Autumn Zodiac

[valle]

A lot of people writing here don't have much knowledge in statistics. You seem to think it's impossible to get the same 3 - 5 quests in a row, well it's not, it's only bad luck. Also note some of the harder quests seem to have higher chance, I saw 15% in a list earlier. Getting that quest a few times in a row will happen a lot of people.

Another point is that maybe not everyone is supposed to manage to get a fully upgraded bear. It's supposed to be a challenge and maybe you will need to have a better built city to manage it. There are often many places to improve.

 

[Muf-Muf]

It's been a while since we've had a heated discussion like this one on our forums. Thank you, everyone, for sharing your feedback on our latest event.

We've been reading along, but we've not been able to respond as much as we would've liked because boy, have the last weeks been busy. But, that doesn't mean that what you've written has gone unnoticed - quite the contrary, in fact. We'd like to take a few moments to sum up where the discussion is at, and to make sure that we've not overlooked anything important. Note: the list below is not in any particular order, nor complete. It merely attempts to mention the most-discussed points we've seen come up over the last weeks.

• By far the loudest feedback has been about the building level requirement for Workshops and Manufactories for the event quests. These have been confusing for many, and close to impossible for others to complete for a variety of reasons, including not having the buildings at the required level, and some even have replaced their Workshops with alternative buildings altogether.
• During the first days of the event, we had to make some adjustments to the event's balancing. This was necessary, but we also fully understand that this was not a nice or appreciated change. By making these changes as early as possible in the event, and keeping the changes mostly to later parts of the event, we hoped to minimize the impact. However it is obvious to everyone involved that, even with that approach, rebalancing of a running event is never nice.
• Some have a feeling that some quest conditions come up too often, to the point where it can feel like there may be something wrong (there isn't on a technical level, but that does not negate the feeling).
• The same task can occur in direct succession, even multiple times, which can get annoying especially with tasks that require a lot of time or resources (e.g. Scouting a Province, or unlocking a Technology).

We realize this is not an exhaustive list of the feedback that was gathered and forwarded, but we believe these are the main points of criticism in the discussion so far. Again, if we didn't list something that you believe to be very important, please do feel free to let us know.

Your feedback so far has been and is being heard and actively discussed within the team, and has been for weeks. We cannot tell you that enough, and it important to us that you know this is going on - even if there are no direct posts on the forums. Several changes have already been made to cater to your feedback, and more are being considered for upcoming events (details pending). We want our events to be as enjoyable as possible, and for that we ask you to keep providing us with your (preferably constructive) feedback.

It is important for us to repeat that we ask to please keep the discussion civil. We know that this is a very important topic to many of you (and it is to us, too), and in order to get the best ideas and suggestions, and the most fruitful discussions, we should discuss rather than flame each other. Let's try to stick to the topic of the event, without getting personal.

So, to kick that off, please continue conversation with the following questions in mind:

1. WHAT is it that you do not like exactly, and WHY?
2. HOW can we improve that for you? Give us your ideas and suggestions!

We're very much looking forward to hearing more of your feedback!

 

[Killiak]

The other issue with this type of event, as Valle also hits upon, is that it depends very much on luck. If you hit the easier quests at the start more, by mere chance, you have more keys to use for time instants, which can help you get past a bad case of the harder quests repeating.
However, if you have hit those hard quests a lot at the start, it will slow you down more which leads to having less resources throughout the rest of the event.

Over the course of an entire event, some people will fall on the bad side of the Bell curve, whereas some lucky ones fall on the side. Now, if the curve is very skewed, that might just lead to less enjoyment and the discontent we are currently seeing. Seems more people found the forum to tell us if their discontent, as well.

I can only hope that Inno is keeping track of the numbers, and is interpreting those in the same way we are; not the best event ever

 

[Killiak]

So, to kick that off, please continue conversation with the following questions in mind:

1. WHAT is it that you do not like exactly, and WHY?
2. HOW can we improve that for you? Give us your ideas and suggestions!

We're very much looking forward to hearing more of your feedback!

WHAT is it that you do not like exactly, and WHY?
- I severely dislike the need to have higher leveled manufactories and workshops. It forces a certain kind of city building, meaning creative solutions and designs are punished in this way, whilst such creativity was made possible by Inno in the first place (due to specific buildings, sets etc). This goes against the spirit of the game, which is really about building YOUR city instead of a copy-paste of everybody else's.

- I do believe that Marindor (on beta) mentioned that the choice for higher leveled manufactories was made due to feedback on how masses of level 1 buildings during events/FA etc. is hindering our city progress. However, I disagree with the interpretation of said earlier feedback; it was not about needing to build so many tiny buildings, that feedback was about having so many events back-to-back. You never get the chance to just relax and enjoy your city building for a week or two, since we are constantly resetting our cities and prepping for the next happening. That's what truly hinders city progress, imo.

So I guess that's 2 dislikes, which are somewhat connected.


- The event is very much luck-based. If you are short on luck, and get a lot of hard quests after one another, you are going to grind down to a halt and make the event feel like a bad slog, only costing you resources and increasing frustration. Especially so when you see others just rake in the rewards. This disparity on the Bell curve will only hurt player enjoyment, as well as the willingness to continue playing (events).

- One other thing that keeps bothering me the most is that the Devs are STILL making quests that focus on scouting, encounters and province completion. We were told that we had over-scouted and over-completed on the world map, yet the events are forcing our hand on this continuously. In this specific event, this issue was caught in the beta, and a Vision Vapour alternative was added.
However, in previous events there was no alternative! I firmly think that this way of thinking needs to change at the Dev-level, otherwise we will keep seeing people getting stuck in events or otherwise run out of resources too much during events.

- Less of an issue, but a growing one, is the "Buy X KP" quests. Not everybody will have the resources to keep doing this, and the costs of a single kp will just keep rising forever. Stop doing quests without an alternative, and stop doing quests where the costs of said quest can never be reset .


HOW can we improve that for you? Give us your ideas and suggestions!
Well, for me personally there is not much to do. I am at the end-game and I have the space and activity level to manage during events like these.

As I already said, this time and before;
- Stop doing quests without an alternative, and stop doing quests where the costs of said quest can never be reset.

- Reduce the numbers of consecutive events. There's too many of them, it causes stress and annoyance, and reduces the enjoyment and desire to play. Less frustrated players might actually be better for your bottom line in the long run.

- The luck-based component of the event really stands out to me. Of course, some bit of luck should remain, as it is actually sort of exciting when opening chests and hoping for a bit more luck on the next chest and so on. However, in the recent events this component is also active in the quest selection, which I think is really putting a negative spin on the enjoyment of the event. Combined with the endless aspect, it seems to push all the wrong buttons for players.
So, why not combine it? Make the first section of quests fixed, and thus they can be planned for, and once a certain point is reached they switch over to truly random quests with an endless aspect.
The benefit of this solution is that you can better plan for reward-gain for the average player, whereas the highly active and willing can carry on into infinity. Duly note that I am personally in favor of capping out the evolving grand prizes, or set grand prizes, so the "infinity-rewards" should really not contain infinite numbers of those.

 

[hawk the slayer]

I'm with Killiak on the "luck" thing. Luck should not play a part in the quest system. Yes, the quests should become more challenging as you progress but there is nothing challenging about watching a timer count down for days on end just because you were unlucky.

 

[Timneh]

I 100% agree with @Killiak . The need for buildings to be a certain minimum level means that players can no longer keep them at a certain level if they like the look of them which in turn helps with not all cities looking the same. The lack of advanced notice was a big problem for some players as well, in future if the devs make big changes like that again they should give players a decent amount of time to prepare.
Players should be on a level playing field and that certainly does not seem to be the case with these so called random quests with some people getting back to back long quests and others getting back to back shorter quests, the players getting shorter quests will be able to do more quests and therefore get more keys and more artifacts so that needs to be looked at.

 

[Pauly7]

Thank you for getting involved @Muf-Muf and going some way to show that we are being listened to.

The points that you have already summed up seem accurate, though for me the glaring thing that is missing is the whole notion of endless quests. I believe that quests should be finite and it should be a game with an end point. This will stop the very rich having too massive an advantage, it will keep the average player sane and will stop people losing all their time on resources due to the fear of missing out and not being shown a clear end point.

 

[EdwardTrunk]

Killiak has pretty much said everything I would have wanted to say. Putting all the finer points to one side, and I recognise that many people might like how things are currently, but the continuous back to back events - FA, Challenges, Events etc - have made the game feel more like a job than a source of escape and relaxation for me and the nett result of all this is that overall I really don't enjoy playing the game any more. Of course, it could be said that no-one is forced to participate in all these events but then it's not a particularly enjoyable experience simply declining to participate on a regular basis and eventually you start to question why you're bothering at all.

 

[DeletedUser8409]

Cons:
1: Manufactory/Workshop of current level requirement.
2: Consecutive repeated quests
3: Luck

Pros:
1: Endless quest system to win more rewards.
2: Listening to feedback on Magic Workshops although hopefully current level workshop restrictions will be axed.
3: No complete province quests.

Suggestions:
1: Either revert to any level of workshop or manufactory or replace quests with produce X goods/supplies and let the player choose how to meet that target using any building.
2: Some sort of loop system for quests like Mermaids would provide more fairness and balance. Although having said that luck played a major part in Mermaids too.

 

[Fyrebird]

• WHAT is it that you do not like exactly, and WHY?

• HOW can we improve that for you? Give us your ideas and suggestions!

Point 1: If random is random then why are we not getting duplicate quests of the short workshop or T1 productions as per your quest list? If TRULY random then the range of duplicates would be spread across a variety of quests, not just the long, time consuming or expensive ones. There is simply not enough variety of beneficial quests, only tasks (it appears) designed to slow us down. Our smaller players are struggling with resources enough as it is, now they are forced to over scout and over spend.

Point 2: A great variety of quests that include helpful tasks such as using our enchantments, visiting neighbors, encouraging resource trade, kp trading, upgrading buildings and generally aiding our city and fellowship building. Tasks that encourage us to explore the game and find the fun in that discovery. Even silly ones like send a mail or write in chat that would encourage team participation

 

[DeletedUser9227]

Just want to add one more point about scouting quest. It's not this quest alone that I have to scout, there are also "gain 11 relics" and "complete 9 encounters" quests. On off-tournament days I have no alternative but to scout.
I always kept my completed provinces at minimum requirement for each chapter and be able to do so until this event. With 10 days to go, I over scout already.

 

[DeletedUser8409]

Point 1: If random is random then why are we not getting duplicate quests of the short workshop or T1 productions as per your quest list? If TRULY random then the range of duplicates would be spread across a variety of quests, not just the long, time consuming or expensive ones. There is simply not enough variety of beneficial quests, only tasks (it appears) designed to slow us down. Our smaller players are struggling with resources enough as it is, now they are forced to over scout and over spend.

Point 2: A great variety of quests that include helpful tasks such as using our enchantments, visiting neighbors, encouraging resource trade, kp trading, upgrading buildings and generally aiding our city and fellowship building. Tasks that encourage us to explore the game and find the fun in that discovery. Even silly ones like send a mail or write in chat that would encourage team participation

1. The tasks are random but weighted.

2. Apart from upgrading (which amusingly people complain about when it is a demand) none of them are challenging or difficult. The devs are looking for challenging quests not easy ones if you have more challenging suggestions they'd probably be more likely to be adopted.

 

[Hekata]

I agree with all that @Killiak said. I would just like to emphasise some more the problem of the random quest system:

WHAT is it that you do not like exactly, and WHY?
1. as people have already said since it's based on luck it is not always fair as some will get more of the easier quests and some more of the difficult ones.
2. planing for events was one of the most enjoyable parts of the game for most players and that has been taken away. A game is supposed to be enjoyable and fun in the first place otherwise who would want to play it?
3. the random quests destroy the balance of our cities. We don't know what we are going to get next so me have goods and supplies productions just waiting there in case we need them.
4. the possibility to get the same quests x time in a row is a both boring and a problem. And not just the same quests but quests that require you to use the same resources: getting solve 45/9 or gain 11 relics is the same quest as it requires you mostly to complete the same tasks. This also contributes to ruining the balance of our cities as I mentioned above. A quest that requires of you to spend resources, like this one, should be followed by a quest that requires of you to make them to keep some sort of balance.


HOW can we improve that for you?

Bring back the possibility of planning for events in some form. There have been many suggestions in this thread. As Killiak said we can have a fixed number of quests (100 or so) and then the random ones for those who want to go beyond. Or give us again 2 quest lines, one that we can plan and the other random. Or make a quest system similar to the one that we have now in FA. Or at least let us see the next 5 quests... (all options that have already been suggested here).

I don't like the random system at all but if it has to be implemented then please find a way to give us some balance between what we can plan and what we can't, as planning was one of the most enjoyable aspects of this game. And also please take your time with the next event. Just work on it until you get the right balance and let us build our cities and enjoy our new prizes because we have been begging for some time to breath for a long while now.

And thank you for letting us know you are listening to us @Muf-Muf

 

[Fyrebird]

The devs are looking for challenging quests not easy ones if you have more challenging suggestions they'd probably be more likely to be adopted.

I'm not saying easy, I'm saying beneficial. Do you imply that only expensive, wasteful quests can be challenging? (i currently have about 6 provinces that are scouted but not needing to be conquered due to the excessive 'scout a province quest'... why???!!)
How about visit 150 neighbors, place 100 trades, accept 100 trades, put 100kp into a wonder (yours or others), upgrade 10 buildings, post 50 times in chat (okay for some of us that may be easy ), enchant 50 buildings, train 1000 archers/crossbowman/sorceress/priest, increase your culture by x, increase your population by x, feed your pet x times. And why not have options that include T2 productions, eg gain x from T1 OR T2 boosted manufactory? The reasoning has been newer cities not able, but plenty on current quests require a magic academy and new players don't have that.

 

[Timneh]

WHAT is it that you do not like exactly, and WHY?

The endless quests is something i don't like. If i understand what i have read correctly endless quests were introduced so that players could not rush through all the quests in a few days and then complain that the event was over for them. The endless quest list means that players can now keep doing quests for the entire lenght of the event so that adresses that point. The endless quests also mean that players can earn almost unlimited event currency and therefore get multiple main prizes which made the devs start running around in circles shouting that players were winning too many prizes. I'm sorry but that was a mess that they made and in trying to fix it are making other problems.
If they think back to how events were when they first started them we did not have problems of players winning too much because there was only a certain amount to win. The people that complained about doing all the quests in 3 or 4 days, well that was nobodys fault but their own, no one made them build loads of L1 buildings and no one made them look at spoiler sheets and prepare things in advance.
I know that the devs are going to keep this new quest system but i don't know how they are going to fix the problems and still make it fair for all players.

 

[DeletedUser8409]

I'm not saying easy, I'm saying beneficial. Do you imply that only expensive, wasteful quests can be challenging? (i currently have about 6 provinces that are scouted but not needing to be conquered due to the excessive 'scout a province quest'... why???!!)
How about visit 150 neighbors, place 100 trades, accept 100 trades, put 100kp into a wonder (yours or others), upgrade 10 buildings, post 50 times in chat (okay for some of us that may be easy ), enchant 50 buildings, train 1000 archers/crossbowman/sorceress/priest, increase your culture by x, increase your population by x, feed your pet x times. And why not have options that include T2 productions, eg gain x from T1 OR T2 boosted manufactory? The reasoning has been newer cities not able, but plenty on current quests require a magic academy and new players don't have that.

Let's not encourage spam! 50 messages isn't fun it's spam.

The post a few trades quest normally for good reason appears at the beginning of the event not the end of it. Because it's a ludicrously easy quest.

Feeding pet food for a quest would be incredibly wasteful. More than any amount of provinces.

 

[DeletedUser6046]

HOW can we improve that for you? Give us your ideas and suggestions!

Here are a few suggested improvements based on other people's posts and my experience:

1. Limit the number of quests a player can do. Preferably, run the whole event on beta first with an unlimited number of quests and see how many quests on average a player needs to do in order to evolve, say, two evolving buildings. Let's say you discover that on average a player needs to do 500 quests to achieve this goal. Then run the event on live servers with a cap on the number of quests that is, say, 80% of 500, i.e. 400 quests maximum. When you announce the event explain how many buildings an average player is expected to get evolved to level 10. If you worry that all daily rewards will be revealed in advance before the event starts on the live servers then change their order when the event goes live.

2. Include a few simple checks to see if a quest is doable within 24h. That is, make sure you don't ask a player to complete a quest that is impossible to complete within 24h. Having such quests is a major source of frustration. For example, when there is no tournament running, do not ask players whose scouting time is longer than 24h gain 11 relics. Stop doing that 24h before the end of the tournament. Offer them a random quest from a pool of quests that can be completed within 24h.

3. Do not ask people to produce specific goods in T1 factories and workshops. Instead, ask for amounts of goods. For example, instead of asking to produce 5 toolboxes, ask to produce a certain amount of supplies depending on the chapter of the player.

4. Increase the variety of quests. Depending on the chapter of a player ask them to produce T2, T3, sentient goods, orcs, mana, seeds, etc. We all produce these goods every day, so why not include them in the quest for people who have reached the chapter after the one that allows their production?

5. Allow people to see what is the next quest. If you implement point 2 then that should run smoothly.

6. Have a few "easy" quests that can appear any number of times (like buy or spend 20 KPs) and have a cap on the number of times harder quests can appear. If that maximum number is reached for a player then remove that quest from the pool of quests for that player.

 

[Fyrebird]

Let's not encourage spam! 50 messages isn't fun it's spam.

When 2 people are doing it in real life its called a conversation, i recommend trying it some day

 

[Deleted User - 1759805]

When 2 people are doing it in real life its called a conversation, i recommend trying it some day

When at least one party in the conversation is compensated on a per-message basis (that's effectively a proposal), then this would be called spam in real life just as well.

 

[Timneh]

Post 50 times in chat.

Without the chat feature in the app that quest could not be done by app only players and on pc it would just encourage players to type random characters and hit enter 50 times to complete the quest so i think that idea is a non starter.