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Discussion Fellowship Adventures coming again - with changes!

Gargon667

Mentor
It might not have been very clear in my previous post, but I'm asserting that tourneys are not the limiting factor below 100k (or even below 150k). In the same way that a very high score will require MA diamond spending, and a willingness to destroy/rebuild a big part of ones city - I suggest that the use of time boosters for Witches Hats is essential too. I'd expect that the FWs which commit to all of these, will be the ones which do best.

That is where I disagree, tourneys are a very big factor, no, the biggest. Not the only one, but the biggest. Try and find any big FA scores on a normal 40k tourney? I doubt you´ll find anyone above even 50k FA points.

My analysis above (questioning that tourneys matter here) might well be wrong, but Swags experience last tourney doesn't (in itself) demonstrate this (since you didn't use time boosters for crafting spells). It might help the case (to reduce the requirement for hats) if you could give your own figures on how significant the tournaments are when each fellow commits a couple of hundred hours of boosts to crafting spells.

You can timeboost every badge (or other instant boost, except for marbles and ghost bottles), so it is silly to say the tourney is not the limiting factor, because we didn´t use time boosts. If you follow this reasoning there is NO limiting factor ever, because you could always use more instants to make more badges of every kind. And even if you would follow this logic, ghost bottles and marbles would become the limiting factor, so again the tourney would limit you in the end.
So forget about the time boosts and think about what is the limiting badge, after that you can start pushing boundaries by using time boosts. And we are not talking hundreds of hours, that is rather pointless. 100h makes 12.5 hats. If we wanted to get from our 80k to 150k points we would need roughly 10.000h. Add to that all the time boosts for VV badges (shall we say another 5000+h?). Sure possible, but do we really want that to be what an FA is about?
I´d rather have an FA where all the badges have a somewhat similar value. Timeboosting 1 or 2 badges wouldn´t be enough to win, timeboosting in general would be far less useful, because nobody has enough timeboosts to time boost everything lots. Same for pay2win. Instead it would be dependant on proper preparation and teamwork in your FS and how much effort you put into producing all badges at an equal rate. Instants would be only useful to smooth over imbalances.
 

Far Reach

Conjurer
Thanks for the explanations. I think that we'll just have to agree to disagree. To clarify a couple of points though:

You can timeboost every badge (or other instant boost, except for marbles and ghost bottles),

Indeed you can, but in almost all cases it isn't the most efficient option, (just as there is a big difference between the value in using diamonds for recipe flipping and buying badges).


100h makes 12.5 hats. If we wanted to get from our 80k to 150k points we would need roughly 10.000h. Add to that all the time boosts for VV badges (shall we say another 5000+h?). Sure possible, but do we really want that to be what an FA is about?

How many thousands of hours of time boosters does Swag use in a weekly tournament. My guess is at least least half of this entire FA requirement. A perfect Spire alone provides around 5000 hours of time boosts to the FW on a weekly basis, and rushing time boosts in the Academy can often return more than you consume (if you focus on crafting them).

I suspect that for many players (including myself), the bigger consideration is the diamonds needed to generate the corresponding 2000 Arcane Residue badges needed to get to 150k. I don't know exactly what that would cost, but assume something in the 50000 to 100000 diamonds range. Either that collectively needs to be won in the Spire (possible for a top FW, but it would certainly take longer than the time boosts), or it needs to be bought (which moves the FA towards the Play2Win model).
 

BlueBlou

Illusionist
All good and well, seems like the above are calculations for the ultimate FA score from teams that can do spire all the way to the top and can all do 30 provinces for 6 rounds in tourney. Reality for the better average fellowship is far from that. What is the situation where say all can do 10 provinces in tourney for 5 rounds and the team just can get a silver medal in the spire? These teams will struggle with the hats, the marbles and the ghosts as the quantities where you get lots of these are after province 10. I have to agree with Gargon667, doing well in tourneys is a big factor.
 

Laurelin

Sorcerer
All good and well, seems like the above are calculations for the ultimate FA score from teams that can do spire all the way to the top and can all do 30 provinces for 6 rounds in tourney. Reality for the better average fellowship is far from that. What is the situation where say all can do 10 provinces in tourney for 5 rounds and the team just can get a silver medal in the spire? These teams will struggle with the hats, the marbles and the ghosts as the quantities where you get lots of these are after province 10. I have to agree with Gargon667, doing well in tourneys is a big factor.
While it is academically interesting, indeed, to gain an insight into the new-style FA from the rarefied perspective of the most highly determined and competitive players and Fellowships, the reality is that most of us are very, very far from being in a similar position to those few ultra-dedicated individuals and groups. As a more 'average' player who is fortunate to belong to an excellent 10-Chest Fellowship, it is still the 'usual suspects' - Arcane Residue and Bracelets, plus to a lesser extent Blacksmiths' Guild and Farmer's Delight Badges - which remain the most difficult items, and in the shortest supply throughout the FA's duration, whether aiming for single-path completion or competitive full Map clearance and/or Pit Stages.

That said, it's true that Witch Hats (primarily) and also Elemental Marbles and Ghost Badges, too, seem to be proving a reasonably difficult type to earn, especially because it's very easy to simply forget to collect these while going through the Tournament and/or Spire (and the fault/'feature' whereby the 'Green Tick' showing Badge completion disappears as soon as another Badge is partially completed only exacerbates this problem).

Therefore, while the argument that Tournament/Spire completion ability may well be the ultimate limiting factor for the most high-performing FA Fellowships, especially those which are willing to spend many Time Boosters, other Resources, and/or Diamonds on [especially] Arcane Residue production, for most types of Fellowship the Arcane Residue Badge remains, overall, so difficult and expensive to produce that it is still the primary limiting factor, with Bracelets also still coming in as a close second for pretty much all [post-Guest Race] FS Members, not just myself (Ch. VIII).

For info, I am speaking with experience of completing [quite competitively, and to the Pit Stage] the new-style FA in two different but equally high-performing, dedicated 10-Chest Fellowships, with most Members completing enough Tourney and Spire Encounters to ensure that Hats, Marbles, and Ghosts, while certainly not the easiest of Badges, are plentiful enough to more than keep pace with Residue and Bracelet needs, with a fair percentage of players having at least a few of some or all of these left over after the FA ends - and with the potential for more to be earned, too, by those of us who are forgetful enough to fail to collect at least some of what we earn, as already mentioned above. I've yet to hear of anyone forgetting to collect Residue or Bracelets... quite the opposite, since most of us, in my experience, spend much time actually waiting for those two specific Badges to become collectable, one at a time, while all other Badges seem to build up in Inventory at moderate-to-speedy rates without any comparable effort.

In short: for non-élite Fellowships which do not finish the Spire and/or score very highly in Tournaments, Arcane Residue is the major limiting factor in the new-style FA, with Bracelets being the next (and very) significant limitation, with all other [non-Workshop] Badges, even the more difficult Tourney/Spire-related ones, being reduced to 'also-rans' which most players find [comparatively] easy to amass. This means that the FA has become, in essence, a contest as to which FS can produce the most Arcane Residue and/or Bracelets, although the comparative ease with which low-Chapter (I-V) Cities can produce Bracelets probably means that, for very young FSs, it will be Arcane Residue alone which is the primary limiting factor.

The new-style FA therefore appears to be noticeably unbalanced for the majority of 'average' Fellowships, and I agree with the many commentators who have already suggested the following solutions to this imbalance:
1. Reduce Arcane Residue requirements to 1 x VV [or, better, 1 x Crafted Item, to avoid the illusory but troublesome perception of 'wasting' VV] - and I would also suggest reducing the number of these MA Resource-intensive Badges required overall, especially in Map 3 and in the Pit Stages, and;
2. Either significantly [50%+] reduce the amount of T1 Goods required for Bracelets (and balance according to Manufactory level available, not just Chapter progress), or, ideally, alter the requirements to include ALL types of Goods (including Sentient Goods) and reduce the amounts required.

In my opinion, and as mentioned above, Blacksmiths' Guild and Farmer's Delight Badges are also far more difficult than most other Badges, and I would say that both of these (especially Farmer's Delight) need to have their requirements reduced if better FA balance is to be achieved, but while Arcane Residue and Bracelets are the overwhelmingly most significant limiting factor, these other two Badges are, at present, less of a priority.
 
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Sir Derf

Adept
If we talk theoretically nearly any score is possible with long enough planning. If you think you´ll run of ghost bottles, you just have to increase your FS tourney score from 200k to 300k etc there is no absolute limit. But the higher you go the more important the tourney becomes.

Yes. Yes, there is.

Most badges directly or indirectly rely on resources, which can be produced in unlimited quantities using Time Boosts. Time Boosts can be stockpiled to arbitrary amounts with pre-planning or purchased with diamonds through the Magic Academy.

There are two precursors that are not a resource.

Elemental Marbles need Relics. One way to get Relics is to solve Map encounters. Which require Scouted Provinces. And I think there are a finite number of scoutable Provinces on the map. But, since you can produce Relics in the MA, this possible limit doesn't matter

Ghost in the Bottle need 3 Spire or Tourney Encounters. These are limited. There are only 16*3=48 Encounters in a Spire and 40 Encounters in a Tourney. Currently, FAs overlap with 2 Spires and 1 Tourney, so are limited to 136 Encounters per fellow, or 45 Ghosts per Fellow, or 1,125 Ghosts per Fellowship. Appropriately timed, a FA could overlap with both 2 Spires and 2 Tourneys, so an upper limit exists of 176 Encounters/F, 58 Ghosts/F, 1,450 Ghosts/FS. At 5 Ghosts per round in the pit, that's a max with current timing of 225 Pit rounds (67.5k point) or a max with optimal timing of 290 Pit rounds (87k points). Adjust that with the appropriate points earned in the three Maps with however many Ghosts as you use, and there you go.


(Edit - Oops, reduce from 40 to 30 Tourney provinces, and multiply by 6 rounds. I leave the math as an exercise for the student.)
 

Deleted User - 341074

Guest
There are only 16*3=48 Encounters in a Spire and 40 Encounters in a Tourney.
(Edit - Oops, reduce from 40 to 30 Tourney provinces, and multiply by 6 rounds. I leave the math as an exercise for the student.)
Where do you get 30 tourney provinces from?
The last expansion is awarded for 525 provinces, and there are only 9 types so there are clearly many more than 50 of each for anyone in the late game.
I'm pretty sure I've seen players state that they have 700ish provinces cleared. which would be over 150 Ghosts for just that one player.
 

Sigyn

Spellcaster
Speaking as an Archmage of a average fellowship with 18 active players we have found the new FA badges\pathways much fairer and easier to acheive.
We have quite a few newer players and it was a real struggle before......this time around we achieved the 3 chests with a couple of days to spare allowing us to build up extra points in the pit.....even with our deputy out sick it means that members are far more willing to contribute than before esp. as the rewards are still mediocre and quite a few of us didn't need the extra upgrades for our owls.
 

Far Reach

Conjurer
Parts of the discussion about what a top Fellowship could achieve in the FA might be getting a little circular. A couple of people have also made the very pertinent point that it also isn't typical of most Fellowships, and we really should be seeking to balance the badges for the majority. A possible way of doing both, would be to balance the badge numbers required for the Map first [should any changes be needed], and then separately adjust the relative numbers of badges needed in the pit [which will mainly affect those FWs going for high rankings].

Speaking as an Archmage of a average fellowship with 18 active players we have found the new FA badges\pathways much fairer and easier to acheive.

This perspective (if typical of such fellowships) would suggest that no significant changes to the badges, or their requirements on the map,are needed. Other comments made by others above might indicate that we should reduce (for example) the pit requirement for Arcane Residue though. (Perhaps for 5 badges to 2 ?)


Where do you get 30 tourney provinces from?

To avoid confusion I'll briefly summarise the context of the relevant discussion.

Gargon667 made some very sensible suggestions about balancing the badges better (maker some easier and some harder). This was significantly influenced by the experience of his FW (Swagafythee) which consistently comes top in the FA on our server. I responded, questioning one aspect of the assessment of relative badge difficulty (which obviously affects balancing decisions). This led on to a further discussion about the current realistic potential for a top FW such as his. I used the figure of 30 completed tourneys provinces in one of these posts, since it is roughly what Swagafythee did in the last FA. [My calculation was the tourney gave 1500 ghosts to the FW which suffices for 1800 pit rounds - since one in six pits requires 5 ghosts - or 90k points. Adding in ghosts from the Spire pushes up the upper limit of FA points to 150k+. The tourney also gives Marble badges - and at a faster rate than ghosts.]

There was general agreement that a Fellowship needs to uses diamonds to flip Magic Academy recipes to be competitive at the top of the FA rankings. I estimated that Ghost in a Bottle badges would be the limiting factor for a top FW doing this, but not until 150k FA points or so. Gargon had previously suggested that Witch Hats would be the sticking point. We haven't got a complete consensus as yet.
 

Heymrdiedier

Enchanter
Im not sure I see the point in this discussion, but it made me wonder:
how much points did the max scoring Fellowship get in the last FA?
Is that already near 150K?
 

Silmaril

Community Manager
Elvenar Team
@SoggyShorts You seem to be quoting US servers here, please remember this is the EN Forum and try to keep the information pertinent to EN.
 

Deleted User - 341074

Guest
LoL, really? Could you elaborate, please? In what way would more information = bad ?

What is and isn't possible in the FA on any server is pertinent to every server because we all have the same badge requirements.
It's not like the recipe on the US servers is 15 VV per residue and 5 per on the RU servers.

I'm not sure if it's common knowledge but on other servers, EN is referred to as "the international server" quite often. I know I've always kinda viewed it as such. A place where players from all over can gather and share thoughts and opinions about the game.

Edit: also, as mods couldn't you answer the question for these servers ? Don't you have access to the rankings page on each EN server?
 

Far Reach

Conjurer
Im not sure I see the point in this discussion, but it made me wonder:
how much points did the max scoring Fellowship get in the last FA?
Is that already near 150K?

Top scores for the EN server are covered at the top of the relevant discussion (post #554). The highest in the last FA was 90k.

The point of the discussion was intended to be to consider which badge (or badges) ran out first when going for a high score. If properly balanced (at least for the top FWs) then the badges should all run out at a similar point. That said, the conversation has since moved in other directions
 

Gargon667

Mentor
Except the question was about "max scoring FS" which is probably not on the EN servers and yet would be interesting information to compare, no?

I agree! If we talk about max scoring FAs ALL other worlds from Russia through Germany to the US and all others in between is of interest. It would actually be very nice to get such a "list" and has been done by volunteers various times in the past.
We all can look up the 3 EN worlds by ourselfves if we wanted to know those only...
 

Gargon667

Mentor
Yes. Yes, there is.

Most badges directly or indirectly rely on resources, which can be produced in unlimited quantities using Time Boosts. Time Boosts can be stockpiled to arbitrary amounts with pre-planning or purchased with diamonds through the Magic Academy.

There are two precursors that are not a resource.

Elemental Marbles need Relics. One way to get Relics is to solve Map encounters. Which require Scouted Provinces. And I think there are a finite number of scoutable Provinces on the map. But, since you can produce Relics in the MA, this possible limit doesn't matter

Ghost in the Bottle need 3 Spire or Tourney Encounters. These are limited. There are only 16*3=48 Encounters in a Spire and 40 Encounters in a Tourney. Currently, FAs overlap with 2 Spires and 1 Tourney, so are limited to 136 Encounters per fellow, or 45 Ghosts per Fellow, or 1,125 Ghosts per Fellowship. Appropriately timed, a FA could overlap with both 2 Spires and 2 Tourneys, so an upper limit exists of 176 Encounters/F, 58 Ghosts/F, 1,450 Ghosts/FS. At 5 Ghosts per round in the pit, that's a max with current timing of 225 Pit rounds (67.5k point) or a max with optimal timing of 290 Pit rounds (87k points). Adjust that with the appropriate points earned in the three Maps with however many Ghosts as you use, and there you go.


(Edit - Oops, reduce from 40 to 30 Tourney provinces, and multiply by 6 rounds. I leave the math as an exercise for the student.)

Point 1: The two only badges that cannot be boosted are badges that are made in the tourney, bringing us back to the initial argument that tournaments are the limiting factor for high scoring FA results.

Point 2: 30 provinces (on average in a FS) in a tourney is certainly not a limit! It was just an example of something that has already been done. Since 1 town can play 75 provinces or more 6 times, so can 25 towns, which would already bring you up to more than double your limit. And that is not a limit yet either. Who says I cannot do 100 provinces? And if I can do 100 I can also do 101 and so on... The hard limit would be the age of the game. you can only scout a certain amount of provinces in a certain amount of time since the beginning of the game, but you still have to add all the time boosters available in all these years (as you can time boost provinces). We do live on a finite planet which I guess means there is always a limit to everything somewhere, but I don´t think it occurss at any point that is useful to this discussion.
 
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