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Question tome of sercetes

Deleted User - 341074

Guest
Eventually, no.
It's a nice starting wonder when you can scout a few times per day, but it losses almost all value later in the game.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
is tome of secret worth keeping

That would depend on where in the game you are.
If you just started the game then yes, definitely the best AW for towns in the first few chapters!
At the very latest it becomes obsolete in chapter 15, when Magic Workshops finally become a useful source of supplies and AWs are not necessary to produce supplies anymore.
If I was to start a new town I would definitely build the ToS right away and either upgrade it to lvl 6 and then keep it until chapter 15 or just leave it at lvl 1 and sell it/rebuild it according to circumstances.
 

Wibbly Woo

Spellcaster
Mostly theory crafting:
One scout with Tome of Secrets is worth 2 days worth of Endless Excavation of equal level. If you can scout every two days it will be better than the EE as a supply source.

If you level the ToS up far enough (level 31+) it will generate 7 KPs a day: this is almost as good as the same space used for Carting Libraries but it doesn’t expire. That said, for KP efficiency it isn’t worth upgrading for KPs alone as it will never pay back the KPs invested. However, if it is already levelled the KPs might be an argument to keep it around.

Similarly, if you have it levelled up to a high level, it can contribute to other wonders which count wonder levels for their effects. This is a bad reason to level it up, but again might be an argument to keep it around if you have already levelled it up.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
Similarly, if you have it levelled up to a high level, it can contribute to other wonders which count wonder levels for their effects. This is a bad reason to level it up, but again might be an argument to keep it around if you have already levelled it up.

I agree with your assessment, I am personally a fan of the ToS for supply production in the early game.

The big downturn comes with this last point. It adds AW levels, which as you say has positive effects in the game (seed producttion etc not even mentioned yet), however the absolute killer for all non-military AWs is that AW levels now kill tourney scores. This is the one reason why it is not an AW that I would keep longer than necessary.
 

Wibbly Woo

Spellcaster
I agree with your assessment, I am personally a fan of the ToS for supply production in the early game.

The big downturn comes with this last point. It adds AW levels, which as you say has positive effects in the game (seed producttion etc not even mentioned yet), however the absolute killer for all non-military AWs is that AW levels now kill tourney scores. This is the one reason why it is not an AW that I would keep longer than necessary.

I can’t really talk about gameplay late game, hence acknowledging my thoughts are theory crafting.

I am curious about this killing tourney scores thing: is this going to be an issue for cities that aim for a 2k tourney score (hence pulling wait in a 10 chest fellowship) or is it more for those players competing for the acolades for doing 19 chests?

This strikes me as a significant play style difference to the value.
 

Far Reach

Conjurer
I am curious about this killing tourney scores thing: is this going to be an issue for cities that aim for a 2k tourney score (hence pulling wait in a 10 chest fellowship) or is it more for those players competing for the acolades for doing 19 chests?

Definitely the latter. A fully ranked up Tome of Secrets (ie level 35) will increase your tournament costs (troop losses and catering amounts) by up to 10%. (It is 10% if you have no other wonders and more like 7% if you have about 100 other wonder levels.) Having lots of high level wonders really hurts if you're trying to push to the very limit. For most players it isn't likely to be a particular issue though.
 

Pltrem

Seeker
That would depend on where in the game you are.
If you just started the game then yes, definitely the best AW for towns in the first few chapters!
At the very latest it becomes obsolete in chapter 15, when Magic Workshops finally become a useful source of supplies and AWs are not necessary to produce supplies anymore.
If I was to start a new town I would definitely build the ToS right away and either upgrade it to lvl 6 and then keep it until chapter 15 or just leave it at lvl 1 and sell it/rebuild it according to circumstances.
Hi i am at the end of the fairyies chapter
 

BlueBlou

Illusionist
Don’t know why you all focus on the tools from the ToS.. For me it was about the extra kp per day at the beginning of my Elvenar game. I played two cities in parallel. The one with a ToS and one without. After a few months, the one that had the ToS was a full chapter ahead of the other one.

Now, the kp from the ToS is insignificant compared to the kp that can be gotten from the tourneys and some culture buildings. Will I built it now if I were to start a game again? No.
 

Wibbly Woo

Spellcaster
@BlueBlou The reason for focusing on the supplies is that the KPs from the ToS are insignificant, and levelling it is never going to pay for itself in terms of KPs expended. As a pure KP source, the level 1 TOS is the only option worth building, and I suspect that for the space cost, there are better options to use that space to gain KPs.

As a supply source, on the other hand, it is easily comparable with the EE and other supply sources. In this role, it may also be worth upgrading to the point where it is worth keeping for the KPs.

Also, not wishing to be rude, but I doubt the ToS KPs were even slightly relevant in a chapter difference in progress over three months: it would be 90 KPs. The supplies, on the other hand, and the incentive to explore and hence complete more provinces, I suspect would have had a bigger impact.
 

Deleted User - 1759805

Guest
The reason for focusing on the supplies is that the KPs from the ToS are insignificant, and levelling it is never going to pay for itself in terms of KPs expended.
Not if someone is pushing. ToS might be a way to convert KP/AWKP in other accounts into straight up KPs in the master. Not an endorsement.
 

Pauly7

Magus
I am curious about this killing tourney scores thing: is this going to be an issue for cities that aim for a 2k tourney score (hence pulling wait in a 10 chest fellowship) or is it more for those players competing for the acolades for doing 19 chests?
Every Ancient Wonder level you have in your city contributes to the increase in tournament squad size, with a multiplying effect with the other contributing factors (i.e. expansions placed, research completed, highest production boost). All Ancient Wonders will make tournaments more difficult unless you are getting a direct worth from them being there. So, if your ToS is giving you X amount of supplies and you need those supplies in your life to make more troops or produce more goods to make your tournament scores higher, then it is worth having around. If there is an alternative method of gaining those supplies, then it is not.

Definitely the latter.
It doesn't matter whether you are a casual or competitive player, getting smaller scores or big scores. The effect is the same. The difference is that you may not notice this effect if you are not a competitive tournament player because the early provinces are easy enough to mask it. In either case, the same rule applies - if you are getting enough net worth out of what an AW is giving you, then go for it. If you are in a position where you are hoarding extra supplies, or off-loading them at the wholesaler, then the AW is hurting you.
 

Wibbly Woo

Spellcaster
Not if someone is pushing. ToS might be a way to convert KP/AWKP in other accounts into straight up KPs in the master. Not an endorsement.
I must admit I hadn’t considered the pushing angle, but that is against the rules anyway. I had discounted the converting AWKP spells into KPs idea as being not worth it, due to the massive inefficiency of it. That said, I could see some potential application of it in a partnership involving a city not advancing any further in the tech tree which I think would be legal so long as the mutual benefit is clear.

Again, I am not convinced this is actually a particularly efficient approach even ignoring the tournament impacts.

Every Ancient Wonder level you have in your city contributes to the increase in tournament squad size, with a multiplying effect with the other contributing factors (i.e. expansions placed, research completed, highest production boost). All Ancient Wonders will make tournaments more difficult unless you are getting a direct worth from them being there. So, if your ToS is giving you X amount of supplies and you need those supplies in your life to make more troops or produce more goods to make your tournament scores higher, then it is worth having around. If there is an alternative method of gaining those supplies, then it is not.


It doesn't matter whether you are a casual or competitive player, getting smaller scores or big scores. The effect is the same. The difference is that you may not notice this effect if you are not a competitive tournament player because the early provinces are easy enough to mask it. In either case, the same rule applies - if you are getting enough net worth out of what an AW is giving you, then go for it. If you are in a position where you are hoarding extra supplies, or off-loading them at the wholesaler, then the AW is hurting you.

The question of net worth is obviously the key here. The original point was that having a level 31 TOS would tank tournament performance. My question was aimed at does it make weekly 2k scores impossible, or is it more “you
will never top the board against someone without”. At this point i am not evaluating building it as a supply source, I am evaluating retaining it as a KP source.
 

Pauly7

Magus
The question of net worth is obviously the key here. The original point was that having a level 31 TOS would tank tournament performance. My question was aimed at does it make weekly 2k scores impossible, or is it more “you
will never top the board against someone without”. At this point i am not evaluating building it as a supply source, I am evaluating retaining it as a KP source.
Once you are at the stage where you have a level 31 ToS, nothing will make 2k tournament scores impossible... or even difficult. Like I say, the ease of the early provinces will happily mask any bad effect of Ancient Wonders - hence why so many people have no problem with the new tournament formula and are confused why others do.

It will have an effect though, sure. 31 AW levels has an impact, especially when multiplied with a sea of expansions. The apparent effect also depends on everything else that you have. If you have 300 total AW levels and you deleted a level 31 ToS, the difference may not look so huge. If that ToS was your only AW, at a fairly early stage of development, then in deleting it you would notice a marked difference. It may not have made those 2k tournament scores seem difficult, but you would notice the difference in resource use if it suddenly was not there.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
The question of net worth is obviously the key here. The original point was that having a level 31 TOS would tank tournament performance. My question was aimed at does it make weekly 2k scores impossible, or is it more “you
will never top the board against someone without”. At this point i am not evaluating building it as a supply source, I am evaluating retaining it as a KP source.

Nothing you can do makes 2k points impossible. 2k points is so easy that you cannot NOT do 2k if you actually want to do 2k. People that do less than 2k simply don´t care about tourneys, and that is a perfectly good reason. There is no law that says you have to care about tourneys, but it sure is not the game that forbids you to play any way you want (within limits, think about people that only log in once a week) and reach 2k tourney points.

So your question is wrong. Instead you should ask, does a lvl 31 ToS make it easier or harder to reach 2k. Then we can start discussing it :D I say it makes it harder. But as has been pointed out above it depends on various other factors. The easiest to explain factor would be: if the ToS is the only source of supplies in your city, you may have a tough time training troops after you sell it ;)
 
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