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Please Nerf multi-Bears/Phoenix stackability, not fair for the game.

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JollyElf

Soothsayer
1633160649209.png
The actual imbalance issue is not just with his bigger city, (CAL and so on. )
According to crazy wiz, younger cities (like his own example), can beat every one of his bigger cities hands down.
That’s the bigger imbalance. A bigger picture of the issue…
 

DeletedUser501

Enchanter
Please say use them :) not abused :)
Problem is some people have paid huge amounts of money to get them.
how to differentiate those who had the foresight to play the event smartly and those who paid for them.
ps
And do I remember correctly, we were in same FS at some point of time. Your name sounds familiar.
The problem is not money. If you haven´t read my suggestions in past pages, and just recently the comment of Turing about this, the problem is not money, is InnoGames doesn´t allowing or giving the opportunity to other players to buy them as you once got that same opportunity in the past.
That´s the unfair thing here.
 

DeletedUser501

Enchanter
The actual imbalance issue is not just with his bigger city, (CAL and so on. )
According to crazy wiz, younger cities (like his own example), can beat every one of his bigger cities hands down.
That’s the bigger imbalance. A bigger picture of the issue…
No manner a 3 chapter city could beat a 16th chapter city. This I exposed it to C.Wizard in past conversations.
In order to demonstrate your claim, you should demonstrate that at least, in the tourney top 50 of every server there are at least 10% of players in the 3, 4, 5, 6 chapter, and at least 1 of them in the top 10 of all the servers.
 

FieryArien

Necromancer
@Far Reach Looks like a lot of comments from him, and even more specifying the above said by me.
I also don’t see CrazyWizard talking exclusively about research. From what I understood, his attempts to explain his point of view to you were around this (in my own simplified words):
- The research*expansions*wonderlevels formula is broken. Bad design. The whole concept needs rethinking.
- Especially the “research” and “expansions” part is bad, because those are irreversible decisions made by all pre-tournament-redesign players. (Wonders we can delete.)
- The Brown Bears also bring imbalance, but that’s in no way as significant as the formula itself. (Not that many people with multiple Bears; and also only a fraction of players actually are hardcore tournament players - the rest care maybe about blueprints, if even that.)
- Fixing “Brown Bears imbalance” wouldn’t make tournament more fair,
wouldn’t solve tournament problems. If anything, it would highlight even more the advantage the cities optimized for the new formula have.

Ok, it wasn’t that short simple. ;-) Hopefully not much was lost in the translation between many languages we use here. :)

As for my own experience: I’ve got a city (on DE server) with two Brown Bears. I almost never feed them *). When you don’t compete for the first place in tournament, there is just no reason to care about Brown Bears …

*) I’ll feed them today after I don’t know how long. And that’s because I was in our smaller fellowship for two weeks, helping with 10 chests. It made quite a dent in my troops reserves. ;-) And I’m now in a kind of transition period, looking for a new balance in production, because I’m switching to “2 tournaments and Spires with one set of boost buildings” model and it’s unfamiliar territory right now.
 

DeletedUser501

Enchanter
I also don’t see CrazyWizard talking exclusively about research. From what I understood, his attempts to explain his point of view to you were around this (in my own simplified words):

In the moment he adds research, he includes irretrievable and undoable penalty factors. Those exactly ones, are the ones I considered in my analysis above I didn´t considered other aspects like AWs levels because he never pointed them out as huge factors (which now we´re seeing is I believe yours and him main problem).
You asked me that you don´t remember him targeting only and especially Research, but research was not the only thing I considered, I also considered his expansions (normal expansions). The only thing I left behind in that analysis since he never pointed it out was his AWs levels (that could be at the same level as you and it could be be fixed if you want it that way) and premium expansions that has almost the weight as adding some more normal expansions to the formula.
 

JollyElf

Soothsayer
No manner a 3 chapter city could beat a 16th chapter city. This I exposed it to C.Wizard in past conversations.
In order to demonstrate your claim, you should demonstrate that at least, in the tourney top 50 of every server there are at least 10% of players in the 3, 4, 5, 6 chapter, and at least 1 of them in the top 10 of all the servers.
That’s like Inno’s ceo commenting that tourney formula doesn’t affect results ;p
that’s because they are not so obsessed with the game. They are not the 0.08% ;p
But eventually cities can - as craze wiz himself is building one such city
 

JollyElf

Soothsayer
The problem is not money. If you haven´t read my suggestions in past pages, and just recently the comment of Turing about this, the problem is not money, is InnoGames doesn´t allowing or giving the opportunity to other players to buy them as you once got that same opportunity in the past.
That´s the unfair thing here.
Then I got misdirected by the title. Reads nerf bears. Not add more.
nice addition to the 0.08%, still chapter 3 cities won’t change much, as many are not hardcore players. They just enjoy a nice game.
Again will be a minor difference as you know 95% of the troops are used in the last 5% of the provinces. Probably a extra bear will add a couple of more provinces to 6* (give or take a few)
 

JollyElf

Soothsayer
Scenarios of your own anecdotic experience.

Are valid since I exposed that the usage of the brown bears is available and dependent of Time Boost usage, not in the passive manner as Simia. So all the above is in less than those 12 hours. It is obvious Idk what someone would omit it.
Oh just pointing that comparing Simia with bears is not so simplistic as so much space, kp, seeds etc.,
Simia is great for people as it’s permanent. With long training queues, it allows casual gamers to login once a day.
bears depend on pet food availability and it’s effect is temporary. need 6+ logins per day for crafting. (12 logins - to start a craft and collect before next timer)
also big imbalance for people who CAN only login only once per day ;p
As a true communist, how to even the playing fields.
probabaly nerf everyone to login once a day ;p
(Just kidding. Tired of the nerf threads)
 

Pauly7

Magus
Question is - Does Inno care about any of this? I suspect not. They will have counted how many people own more than one brown bear... I suspect it's about 0.01% of current active players... and they decide that isn't worth their time to do anything about. They will just ride it out, knowing that the percentage will diminish further anyway.

It's a similar concept to the tournament formula. They know it's all wrong. They know they messed up. However they will continue to be unwilling to admit it or do anything about it because the percentage of players who are actually affected negatively is very small.
 

JollyElf

Soothsayer
I also don’t see CrazyWizard talking exclusively about research. From what I understood, his attempts to explain his point of view to you were around this (in my own simplified words):
Thanks for summarising again. The wheel has turned a few times :)
 

JollyElf

Soothsayer
Question is - Does Inno care about any of this? I suspect not. They will have counted how many people own more than one brown bear... I suspect it's about 0.01% of current active players... and they decide that isn't worth their time to do anything about. They will just ride it out, knowing that the percentage will diminish further anyway.

It's a similar concept to the tournament formula. They know it's all wrong. They know they messed up. However they will continue to be unwilling to admit it or do anything about it because the percentage of players who are actually affected negatively is very small.
Agree with you :)
Honestly apart from a few of us, a huge faction just enjoy a nice entertainment.
im planning to join that group. Game is more fun being there, trust me buddy :)

Gtg for a bit. Some urgent work on the desk. Catch y’all later.

have fun in game and stay safe in real life friends. Best ahead folks
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
In the moment he adds research, he includes irretrievable and undoable penalty factors. Those exactly ones, are the ones I considered in my analysis above I didn´t considered other aspects like AWs levels because he never pointed them out as huge factors (which now we´re seeing is I believe yours and him main problem).
You asked me that you don´t remember him targeting only and especially Research, but research was not the only thing I considered, I also considered his expansions (normal expansions). The only thing I left behind in that analysis since he never pointed it out was his AWs levels (that could be at the same level as you and it could be be fixed if you want it that way) and premium expansions that has almost the weight as adding some more normal expansions to the formula.

See you are just not reading what I wrote, you blind obsession blinds you.
@FieryArien arian is 100% correct

I never said a chapter 3 account competes for the top spots, but a chapter 3 account does have the ability to build his city out over time to become a tournament killer. not at chapter 3, but when he/she reaches chapter 16.

Anyone who was around at the time bears where released and got multiple of them, cannot undo the negative impact the formula has on there town.
Any town who did not reach those stages CAN adjust to the new rules. as you yourself did.
This gives an advantage that no amount of brow bears can fix. NO AMOUNT OF BEARS CAN FIX!!!!!!!!

if you build a chapter 16 account on a dime, you will be the unbeatable tournament champion even with 0 bears
 

Far Reach

Conjurer
Again will be a minor difference as you know 95% of the troops are used in the last 5% of the provinces. Probably a extra bear will add a couple of more provinces to 6* (give or take a few)

This isn't true for competitive tournament players. The relative size of the armies changes only very slowly past province 30 or so, and the average troop cost is approximated by a fixed multiple of n. For high scorers, a 50% increase in available troops roughly corresponds to a 25% increase in score.

More generally, the tournament formula doesn't really work for high scorers (since expansions and most AW levels are almost irrelevant, and other important factors such as bears are not included). There would actually be a case to dramatically changing or abandoning the formula past (say) province 30. Alternatively Inno could introduce some new and original difficulty mechanic at this point.
 

Heymrdiedier

Enchanter
I can´t believe you´re defending this until the end. Well, time to take that down all this nonsense once and for all.

If we follow MinMax formula of the impact of what every single research dependent node (obligatory researches) affects your overall tournament performance, it gets that every obligatory node penalize your tournament (making yours and enemy squad size bigger) by 0.45%. So in the new tournament system and depending of how many obligatory nodes in the research tree does exists, the penalty per whole chapters must be as the following:

View attachment 5819
View attachment 5820


  • So in this case a player like me (ELF) that is camped in the very first node of the 16th chapter would get a penalty summation percentage of: +1%, +1%, +2%, +3%, +3%, +4%, +5%, +6%, +6%, +7%, +8%, +9%,+10%, +11%, +0.45% = 76.45% and/or a value of M of 382 in research penalty.
  • A player like CrazyWizard (ELF), that, according to him, he´s camped at the beginning of the 17th chapter would get a penalty summation percentage of: +1%, +1%, +2%, +3%, +3%, +4%, +5%, +6%, +6%, +7%, +8%, +9%,+10%, +11%, +12% +0.45% = 88.45% and/or a value of M of 411 in research penalty.
Now that we know how much the penalty in tournament for our respective chapter progression is calculated, let´s go forward to what this means in terms of unit squad size in tournament.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  • According to the actual "City Advancement Level Model" (CAL Model), the tournament formula to calculate an accurated tournament penalty to the squad size (yours and enemy one) and cattering costs also, per province in every round is:
View attachment 5822

So...

1.-DATA:
Dunkel (me) :
-Expansions =131
-Next Premium expansion cost = 4000
-Chapter =16
-Chapter progression = 1
-AWs levels = 315

I will get the following penalty reflected in my CAL:

View attachment 5824


2.- DATA:
CrazyWizard:

Note: I won´t consider neither AWs advancement nor the exact next premium expansion since we´re demonstrating the pure impact of research in the penalty for TSS (tournament squad size), following the assertion of CrazyWizard himself that Brown Bear stackability is not sufficient for the penalty that Research gives him.
I will also add everything that is respective to his actual chapter achievement (expansions in the research tree), everything else is available in every chapter of the game (AWs and Premium Expansionss)
-Expansions = 158
-Next.Premium Expansion = 4000 (the exactly same as me, I don´t know what´s his, but we´ll keep it up the same for the sake of the argument)
-Chapter= 17
-Chapter progression = 1
- AWs = 315 (the exactly same as me, obviously he´s got much more but in this case we´ll keep it up the same for the sake of the argument)

C.Wizard will get the following penalty reflected in his CAL:
View attachment 5825

A difference in CAL of : 10070 - 7312 = 2758 CAL !!!!!!
  • Once we´ve got the correct penalty that would reflect in troops (TSS) and cattering costs, the comparison between my tournament in province 45th (six stars) and CrazyWizard tournament in province 45th (six stars) is:
Dunkel one:
View attachment 5826

C.Wizard one:
View attachment 5827

127,454 - 92,552 = 34902 units

So: If we only count that he FOR SURE has a Simia Sapiens in the level of mine (he probably has it in the 35th level but I´m not adding AWs progress difference here) that would gives him +45% surplus of his normal training squad size, that he´s got at least the same Barracks and Merc Camp training speed as mine and better training speed from his Training Grounds than mine, HE WOULD ONLY HAS A DECRIMENT IN HIS TRAINING SQUAD SIZE OF THE VERY 18% PER PROVINCE IN COMPARISON OF MINE!!!

  • HE JUST NEED TO TRAIN 18% MORE EXTRA UNITS IN EVERY TOURNAMENT (AT LEAST 18% MORE) TO BE AT MY LEVEL IN MY SAME CHAPTER "ADVANTAGE CONDITION".
Units that can be obtained and regained so easily with the usage of 3 Brown Bears (imba bears) that gives him a surplus of +150% of his normal training size (simia already included in the training size surplus), and plenty time boosters of 5 hrs, assuming he use 33 of them every week (from what Spire gives you if you´re in a gold spire FS).

Quick Demonstration:

If I use in a whole tournament around 5,000,000 Rangers in 60 provinces x 6 stars, he would have to train only 900,000 more (5,900,000 in total) to reach the same 60 provinces x 6 stars like me.
If he got like me, a training speed of 138,415 rangers x 15:15 hrs with one single Brown Bear surplus, he with two more would be getting aprox. 210,000 Rangers x 15:15 hrs (maybe less due to his superior FA level). He would be reaching the 900,000 extra rangers in around 67 hrs (67/5 = 13.4 Booster of 5 hrs, ridiculous!), so the so big BIG and Enourmous Research advantage a player like me has over him, is just at 13-15 time booster of 5 hrs of distance. Beyond this, and once this is solved, all the TimeBoosters and/or units trained during the effect of the multiple bears, would give him a far BY MUCH superior advantage, no matter what.
Note: I remember one time he saying he got thousands of timers in his stock, so timers wouldn´t be any problem for him.


@CrazyWizard What you´re trying to make us think is that research penalty is far superior above everything else and so far superior in that aspect than what multiple brown bears with their stackable effect would give you as a advantage, assertion totally false.
Please stop defending the indefensible.
Nice calculation, but you deliberatly leave out AW and expansions? The multiplicative factor is huge you cant do that. Thats the same reasoning inno uses when they say AW doenst affect the cost much at all...

Im pretty sure Crazywizard isnt saying the research penalty is superior, when he talks about you having the ability to adapt to the new situation when others cant. He talks about those expansions placed. And about AW placed (although you can ofcourse destroy those). Not about the research at all. What he does say however is that doing the last chapters only hurts you in the end, so its better to stop in research.

I'm in the same boat as Crazywizard and we've compared our costs often. Both our minmax calcs are around 16.000-17.000 And we both stopped at the start of chapter 17 as well. That's more then double what you have in your own calc.

You can make plans to keep your city small. But once your city is huge, you can't undo that anymore. And with your small city you can still get 1 brown bear to max + a simia, im pretty confident that would gain you more then a huge city with 3 or more bears.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
Nice calculation, but you deliberatly leave out AW and expansions? The multiplicative factor is huge you cant do that. Thats the same reasoning inno uses when they say AW doenst affect the cost much at all...

Im pretty sure Crazywizard isnt saying the research penalty is superior, when he talks about you having the ability to adapt to the new situation when others cant. He talks about those expansions placed. And about AW placed (although you can ofcourse destroy those). Not about the research at all. What he does say however is that doing the last chapters only hurts you in the end, so its better to stop in research.

I'm in the same boat as Crazywizard and we've compared our costs often. Both our minmax calcs are around 16.000-17.000 And we both stopped at the start of chapter 17 as well. That's more then double what you have in your own calc.

You can make plans to keep your city small. But once your city is huge, you can't undo that anymore. And with your small city you can still get 1 brown bear to max + a simia, im pretty confident that would gain you more then a huge city with 3 or more bears.
Thanks for pointing out that post, I kinda ignored it after the first sentence.

Just the last chapter (18) if not mistaken the raise in unit production is about 5% (if not mistaken latr improved to 10%)
at the same time chapter 18 raises costs for research + expansions on average by ~30%

so just chapter 18 alone has a huge deficit and it only goes up each chapter.
and if not mistaken chapter 17 was 11% vs 20 somthing % or so.

And yes you cannot look at just 1 part of the formula, the numers I counted are based around what you expect a player in that chapter to have with normal play.
 

Stucon

Illusionist
HE JUST NEED TO TRAIN 18% MORE EXTRA UNITS IN EVERY TOURNAMENT (AT LEAST 18% MORE) TO BE AT MY LEVEL IN MY SAME CHAPTER "ADVANTAGE CONDITION".

1 Typing in upper case is considered shouting
2 18% is a HUGE (shouty) increase
3 Give it up. You are not winning people over with your arguments.
 

Far Reach

Conjurer
they are the most relevant for high scorers

Perhaps I phrased this badly. I was intending to say only that most AWs are pretty irrelevant to fighting in tournaments, and that those which help with catering are of little help to high scorers. The interview with Lukas (the relevant Inno project manager) in another thread says about the formula: "This is not to say, of course, that there will be no more adjustments. Over time, we will certainly continue to monitor tournaments in general and the cost formula in particular. For example, we currently see a possible weakness of the new system in the equal treatment of all ancient wonders. We certainly agree that some wonders are much more valuable for tournaments than others. The formula does not make this difference at the moment."

The effective difference (between wonders) is clearer for high scorers, since only a handful of AWs are worthwhile (from a tourney perspective) and the vast majority of hardcore tournament players will already have developed those to a decent level. The AW differentiation between players is thus primarily based on how many irrelevant AW levels the player has (e.g. my 35 levels of Throne of Wonders) whilst ignoring other factors (such as your multiple bears).
 

Hekata

Artisan
Nice analysis @DunkelSaturn.
Thinking about that, maybe a good idea would be to make the bears use a different type of pet food than everything else. If they limit that to one a week you can gain then all the extra bears don't matter.
Getting special pet food only for the brown bear once a week just to limit those who have multiple bears wouldn't be fair to those who have 1 bear and maybe want to feed it 2 or 3 times a week.
 
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