 4 times as much of a tier 2 product as a tier 3 product.

The reality is that whilst everyone's set-up is different I don't think anyone produces at the levels listed above. In my case I am producing about 20% more gems than crystal and about 20% more crystal than marble. So, technically, if I personally was being fair then I would offer 1,000 gems for about 850 crystal or for about 700 marble.

In summary I think a "fair" trade should really be any ratio, between any product in any tier that is somewhere between 1:1 and 1:2 which, I would have thought, would probably take into account players' differences in set-up.
 

Thezza

Spellcaster
I put up hundreds of trades (and take hundreds) I place T1 to T1, T2 to T1 T3 to T1 and T2 to T2 and T3 to T2 and I have never had a trade left for more than a day, The higher ranked players in our FS help the newer members by accepting 'silly' trades. Been playing for well over a year now and have never thought this is a problem...the Tiers are worth what they are worth in comparison to each other and that is part of the game. You can play anyway you like, but you cant expect basic tenets of the game to change just because you don't like them and want to play a different way
 

Tonton-des-bois

Illusionist
I do also take cross-tier trades from my "little" fellows because at the begining, they produce more tier-3 than needed and can hardly produce all the tier-1 they need... but I can't do that on a daily basis because that unbalances fastly my own production... I produce 60k of each tier daily but if I take 4 times 1000xT3:16000xT1, all my daily T1 production is gone and I must stop my T2 & T3 factories one day long to rebalance all... meaning that during this day, I have no more goods to trade with "balanced" people... I can't have 16 times more T1 factories than T3 ones because of the room, the cost in coins and supplies is absolutely pointless...
And also, for upgrades or researches or negociating province, the game requires; averagely, equal amounts of T1, T2 & T3 so, everyone must balance its own production following this ratio...
 
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Pauly7

Magus
you cant expect basic tenets of the game to change just because you don't like them and want to play a different way
I don't really understand your point here in saying that gems having 16 times the value of marble is a "basic tenet of the game", which implies that it is one of the underlying principles of Elvenar, which makes no sense.

If you and your fellowship and your neighbours all co-exist sticking to the "basic tenet" that all tier 1 to tier 3 trades should be done at the ratio of 16:1 then you must all be producing 16 times as much T1 to T3 to make the system viable or otherwise the cross-trading is just very rare.

T3 manufactories output vastly more than T1 so if, as I suspect is more normal, people are producing roughly the same amount of all three of their boosted goods then even with the maximum 700% boost you would still be better off producing the non-boosted product than trading at 16 times... This is a basic tenet of mathematics.

The higher ranked players in our FS help the newer members by accepting 'silly' trades
This is an entirely different thing. We all do this, of course, but it isn't done because it makes sense, trading-wise. It's done to help out a fellow.
 

Thezza

Spellcaster
In Elvenar Gems just are worth 16 times planks, silk is worth 4 times less than elixir...just as in the real world diamond is far more valuable than quartz which is far more valuable than paper. You use your boosted goods to trade for non boosted..You could just trade same tier for same tier, then you wouldn't have your 'problem'
Either I am missing something here or I have been playing this all wrong!!!
 

Thezza

Spellcaster
Still scratching my head here...I use boosted marble to trade for steel and planks, I use boosted crystal to trade for steel planks silk and scrolls and use boosted elixir to trade for steel planks scrolls silk gems and dust. Always make them 3 star (not just by a few either) And never, ever had a problem
 

Pauly7

Magus
If people take your cross-tier trades then it stands to reason that you are setting the trade up at a level which is compatible with whoever is buying them. So, if you are trading T3 - T1 at 16 times, then the people buying off you must be producing considerably more of the T1 product than the T3. I do a lot of cross-tier trading between 4 and 5 times for T3-T1 and between 2 and 3 times for T3-T2, but I assume that only works for me because those people accepting the trades do, in fact, produce a lot more of their T1 goods. If it was back the other way, I would never accept those same trades.

The numbers can be skewed, as far as someone is concerned, by the fact that the T1 product they are trading is no doubt boosted by up to 700%. I think that boosts, though, can reasonably be left out of the equation because we all have boosts and that sets up the premise for trading in the first place, i.e. you may trade marble for steel at 1:1, safe in the knowledge that others are also doing the same with their boosted goods.

The other factor to consider is whether there is a tangiable reason why T3 goods should be worth more. To a point there is, because catering tournament encounters generally costs more of the T1 goods than it does of the T3. However, I have recently started taking note of the amount that it costs to negotiate regular province encounters and certainly at the level I am at there seems to be an equal amount used of each tier. In terms of the cost of buying and upgrading buildings it seems to be fairly even between each tier as well. This all means that I can accept T3 goods being viewed as slightly more valuable.

You compared it to the real life notion of diamonds being worth more than quartz, etc. Something like this is not a fair comparison, however, because diamonds are valuable either for illogical reasons (i.e. they're pretty to look at, etc) or for their industrial uses based on their hardness. It is also due to their comparitive rarity. Of course we can't compare either of the first two things to Elvenar and we have also established that T3 goods are no more rare than the others.
 

sunrae

Soothsayer
When I put my comment on I placed the word fair in inverted commas:) perhaps the word attractive, or appealing would have been better. When someone places a trade for 100 elixir for 16000 marble and no one, fellows or neighbours, takes it and its left hanging for days surely instead of complaining then the person should review the trade. In an open market anything goes it's true, and if your trades are taken then great, if not as was the case with our fellow, then making the trade more attractive is the best option. Small cities do have different needs than large ones in that T1 good are needed in comparatively large quantities but only produced by small factories. As the factories are upgraded then less are needed to produce enough quantities. I do think the majority of people (from experience of playing 2 years) consider the exampled trade as not a "good" trade and will only take it if doing a fellow a favour when they have hope of recouping it back at a later time. I have a woodelves city on W which has 3 plank factories and produces enough for my and my fellows needs. On F where we have only just started I have 10 planks and even with spells continually struggle to provide enough. I don't like to take such trades as the cost is just to high, and although the star system says they are fair, it certainly in real terms does not feel like it.;)
 

Timneh

Artisan
Elvenar are the ones that have stated that T1 goods cost a certain amount to make and T2 goods cost 4 times that price to make, T3 goods are 4 times the price of T2 goods to make and they are therefore 16 times the price of T1 but all that is really irrelevant when it comes to what is a fair or unfair trade. The one person that chooses whether a trade is fair or not is the person that accepts the trade. If a player takes a trade that is i.e. 100 planks in exchange for 100 gems then that player must think that trade was fair or they would not have taken it. That is the way i see it anyway.
 

DeletedUser1772

Guest
At some point in the past I went calculating the time needed to produce 4x | 16x of the lower tier in exchange for the 'fair' price of the higher one. (What can I say, I have no life. :D )

I don't remember the exact numbers, but it came to something around 30x times longer production of T1 for the 1/4th of the T2 amount. And around 60x longer production of T1 for the 1/16th of the T3 amount. And this is why we don't like cross tier trades when asking for a lower tier - just takes un-proportionally longer production times. I have no problem taking trades when lower tier is offered - it is their loss.

N.B. In my FS we help smaller players with so called 'crazy trades'. We offer them 1:4 goods per tier, cycling through the goods (per tier) and that stocks them up super fast, without 'fair' cross tier trading.
 
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DeletedUser441

Guest
I don't understand how you've worked out the "30 x longer production of T1 for 1/4th of the T2" or "60 x longer production of T1 for 1/16th of the T3 amount".
I produce more T1 in 3 hours than T2 & T3 but the levels are 23 for T1 and 19 for T2 & T3. My T2 & T3 production levels are the same for boosted goods which have the same boost level. The difference is the cost in coins and supplies needed to produce them.

The way I read what you've written is you need 30 x T1 productions to get the equivalent of 1/4 of T2 , so T1 x 120 = T2 :confused:
 

DeletedUser1772

Guest
@ Brienne.
I was calculating with the same level of all factories. And since different level factories give different production times, the numbers I listed were the average production times per all levels, up to the chapter I was in at the time of making the calculation (I believe it to be Orcs). Finally, I was also taking into account production per square, as different tiers | levels require factories of different sizes.

And you are mixing up the times (30x | 60x) and amounts (4x | 16x).

Damn me for deleting that Excel file.................... :oops:
 
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DeletedUser441

Guest
And I thought that taking the time to work out cost of production using just coins and supplies was excessive. ;) I bow to your diligence and patience :), though I'll have to take your word for your numbers as I do not wish to do the calculations myself.
I post only trades of 1 : 1 now , so all is fair to everyone as I trade same tier goods , though I will sometimes accept 2 star trades across tiers to help out beginners.
 
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