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Dwarven Armorers

CrazyWizard

Shaman
1. Who has ever - I mean, literally ever - spent [a lot] of money AND time taking any gaming company to court and thus PROVING whether the stated odds given in any game - when it comes to calls to any RNG they may or may not be using - are factually correct? And so, who would know the answer to this question? And how?

2. The Spire was introduced almost three years ago, and substantially revised in terms of individual rewards around a year later. Team-based rewards were also substantially changed as a later and/or parallel alteration - I can't remember which it was. And as with almost everything else in this game, it is very probable that minor 'silent' adjustments were made before, and/or have been made after, those two publicly announced major changes. I closely observe the Spire's behaviour each week, and it is actually very far from random. In fact, the more minor adjustments are quite visible, even if [obviously] slight in degree, being minor, and appear to involve everything from the level of randomness and/or typical composition of Enemy Squad types - this varies noticeably from week to week - to the probability of winning specific items, particularly Spell Fragments (of which those who did not win the overly large amounts available during the Spire's first year - i.e. before the amounts were greatly reduced - will be slightly short each week (even according to the Spire's given odds of winning them, although I personally fall much shorter).

3. During pre-Guest Race Spire 2-Stage [Silver] finishes, which I attained almost every week of its first 1½ years, with rarer Gold finishes maybe once per 6-8 weeks during that time, I won, on average, 2-3 DAs per month. Obviously never enough even to use one per week, and of course therefore not enough to build any stockpile at all. I kept records of what I won during that first year, but have now deleted them - they ran to many pages of hand-typed text, and I don't keep all of my Elvenar records forever... I'm not THAT boring - nor that bored, yet!

4. During post-Guest Race Spire 2-Stage [Silver] finishes, which I have attained almost every week of its second 1½ years, to date, with increasing numbers of Gold results (around a year at one Gold per 4-6 weeks, then three months at one Gold per month, rising steadily to now [previous six weeks] one Gold per week), I have won less than half as many DAs, on a consistently repeating basis. Records kept for first six months.

If the above has nothing to do with the underlying RNG odds - which, again, none of us can see; what we see is plain text stating that the % chances are X, Y, and Z %, not the actual RNG itself in operation - then I would imagine that the odds in favour of my maintaining two such consistently different DA averages must be astronomically low, considering the extremely obvious parallel with the major difference between the two very different levels of 'DA-luck', if it can be called that, which is, of course, the single factor of being either pre- or post-Guest Race level.

Conclusion : Unless I am seeing an absolutely extraordinary RNG pattern - which I doubt I am, over such a long time, and over so many Silver+ Spire attempts - there is genuinely far less chance of winning a DA once one enters the Guest Races.

If anyone can demonstrate that the written text stating % chances of winning anything at all in this game are exactly equal to the % chances used by Inno's RNG software, I would love to know how to emulate such a feat. I myself am doubtful of this being true - and I believe the same of MANY of the RNG-based mobile games which I have also played, and in which I have ALSO seen extremely unlikely events repeatedly occurring, at % rates which do not accord, long-term, with those publicly stated in that game, whether the discrepancy is in my own favour or not.

The one factor which appears to be common to all such RNG-related 'mysteriously inaccurate stated odds' is whether or not the player is new to the game (by that particular game's standards of timescale), in which case their results almost always tend to be overly 'fortunate'.

This may all be pure chance. That's the beauty of it, isn't it? Whatever we may say - the answer will always be: "RNG gonna RNG!" Yes. OK then.

How on earth did you come to the conlusion DA is different depending on chapter?
As far as I know you still get the same prizes, it's just that the buildings give different rewards. mama sawmill gives somthing else than mana.

As far as checking numbers I do not even look at the percantages, what I do is I note down my results, as I have done before for almost 2 years. recently I started it again as my game has changed and I need to find a new balance. it will take a while before it settles again.
Part of this is counting buildings. it "looks like" that they drop a little less these days but at the other hand sips and free diamonds can also increase the building drops.
But this drop might also be a RNG fluctuation, I surely got way less mage multipliers for many months, but recently there dropping like flies.
So it's really difficult to make a a judgement even if you grab a 6 months period.

At some point I also got no DA for many months.
But looking at the spire drops since it's introduction, DA seems to drop once every 2 weeks on average on the very long term.
and I have heared similar results from others. this assumes you get to the top of the spire every single week. not just for the chance there but also for more gold chests.

I have no reason to doubt (tin foil hat/conpiracy theory) innogames is cheating with the numbers they publish, why would they?
 

Herodite

Forum mod extraordinaire
Elvenar Team
@Killiak Oh Gosh if I could I would!! :D
 

Skallywag

Spellcaster
Disclaimer - I type this message enjoying the warm satisfaction of having just won a DA. I can't say I've ever recorded my winnings, but it does seem like the supply of DA's has diminished. So too have the Moonstone Library set buildings. Is it possible that chests have changed, and there's legitimately different odds now of winning a DA?

I'm skeptical that the developers are using a modified random number generator. That would be a significant effort, but for what purpose?

Meaningless subjective observation -- one of our fellowship members is reporting receiving DA's in abundance, and he's finished all chapters.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
Disclaimer - I type this message enjoying the warm satisfaction of having just won a DA. I can't say I've ever recorded my winnings, but it does seem like the supply of DA's has diminished. So too have the Moonstone Library set buildings. Is it possible that chests have changed, and there's legitimately different odds now of winning a DA?

I'm skeptical that the developers are using a modified random number generator. That would be a significant effort, but for what purpose?

Meaningless subjective observation -- one of our fellowship members is reporting receiving DA's in abundance, and he's finished all chapters.
The numbers for DA are 100% the same as at the start of the spire.

Moonstone set items got replaced with different prizes.
 

schadenfreude

Enchanter
Since I haven't really used them on this server, I can break down how many I have in each chapter for a totally unscientific study. I chapter relatively slowly. Prob over a month per chapter. I've also climbed to the top of Spire since chap 3. It looks like 38 is how many I have in my other city. I did started using them over there on occasion, hence they only go back to woodelves. I have 58 here. looks like dwarf was a good chapter!

chap 4: 3
chap 5: 2
chap 6 (dwarf): 17
chap 7 (fairies): 8
chap 8 (orc): 1
chap 9 (woodelves): 5
chap 10 (s&d): 7
chap 11 (halfling): 11
chap 12 (elementals): 1 <-- current chapter, just started.
----------------
city 1 total: 58

chap 9 (woodelves): 8
chap 10 (s&d): 9
chap 11 (halfling): 4
chap 12 (elementals): 6
chap 13 (amuni): 8
chap 14 (constructs): 3
--------------------------
city 2 total: 38

1657129162891.png
 
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Jake65

Sage
Since I haven't really used them on this server, I can break down how many I have in each chapter for a totally unscientific study. I chapter relatively slowly. Prob over a month per chapter. I've also climbed to the top of Spire since chap 3. It looks like 38 is how many I have in my other city. I did started using them over there on occasion, hence they only go back to woodelves. I have 58 here. looks like dwarf was a good chapter!

chap 4: 3
chap 5: 2
chap 6 (dwarf): 17
chap 7 (fairies): 8
chap 8 (orc): 1
chap 9 (woodelves): 5
chap 10 (s&d): 7
chap 11 (halfling): 11
chap 12 (elementals): 1 <-- current chapter, just started.
----------------
city 1 total: 58

chap 9 (woodelves): 8
chap 10 (s&d): 9
chap 11 (halfling): 4
chap 12 (elementals): 6
chap 13 (amuni): 8
chap 14 (constructs): 3
--------------------------
city 2 total: 38

View attachment 6403
This is really interesting, thanks.
Looking at city 1 from 7-12 and city 2 from 9-14 there's a similar pattern if you were to graph it.
Except for the Orcs chapter of course, but we know they mess up everything :D
 

SkyRider99

Mentor
Disclaimer - I type this message enjoying the warm satisfaction of having just won a DA. I can't say I've ever recorded my winnings, but it does seem like the supply of DA's has diminished. So too have the Moonstone Library set buildings. Is it possible that chests have changed, and there's legitimately different odds now of winning a DA?

I'm skeptical that the developers are using a modified random number generator. That would be a significant effort, but for what purpose?

Meaningless subjective observation -- one of our fellowship members is reporting receiving DA's in abundance, and he's finished all chapters.
Interesting to hear. I have also seen an extended absence of DAs. And similar to yourself @Skallywag I have others in my FS who regularly get DAs. I am in the second half of Ch XIX and they are in earlier chapters.

Is this perhaps an unholy alliance between RNG and CAL? :rolleyes:
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
Since I haven't really used them on this server, I can break down how many I have in each chapter for a totally unscientific study. I chapter relatively slowly. Prob over a month per chapter. I've also climbed to the top of Spire since chap 3. It looks like 38 is how many I have in my other city. I did started using them over there on occasion, hence they only go back to woodelves. I have 58 here. looks like dwarf was a good chapter!

chap 4: 3
chap 5: 2
chap 6 (dwarf): 17
chap 7 (fairies): 8
chap 8 (orc): 1
chap 9 (woodelves): 5
chap 10 (s&d): 7
chap 11 (halfling): 11
chap 12 (elementals): 1 <-- current chapter, just started.
----------------
city 1 total: 58

chap 9 (woodelves): 8
chap 10 (s&d): 9
chap 11 (halfling): 4
chap 12 (elementals): 6
chap 13 (amuni): 8
chap 14 (constructs): 3
--------------------------
city 2 total: 38

View attachment 6403
Thanks for sharing,

This is why I mean you need stock and look at the long time prospect.
You got many in the Dwarven chapter (insane btw) and none at orcs. now assume you use what you get and you only look x weeks ahead. then you get used to this "insane influx" of DA. and to your perception thats the standard.
but then when you hit the orcs you get a rude awakening and you feel you are getting screwed all over. RNG, RNG, RNG sucks!

You really feel the RNG then, but if you had used them more conserative, then the crappy RNG period of the orcs was covered by the amazing period of the dwarves and it all evens out.

I once to had a drought of several months and my stock simply carries me trough that period untill it rained DA again. I went form like 13 to 1 DA and I use 1 every 2 weeks.
 

schadenfreude

Enchanter
My stockpile of expiring buff buildings is even bigger. What RNG drought? :D;)
 

Laurelin

Sorcerer
How on earth did you come to the conlusion DA is different depending on chapter?
@CrazyWizard : While I'm aware that you prefer to skip through my long posts, the answer to this question is actually given in my own previous post - the reason why my posts can be so long and elaborate is because I do try fully to justify myself. Still, just to re-state: I drew that conclusion from my own personal experience, which, combined with further info-gathering and analysis as required, often informs my opinions, as I assume is true of most of us?

Also, and for clarity, since I didn't state that I've seen more/fewer DAs "depending on Chapter", my own experience was/is that I saw around twice as many DAs in my own Crafting rotation when I was pre-Guest Race than I've seen post-Guest Race; I haven't seen a per-Chapter difference.

And while I'm on the subject of my own long Forum posts :

@Herodite @anonglitch : You mean there are limits to your powers?! Well, that's no fun! - after all, back in the 1990s, when I myself was a Microsoft Network BBS [Forum] mod and chatroom host, my colleagues and I were able not only to create, edit, and delete posts - no, entire Forums - no, the very Servers on which they resided - no, actually, the Forum users themselves; but more even than that, we could also travel faster than Light, split atoms with our minds, and stop Time - all while walking on water... ;)

I'd have thought mod tools, like most other types of online tech, would only have improved since those Days of Yore, but not so, it seems? :D

The above silliness aside, though: I've been wondering about the actual meaning of @Killiak's comment, above, ever since I first read it... and while I'm still undecided on that, there certainly seems to be a broad consensus between at least three Forum regulars [or maybe five, counting 'Likes'? - and perhaps more, if silent 'lurkers' are also factored in] as to the non-desirability in this particular arena of Yours Truly's lengthy rhetorical musings, so I think I'll just invoke my own rusty but still serviceable Olde Worlde [self-]Moderating Powers - and make my own rhetoric disappear, henceforth.

With apologies to all those whose time I've wasted and/or whose patience I've tried... it was fun [for me, if not so much for others?] while it lasted!
 
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Laurelin

Sorcerer
Is this perhaps an unholy alliance between RNG and CAL?
@SkyRider99 : You may be closer to a possible explanation here than you [? may have] intended - assuming you aren't just joking, that is.

After all, nobody disputes that Inno, and other software companies such as Google (ref. their Chrome browser in particular), use silent A/B testing - meaning that not all users' software versions are identical at any given time. Elvenar's ongoing early-game changes are an example of this.

Second example : in another online game, the largest, most complicated, and most prestigious in-game feature was silently tested using introduction, for a period of three months, to only around half of the playerbase. This was apparent because (a) in many cases, members of the same in-game groups were not all provided with the new feature during testing (including my own group); and (b) many players discussed the differences they saw via Facebook etc. The feature was later permanently extended to all players with no comment from the game company at any point.

On a related note, in that same game some otherwise identical paid-for 'offers/packages' are routinely priced differently for different players, with evidence of this also available via screenshots, player discussions, third-party websites, etc. The fact that only some of Elvenar's players receive Inno's 100% and/or 200% 'extra free' Diamonds offers could be seen as a similar type of inter-player discrepancy which, again, is not in dispute.

I have no reason to doubt (tin foil hat/conpiracy theory) innogames is cheating with the numbers they publish, why would they?
@CrazyWizard : Considering my points above, there seems no need to resort to conspiracy theories to explain why there MIGHT be other factors than RNG alone influencing whether or not some players, some or all of the time, may see fewer DAs, Pet Foods, and/or similar non-standard items.
 
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Alcaro

Necromancer
@Herodite @anonglitch : You mean there are limits to your powers?! Well, that's no fun! - after all, back in the 1990s, when I myself was a Microsoft Network BBS [Forum] mod and chatroom host, my colleagues and I were able not only to create, edit, and delete posts - no, entire Forums - no, the very Servers on which they resided - no, actually, the Forum users themselves; but more even than that, we could also travel faster than Light, split atoms with our minds, and stop Time - all while walking on water... ;)
You are simply adorable (beside giving us good opinions and accurate insides) and at the last part of the quoted text, I really laughed out (very) loud! :D :D
No matter what other say, pls keep your posts as you did until now. I always like to read them all. :)
 

Laurelin

Sorcerer
Ah, but it's all in Laurelin Lite's NEW and IMPROVED Forum Signature, don't you know... 97.5% may well be a lot even by Elvenar's RNG standards, but it does still leave that all-important 2.5% for those times when conciseness, no matter how admirable it may be, just won't cut it... ;)

Also : thank you, @Alcaro, really. And if I've made at least one person smile today, or even laugh (!), then : mission complete - certainly for now!

:)
 

Jake65

Sage
What Alcaro said :)
Laurelin Lite can serve as an appetizer but Laurelin Long is appreciated from my side.
 

Laurelin

Sorcerer
God save us if we ever see Laurelin Loquacious.
Heh... there are a couple of Professors of Philosophy & Theology who are still - perhaps? - shuddering in horror when they recall those ancient days when the rarely seen but truly terrifying, although now happily near-extinct, L. Loquax pounced on them without warning - or mercy... :D
 
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